Armed Officers: What type of weapon?

[jimmyhat]

This is from a former Marine first sergeant long read but thought you might be interested in his son's assessment of weapons and enemy tactics in Iraq (the boy is home from his first tour, going back in early 2006, and early re-enlisted for another 4 years.). I left the wording intact, but emphasized various items. A weapon good enough for war overseas, might just be good enough for the homeland.

Assessments of US and Insurgent weapons, tactics, and small nuggets of information (like the fun fact noted under the M-16 reviewthat is the reason, during the US-Philippines/Moro action in the early 20th Centruy why we developed the .45 Cal pistolapparently being reissued as noted below amongst several other weapons).

1) The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys hit multiple times and still in the fight.

2) The .45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol round out there. Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one. With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put 'em down with a torso hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK military model and supposedly love it. The old government model .45's are being re-issued en masse.

3) The M-14: Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a modified version to special ops guys. Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.

4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun: Works well, used frequently for clearing houses to good effect.

15) Lights: Thumbs up. Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are Surefire's, and the troops love 'em. Invaluable for night urban operations. Jordan carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it.

[N. A. Corbier]

I personally think the .45 is a great round, the only problem is not everyone has the hand strength to control a weapon chambered in it, and not everyone wants to carry a weapon that's as heavy as a .45 caliber pistol.

That's my problem. You get someone who can't handle the recoil, and they fatigue quickly when they really need that weapon. Or, you get to the point where they're forgetting their weapon when going to the post, tired of carrying 6 pounds of pistol on their hip.

[Bill Warnock]

The reason we have the 9mm from Beretta was in thanks to the Italian Government for hostage release of a two star general seized by the Red Brigade. When hit by the .45 you go down. We are finding that out the hard way. Compare the 1911A1 Colt .45 to the P220 Sig .45 and you notice there is much less recoil and easier sight realignment.
The Marines gave up the M-14 after much protest.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[N. A. Corbier]

I seriously need to get my hands on a Sig for T&E. Of course, we're talking about an 800 dollar weapon, locally at retail stores. I'm looking, of course, for non-abused used weapons at gun shows, but that's alot like looking on ebay - you get what they give, and nothing more.

I had the misfortune of firing a compact Para .45. This weapon bit the hell out of my hand, and it was extremely discomfortable to finish putting 50 rounds through it, as I am wont to do when playing around or testing or whatever with a pistol. To me, a compact carry weapon is nice, and all, but if you can't shoot the thing, its worthless. I'm also going to find a place that rents Glocks, just so I have more than 1 firing experience with one. You know, one that actually works this time.

Nobody can argue the effectiveness of the .45 caliber pistol. It stops people - period. When I was growing up, my father ensured that I fired a 1911 at the age of 10, in case I ever had to use it to defend myself in the house if he was shot or otherwise hurt by an attacker. The rounds were almost subsonic, he used hand loads that were in the 700 fps range, and you could almost see the bullet in flight. But, at 10, I put the rounds in the black, all 7. That's all it took. That's what I'm after in a weapon. I give it to someone, and they can put rounds in the black, the entire magazine, under duress, and the rounds stop the bad guy. That's all I ask.

[SeanCO]

I seriously need to get my hands on a Sig for T&E. Of course, we're talking about an 800 dollar weapon, locally at retail stores. I'm looking, of course, for non-abused used weapons at gun shows, but that's alot like looking on ebay - you get what they give, and nothing more.

I had the misfortune of firing a compact Para .45. This weapon bit the hell out of my hand, and it was extremely discomfortable to finish putting 50 rounds through it, as I am wont to do when playing around or testing or whatever with a pistol. To me, a compact carry weapon is nice, and all, but if you can't shoot the thing, its worthless. I'm also going to find a place that rents Glocks, just so I have more than 1 firing experience with one. You know, one that actually works this time.

Nobody can argue the effectiveness of the .45 caliber pistol. It stops people - period. When I was growing up, my father ensured that I fired a 1911 at the age of 10, in case I ever had to use it to defend myself in the house if he was shot or otherwise hurt by an attacker. The rounds were almost subsonic, he used hand loads that were in the 700 fps range, and you could almost see the bullet in flight. But, at 10, I put the rounds in the black, all 7. That's all it took. That's what I'm after in a weapon. I give it to someone, and they can put rounds in the black, the entire magazine, under duress, and the rounds stop the bad guy. That's all I ask.

You may want to try a Sprinfield XD, they make it in a .45 GAP, .40, and 9mm. Now I am a 1911 guy to the bone, but my company at this point wont allow cocked and locked . I tried Glock and they are OK, but the Sprinfield is the best of both worlds, feels better, and even has the 1911 grip safety. I am thinking of getting a Para LDA though, as I was told that would be OK.

[N. A. Corbier]

They make Springfield XDs in anything but .45? Heh. Added to the list of things to play with.

[DMS 525]

I am not too crazy about 9mm handguns. I've seen where they are weak at stopping someone. They are pretty good as a submachinegun round, but as a pistol round, they miss the mark. I did have a 9mm for a while, but i got disenchanted with it, so I went back to carrying my original weapon of choice: a .357 Magnum.
At the risk of sounding like Eugene Tackleberry, a revolver holds only six shots, but in a .357, if you need more than that, you're in some major trouble! One shot will blow a hole in an adversary as big as a basketball, and usually stop them with one shot. With speedloaders and using proper techniques, you can have a revolver reloaded again in under 6 seconds.

Not like I am against autoloaders. I carried a .45 in the Army. And I like all I have read about the .40 S&W round. Nice for one or two shot stops. If I buy another autoloader, it'll be a .40 cal.

But keep in mind: There once was a time I rolled on a call to help a fellow officer in need. When I arrived on the scene, my cute little handgun stayed in it's cute little holster, and the 12 gauge shotgun came out! When I jacked a shell in the chamber, it brought that situation to a sudden stop, and they all scattered for the hills!

[OccamsRazor]

Glock 22 (.40) on duty, Glock 27 (.40) off (no backups allowed )

As a cop, I also carried the Rem 870 12 gauge, and a Mini-14. For awhile, I carried a friend's DPMS 'KittyKat' for an entry weapon.

[Crinsol]

As a professional forum, I would like to suggest that we keep exagerations and non-fact to a minimum. I realize that this is not my forum.

People typically come to a forum like this to learn, and putting out random garble on a serious question makes us look bad.

So to put things into perspective-the data shows that there is not much difference between 9mm, 40, .357, .45 etc. To say that a 9mm from a submachine gun is more deadly than that same round fired from a handgun is inaccurate. To say that a .357 will blow a hole the size of a basketball is inaccurate.

M = bullet weight in grains
V = bullet speed in feet per second
ft. lbs. energy = M * V^2 / 450400.

For example a 230g .45 at 860 fps is: 230 * 860^2 / 450400 = 378 ft. lbs.
A 185g .45 at 1000 fps is: 185 * 1000^2 / 450400 = 411 ft. lbs.
A 124g 9mm +P at 1200 fps is: 124 * 1200^2 / 450400 = 396 ft. lbs.
A 165g .40 at 1050 fps is: 404 ft. lbs.

This means that most handgun rounds are in the 400 ft. lbs range give or take a few.

I am by no means an ammo expert but simple research can be done.

Handgun choice is all about preference. A .45 out of a Glock, SIG, 1911 is still a .45.

Rant off.

[DMS 525]

Sorry, Crinsol. Just basing my way of looking at it from actual footage and pictures I have seen, that's all. And it was no exaggeration: I saw a photo of a guy who was hit in the chest with a .357 Magnum- the exit wound was in fact close to 20" in circumfrence, which is about the same as that of a basketball. Not a pretty sight.

There is no one good "miracle gun" out there. With so many variables out there, one just never knows what to expect.

I've seen a deer drop dead from one shot from a .22, when another time a .357 didn't stop one right away. You just never know.

[bumpo]

I have my training for armed security, but there is no one local hiring. So I don't have my G security license yet .

If I move to a city where I find work doing armed security. I would probably use my Ruger GP-100 loaded with .38 special. I could use my Glock 19, but due to Florida restricting ammo to FMJ 9mm or solid .38. I'm nervous about overpenetration from a FMJ 9mm bullet.

Off duty I carry my G19, or Springfield mil-spec 1911. I B.U.G. a Rossi .38 snubby.

[N. A. Corbier]

I have my training for armed security, but there is no one local hiring. So I don't have my G security license yet .

If I move to a city where I find work doing armed security. I would probably use my Ruger GP-100 loaded with .38 special. I could use my Glock 19, but due to Florida restricting ammo to FMJ 9mm or solid .38. I'm nervous about overpenetration from a FMJ 9mm bullet.

Off duty I carry my G19, or Springfield mil-spec 1911. I B.U.G. a Rossi .38 snubby.

Um, I don't seem to remember Florida Administrative Code prohibiting JHP in .38 caliber or 9mm. If there was, then my previous employer's entire company was in violation of FSS (by violating the appropriate FAC), and so was just about every company in the Tampa Bay region.

The only rules I remember was that it must be factory ammunition, may not be full wadcutter, semi-wadcutter, glazier or frang rounds, or reloads. If it was factory "police-type" ammunition, you were good to go.

[bumpo]

The only rules I remember was that it must be factory ammunition, may not be full wadcutter, semi-wadcutter, glazier or frang rounds, or reloads. If it was factory "police-type" ammunition, you were good to go.

Hmm... Thats hhat my G license instructor told me.
I'm checking my hard copy of the 493., and it said under 493.6115(6)
"License may carry is a .38 or .357 caliber revolver with .38 factory .38 caliber ammunition only. In addition to any other firearm approved by the department, a Class "C" and Class "MA" licensee who has been issued a Class "G" license may carry a .38 caliber revolver; or a .380 caliber or 9 millimeter semiautomatic pistol; or a .357 caliber revolver with .38 caliber ammunition only. A Class "C" licensee who also holds a Class "D" license, and who has been issued a Class "G" license, may carry a 9 millimeter semiautomatic pistol while preforming security-related services."

Seems my instructor doesn't know what he was talking about. Or the 493 the instructor gave me is out of date.
Whatever the case Ill know for sure if or when I do G license work.

P.S. Factory doesn't mean FMJ. Thanks for correcting me.

[bumpo]

I was searching more and came across this story.

artical link

Florida security officers can soon upgrade firepower
Thanks to a Pinellas officer, guards will be able to use semiautomatic handguns.
By ALEX LEARY, Times Staff Writer
Published May 27, 2005

Security officer Will Holcomb has heard them all: keychain cop, flashlight cop, rent-a-cop. He's seen the cartoons of the old-timer in the gatehouse either watching TV or snoozing.
But the realities of his job, he says, are vastly different. While patrolling a subsidized housing complex in Clearwater, Holcomb has encountered men beating their wives, teens shooting heroin in stairwells, car thefts.
A few years ago when he was working at a shopping center in St. Petersburg, a teenager pulled a gun on him.
In times fraught with such risks, Holcomb, 45, wonders why he carries a dinosaur on his hip - a .38-caliber Smith & Wesson revolver with a wood grip.
"There's nothing wrong with the revolver," he says. "Just like there's nothing wrong with a manual transmission. But I drive an automatic."
Now, after Holcomb's intensive lobbying effort, thousands of security officers in Florida, from the guards at supermarkets and jewelry stores to those at interstate rest stops, soon can trade in their revolvers for semiautomatic handguns.
Lawmakers overwhelmingly approved a bill this spring supporting the move and Gov. Jeb Bush signed it into law on Thursday. It goes into effect July 1.
"Since armed security officers face the same threats as public law enforcement officers," Holcomb said, "shouldn't they be allowed modern weapons?"
Critics question whether better firepower is necessary. "The guns are just too fast-acting and in the hands of people who have minimal training," said state Sen. Gwen Margolis, D-Miami Beach, who was one of only two lawmakers to oppose the bill. "It just didn't seem right to me."
Advocates say semiautomatics are more accurate because there is less recoil when a shot is fired and the grip is more ergonomic. The guns can also be reloaded much faster. Continuity is another cited justification. Many security officers enter the field from the military, where they are trained to use semiautomatics, such as a 9mm.
Revolvers, Holcomb said, are "a whole different skill set. Especially the reloading where you have to swing the cylinder out the revolver, eject the casings, put the new ones in, and swing the cylinder back into place and them come back up on target."
Florida has about 100,000 security officers - about twice as many as sworn law enforcement officers - and of those 17,139 are licensed to carry a weapon. Some already have semiautomatics, but they had to apply for a waiver with the state. Holcomb's proposal eliminates the need for waivers.
Any security officer with a Class G license, which allows them to carry a weapon, could use a semiautomatic provided their employer agrees and they go through 28 hours of training.
Though promoted as a way to modernize security outfits, backers also acknowledge the Barney Fife factor. "Modern firearms help raise the image of security officers and their pride in their equipment," read a news release put out by Holcomb trumpeting passage of the bill.
Doug Herbert, manager of Peak Security in Tampa, which employs 12 armed guards, said semiautomatics could be useful as a visual deterrent to criminals wanting to hold up, say, a liquor store or rob a jewelry shop. "If they see a revolver on a guy's hip, they think it's a joke," he said.
But Herbert foresees dangers with upgraded firepower. "If you get a guy who panics real easily, he's liable to empty a clip of 15 rounds rather than (the) six" a revolver holds.
Holcomb responds to criticism with a familiar refrain: "Guns are not evil. People are evil." He added: "I don't look at this as a gun issue. This is an officer safety issue. We already have guns; we're just going to a more modern weapon."
Holcomb, a father of three who lives in Largo, read the state statute 493 that governs security officers, and discovered simply changing a few words was all it took to provide for semiautomatics without a waiver.
So he decided to give it a go. "Half the people I talked to said you're never going to get it done." Holcomb estimates he spent $2,000 to mail and fax information to lawmakers and to host a Web site - www.change493.org He traveled twice to Tallahassee and testified before House committees. In all, he spent about 400 hours on the project.
State Rep. Priscilla Taylor, D-West Palm Beach, and state Sen. Carey Baker, R-Eustis, eventually sponsored the bill.
"There were a lot of hoops to jump through," Holcomb said. "If you're not part of a large consumer group or lobbying organization, it's hard to get the ear of a senator or representative. I was at the right place at the right time."
[Last modified May 27, 2005, 00:39:13]


I got my florida training during May 05, the semiauto law came into effect July 05. That explains why my 493 doesn't say a C possessing a G licence can use a 9mm

"Guns are not evil. People are evil."

lol yup,Bob is cool . Now common Jeb, lemme use my .45!!!

[Echos13]

I was searching more and came across this story.

artical link

Florida security officers can soon upgrade firepower
Thanks to a Pinellas officer, guards will be able to use semiautomatic handguns.
By ALEX LEARY, Times Staff Writer
Published May 27, 2005

Security officer Will Holcomb has heard them all: keychain cop, flashlight cop, rent-a-cop. He's seen the cartoons of the old-timer in the gatehouse either watching TV or snoozing.
But the realities of his job, he says, are vastly different. While patrolling a subsidized housing complex in Clearwater, Holcomb has encountered men beating their wives, teens shooting heroin in stairwells, car thefts.
A few years ago when he was working at a shopping center in St. Petersburg, a teenager pulled a gun on him.
In times fraught with such risks, Holcomb, 45, wonders why he carries a dinosaur on his hip - a .38-caliber Smith & Wesson revolver with a wood grip.
"There's nothing wrong with the revolver," he says. "Just like there's nothing wrong with a manual transmission. But I drive an automatic."
Now, after Holcomb's intensive lobbying effort, thousands of security officers in Florida, from the guards at supermarkets and jewelry stores to those at interstate rest stops, soon can trade in their revolvers for semiautomatic handguns.
Lawmakers overwhelmingly approved a bill this spring supporting the move and Gov. Jeb Bush signed it into law on Thursday. It goes into effect July 1.
"Since armed security officers face the same threats as public law enforcement officers," Holcomb said, "shouldn't they be allowed modern weapons?"
Critics question whether better firepower is necessary. "The guns are just too fast-acting and in the hands of people who have minimal training," said state Sen. Gwen Margolis, D-Miami Beach, who was one of only two lawmakers to oppose the bill. "It just didn't seem right to me."
Advocates say semiautomatics are more accurate because there is less recoil when a shot is fired and the grip is more ergonomic. The guns can also be reloaded much faster. Continuity is another cited justification. Many security officers enter the field from the military, where they are trained to use semiautomatics, such as a 9mm.
Revolvers, Holcomb said, are "a whole different skill set. Especially the reloading where you have to swing the cylinder out the revolver, eject the casings, put the new ones in, and swing the cylinder back into place and them come back up on target."
Florida has about 100,000 security officers - about twice as many as sworn law enforcement officers - and of those 17,139 are licensed to carry a weapon. Some already have semiautomatics, but they had to apply for a waiver with the state. Holcomb's proposal eliminates the need for waivers.
Any security officer with a Class G license, which allows them to carry a weapon, could use a semiautomatic provided their employer agrees and they go through 28 hours of training.
Though promoted as a way to modernize security outfits, backers also acknowledge the Barney Fife factor. "Modern firearms help raise the image of security officers and their pride in their equipment," read a news release put out by Holcomb trumpeting passage of the bill.
Doug Herbert, manager of Peak Security in Tampa, which employs 12 armed guards, said semiautomatics could be useful as a visual deterrent to criminals wanting to hold up, say, a liquor store or rob a jewelry shop. "If they see a revolver on a guy's hip, they think it's a joke," he said.
But Herbert foresees dangers with upgraded firepower. "If you get a guy who panics real easily, he's liable to empty a clip of 15 rounds rather than (the) six" a revolver holds.
Holcomb responds to criticism with a familiar refrain: "Guns are not evil. People are evil." He added: "I don't look at this as a gun issue. This is an officer safety issue. We already have guns; we're just going to a more modern weapon."
Holcomb, a father of three who lives in Largo, read the state statute 493 that governs security officers, and discovered simply changing a few words was all it took to provide for semiautomatics without a waiver.
So he decided to give it a go. "Half the people I talked to said you're never going to get it done." Holcomb estimates he spent $2,000 to mail and fax information to lawmakers and to host a Web site - www.change493.org He traveled twice to Tallahassee and testified before House committees. In all, he spent about 400 hours on the project.
State Rep. Priscilla Taylor, D-West Palm Beach, and state Sen. Carey Baker, R-Eustis, eventually sponsored the bill.
"There were a lot of hoops to jump through," Holcomb said. "If you're not part of a large consumer group or lobbying organization, it's hard to get the ear of a senator or representative. I was at the right place at the right time."
[Last modified May 27, 2005, 00:39:13]


I got my florida training during May 05, the semiauto law came into effect July 05. That explains why my 493 doesn't say a C possessing a G licence can use a 9mm lol yup,Bob is cool . Now common Jeb, lemme use my .45!!!

Got my 9mm carry not to shortly there after. Now, if they would just let us carry a .40 or a .45. I have had my eye on a nice glock .40 for a long time.