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  • #46
    Wow... I didn't realize Florida was so behind-the-times on this issue... Up here in the PNW, armed security doesn't have any restrictions on weapon type like that... It's up to the Officer's discretion whether they want to carry a revolver or a semiauto... Training is available for both, although most instructors highly recommend against revolvers... And the states don't differentiate between the two with different licenses or anything... Either you're certified to carry, or you're not... I guess I've been taking things for granted up here..

    Be safe guys!
    Corbier's Commandos - "Stickin it to the ninjas!"
    Originally posted by ValleyOne
    BANG, next thing you know Bob's your Uncle and this Sgt is seemingly out on his a$$.
    Shoulda called in sick.
    Be safe!

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    • #47
      As some of you may of read, Florida uses alot of stopgap legislation in the security industry. A security officer is prohibited (I checked) from using force to remove/prevent someone from committing an offense against the property, only crimes against persons. An in-house security officer, of course, may use force to remove/prevent someone from committing an offense against the property.

      Florida considers "force" to be any level of force, including verbal. So, you could lose your license and possibly go to jail for assault/battery (FSS 493 made it illegal, so 776 no longer applies) for standing in front of an entrance to bar access to a building where a trespasser is no longer welcome, or having to grab and escort them out of the building. Also, too, does this mean that the guy stealing from the site? You can't touch him. Even if its posted as a felony construction site. If he attacks you, then you may touch him.

      I think the police stopped carrying revolvers in the 1970s. So, with a 40 year gap... What else will happen to security in Florida in 40 years, that happened to police 40 years ago?

      Take heart, though, Congress is starting to believe that DHS needs to set nationwide standards for unarmed and armed security officers, special police, etc.
      Some Kind of Commando Leader

      "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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      • #48
        actuaal ive asked the state about tthat and if its a felony u can still detain even if its a construction site
        "Get yourself a shovel cause your in deep Sh*t"

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        • #49
          As a hunter and a security guard,I am more than a little miffed by the crack about"insane hunters".Unless you are a licensed psychiatrist,you shouldn't be deciding if anyone is insane.
          Now,around where I am from,hunters are far more reasonable to deal with armed than most people you see driving down the road.You do have a few that don't abide by trespassing signs and get uppity when the game warden braces them about their license or lack thereof but they are few and far between.
          If a security guard is having problems bigger than they have training and equipment for,they need to be more concerned with a "tactical retreat" and letting the Fish and Wildlife people,State Police or County Sheriff handle it.Have enough firepower to help survive the encounter but don't expect your guards to fight to the death over someone else's property.Not unless your contract included a resurrection clause to bring them back.

          Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
          defend against insane hunters. ).

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          • #50
            I've never had trouble with my Ruger GP 100 .357 magnum.Tennessee allows any caliber that the police can carry but most guard companies go with revolvers on grounds that it's easier to load six from someone else's belt if you need it than to strip out a magazine because you carry a Colt and the other guard has a Smith and Wesson.
            I even used a 20 Mossberg 500 Camper with an aftermarket stock for my shotgun.The boss laughed when I broke it out at qualifying but when he noticed I was faster back on target,he decided it would be a good idea to try.

            Originally posted by Echos13
            Got my 9mm carry not to shortly there after. Now, if they would just let us carry a .40 or a .45. I have had my eye on a nice glock .40 for a long time.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by doughesson
              As a hunter and a security guard,I am more than a little miffed by the crack about"insane hunters".Unless you are a licensed psychiatrist,you shouldn't be deciding if anyone is insane.
              Now,around where I am from,hunters are far more reasonable to deal with armed than most people you see driving down the road.You do have a few that don't abide by trespassing signs and get uppity when the game warden braces them about their license or lack thereof but they are few and far between.
              If a security guard is having problems bigger than they have training and equipment for,they need to be more concerned with a "tactical retreat" and letting the Fish and Wildlife people,State Police or County Sheriff handle it.Have enough firepower to help survive the encounter but don't expect your guards to fight to the death over someone else's property.Not unless your contract included a resurrection clause to bring them back.
              Not sure where you are, but we had a man kill 6 others in our state over a trespassing incident. They were unarmed. I do, in fact, expect people to "fight to the death," to protect themselves in a rapidly devolving incident. A "tactical retreat" is extremely difficult when dealing with someone who has a scoped rifle and is used to engaging moving targets. Four people tried to run away in Wisconsin. They were shot in the back.

              "Insane hunter" is a colloquialism. They may be mentally unstable, for which a trained professional will be able to recongize indicators of mental instability. Of course, not all states give this training, nor do security guards believe they need it. The police didn't think they needed it, till states started passing laws requiring it - the police were having normal interactions with the mentally unstable turn into lethal force incidents regularly in an extremely rapid fashion. Or, they could simply be your run of the mill murderer. In either case, if your sending someone into an enviornment to managed a known factor (everyone else is armed), they should have the tools to defend themselves and dominate any threat.
              Some Kind of Commando Leader

              "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Crinsol
                As a professional forum, I would like to suggest that we keep exagerations and non-fact to a minimum. I realize that this is not my forum.

                People typically come to a forum like this to learn, and putting out random garble on a serious question makes us look bad.

                So to put things into perspective-the data shows that there is not much difference between 9mm, 40, .357, .45 etc. To say that a 9mm from a submachine gun is more deadly than that same round fired from a handgun is inaccurate. To say that a .357 will blow a hole the size of a basketball is inaccurate.

                M = bullet weight in grains
                V = bullet speed in feet per second
                ft. lbs. energy = M * V^2 / 450400.

                For example a 230g .45 at 860 fps is: 230 * 860^2 / 450400 = 378 ft. lbs.
                A 185g .45 at 1000 fps is: 185 * 1000^2 / 450400 = 411 ft. lbs.
                A 124g 9mm +P at 1200 fps is: 124 * 1200^2 / 450400 = 396 ft. lbs.
                A 165g .40 at 1050 fps is: 404 ft. lbs.

                This means that most handgun rounds are in the 400 ft. lbs range give or take a few.

                I am by no means an ammo expert but simple research can be done.

                Handgun choice is all about preference. A .45 out of a Glock, SIG, 1911 is still a .45.

                Rant off.
                Although I believe Mr. Crinsol is correct about doing the simple research, I believe the formulas listed above may be a little too simple. Those numbers were hatched in a laboratory, the offspring of a shooting bench and the gelatine mold of a human torso. The numbers may be scientifically accurate, but they miss the mark on many levels. No pun intended.

                Not shown in those figures are many environmental and human conditions. 100% humidity or below freezing, fatigue, hunger/thirst, heat mirages, layers of clothing worn in temperate climate, body armor, and an enemy who thinks nothing of hiding behind an innocent child........I could go on for awhile.

                Most importantly, those figures don't calculate confidence. The confidence of a young Trooper having been forced to go to his sidearm, who is tasked with door-kicking his way into a room filled with multiple moving blurrs. There is an immeasurable level of confidence knowing you can single or 2-tap one target, drop that target, and move on to the next threat. For the sake of argument, maybe that confidence is just a false sense of security, but it's still security. And it may buy you that fraction of a second that counts the most. I said this earlier, the 45 drops bad guys, and I meant it.

                Recently, Soldiers from the 101st Airborne preparing for an upcoming Iraq deployment submitted a formal request to the Army for a replacement of their current-issue M-9 Beretta's (9 mm) for the older Colt model 45. This would require a huge logistical undertaking, so the request was not submitted or received lightly. The Soldiers that made this request were often facing their 2nd and 3rd tours overseas. They know what works, and they know what they need. This wasn't some hair brain scheme hatched up by a private who read the latest 9 mm vs. 45 debate in Guns&Ammo. These are battle tested Troops with battle proven methods. Fortunately, their Commander knew enough to listen to the Troops, and not some desk-jockey who just did the simple research.

                I'm not so naieve to believe that private security folks face the same day to day threat as our Uniformed Service members. However, no one should prepare for their shift by going with the cheaper weapon, and HOPING not to get into a firefight. Hope is not a method. The old, time-tested wisdom: It's better to properly prepare for battle, and never face it, than to face the battle unprepared.
                Last edited by jimmyhat; 12-20-2005, 12:21 AM.

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                • #53
                  Jimmyhat, some of our soldiers asking for .45s were caught up in a political vortex relating back to the freeing of an Army two star general in Italy.
                  Enjoyed reading these responses. A lot of thought went into them. Professionalism at its finest.
                  Enjoy the day,
                  Bill

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                  • #54
                    As an SPO (Special Police Officer) in Washington DC I carried a 38. City rules, all Special Police Officers have to carry a 38. Revolver.

                    As a SPO in Maryland I carried a Glock 19

                    When I was doing Private Force Protection Security in the Middle East we carried M9 Berettas + 3 mags, Select Fire M4?s some with m203 grenade launchers, SAW?s (squad automatic weapons) with 200 round belts, and we manned ?gun pods? with M60?s and 50 cals.

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                    • #55
                      pop gun with a note that comes out of the barrel and says "bang"

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by mallpopo
                        pop gun with a note that comes out of the barrel and says "bang"
                        You need to upgrade to at least a cap gun, or we're going to have to take your weapon away.
                        Some Kind of Commando Leader

                        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                          You need to upgrade to at least a cap gun, or we're going to have to take your weapon away.
                          That's hilarious. I love it
                          Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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                          • #58
                            Just look at a .45 cartridge. Then look at a 9mm cartridge. The difference is pretty substantial. The standard FMJ rounds you buy for a 9mm are 115 gr. The standard FMJ rounds you buy for a .45 are 230 gr. That's twice the weight. Let's get real here. A .45 is going to hit harder and leave a bigger hole. It's like the difference between being stabbed by a pocket knife and a broadsword.
                            10-8

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Taser
                              Just look at a .45 cartridge. Then look at a 9mm cartridge. The difference is pretty substantial. The standard FMJ rounds you buy for a 9mm are 115 gr. The standard FMJ rounds you buy for a .45 are 230 gr. That's twice the weight. Let's get real here. A .45 is going to hit harder and leave a bigger hole. It's like the difference between being stabbed by a pocket knife and a broadsword.
                              .45 cartridges with standard FMJ also have a stronger chance of "pass-through". I hope you don't work in any heavily populated areas, because when you discharge a .45 it won't be stopping for awhile.

                              With that said, I can kill you just as easily with a pen knife than I can kill you with a broadsword.

                              Remember, a .45 and 9mm kill just the same. They both leave holes in suspects, even though one may be bigger than the other.
                              Last edited by davis002; 01-10-2006, 07:41 PM.
                              "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

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                              • #60
                                I'm leaning towards a list approach. Purchasing S&W 9mm, as most of the people around here are certified with "9mm semiautomatic," and the state requires you use as an employee whatever the certification says. Some are qualified with "Semiautomatic Pistol," which means they can carry anything. Others, which gives me a slight hope, are qualified with "M4A3 Rifle," and "5.56mm NATO Semi-Automatic Rifle." I'd rather have an employee qualified with the 5.56 NATO, since Colt M4A3s are EXPENSIVE, and I like Bushmaster anyway.

                                But, the list would authorize most major brands, such as Glock, Sig (Someone has to be able to afford Sig Pro), Colt, Kimber, S&W, Walther, etc, with specific rules, such as DAO mode only, or DECOCKER ONLY.

                                Still have to play with "which is liablity conscious," and which is "This will get you killed."
                                Some Kind of Commando Leader

                                "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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