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Are cameras really a deterent?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    I've "heard of this before," but I have not seen relative caselaw. So, who wants to look this up on lexisnexis?

    Here are a couple of links:

    1. read the bottom paragraphs.

    http://www.infiltration.org/observations-looking.html

    2. This is a lawsuit in texas because the cameras were not monitored.

    http://www.dailytexanonline.com/medi...exanonline.com

    3. This is what can happen if you have covert surveillance without notification. Albeit I agree with the employees in this case.

    http://onlineathens.com/stories/1013...51013088.shtml

    4. Here is another case of covert cameras on campus.

    http://www.refuseandresist.org/resis...61998ccny.html

    That's all I found in 10 minutes of googling. There was a lawsuit here in arizona against a local private store having dummy cameras in the parking lot. The plaintiff was mugged in the parking lot. The police asked for the video from the owner of the store. The owner stated that the camera was a dummy. When the police notified the victim the lawsuit bell started ringing. The owner settled out of court for an undisclosed amount. I was trying to find a link in my local paper but didn't find it. It happened in Feb. 2004.

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    • #32
      Item #2

      That lawsuit appears to be on shaky ground and is not directly targeted at so-called "dummy cameras."

      I realize that people can sue for the most stupid of reasons, and sometimes they even win. (We need a system where the loser pays all court costs and attorney fees)

      I believe in the effectiveness of "dummy" cameras, having personally witnessed them deterring crime. We all know that a good security plan includes the right mix of many different security strategies. Personally, I will continue to recommend the use of such devices to my clients.
      Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Mr. Security
        I believe in the effectiveness of "dummy" cameras, having personally witnessed them deterring crime. We all know that a good security plan includes the right mix of many different security strategies. Personally, I will continue to recommend the use of such devices to my clients.
        I agree that they can be a part of an overall security plan. I just feel that the security plan should not be just dummy cameras for the reasons I've already stated. If a company wants to use dummy cameras I recommend using a working camera as well. Just use the dummy cameras in areas that would not be cost effective for real camera installation.

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        • #34
          When cameras are present and warning signs posted, the public has a reasonable expectation of safety and security.
          As Nathan has stated there is case law which upholds that expectation offered to the public.
          To use dummy cameras, unmonitored cameras and post warning signs, is foolhardy and an invitation for legal entanglements.
          Enjoy the day,
          Bill

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Bill Warnock
            When cameras are present and warning signs posted, the public has a reasonable expectation of safety and security.
            As Nathan has stated there is case law which upholds that expectation offered to the public.To use dummy cameras, unmonitored cameras and post warning signs, is foolhardy and an invitation for legal entanglements.
            Enjoy the day,
            Bill
            I'm not talking about public places or property. My post deals with private property. If you can show me caselaw in Connecticut where this has resulted in monetary damages being awarded, then I'm "all ears."
            Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

            Comment


            • #36
              I think they are and do help. But they dont stop everything. And besides as far as a cam does is record who killed you. I almost got assigned to a post for the city it was the water plant a "terrorism Target" of course. However the city at the time got in budget problems because the mayor and council made alot of stupid mistakes and what not. So they come up with an idea to save money. We will cut the security contract for the water plant and make our gates me secure and add more cams. However the cam records who killed us not stop them or make an attempt. Lucky us they never pulled the contract. I guess someone talked good sense into the great mayor. I think they are good tool for security and leos. But cams arent the answer again they recorded who hurt or killed you after its been done.

              Have you ever seen where suspects will still come into stores and stab shoot them and look up at the cam. One time a gang member laughed flashed signs and smiled and stuff for the cam after he killed the store clerk.

              Stay Safe Everyone

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              • #37
                Are cameras a deterrent? You would think so, but not so in the area I work. Just this week on second shift a guy walking down the sidewalk like nothing walk up to a park car smashed the window and help himself to some things and walk away, while all on camera. A few weeks ago on third shift we help the local PD identify a burglar. We catch people doing stupid things all the time on camera, drug deals, prostitution and peeing in the bushes. Cameras are more in catching people in the act not stopping them from acting.
                DizZy SO

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by DizZy SO
                  Are cameras a deterrent? You would think so, but not so in the area I work. Just this week on second shift a guy walking down the sidewalk like nothing walk up to a park car smashed the window and help himself to some things and walk away, while all on camera. A few weeks ago on third shift we help the local PD identify a burglar. We catch people doing stupid things all the time on camera, drug deals, prostitution and peeing in the bushes. Cameras are more in catching people in the act not stopping them from acting.
                  Actually, it works for both at least equally, if not more so toward prevention, IMO. Was the thief that you cited aware that he was on camera? What about the other examples? Maybe awareness is the problem and CCTV signs need to be added.
                  Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Mr. Security
                    Actually, it works for both at least equally, if not more so toward prevention, IMO. Was the thief that you cited aware that he was on camera? What about the other examples? Maybe awareness is the problem and CCTV signs need to be added.
                    I don’t know if the thief knew about the camera, but it is clearly visible. If you see a white and black dome hanging from the side of the building I would think you would know it’s a camera. As for the other examples that happens across from our property at the cemetery and they probably don’t know about the cameras or think we can’t see them. The city is planning on putting cameras around the city and at that cemetery. We have some signs, but maybe not enough. All the crimes that happen don’t happen on our property, but since it is on camera we do report it to the police.
                    DizZy SO

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                    • #40
                      I think it all comes down to the idiot who's doing something they are not suppose to. Where I work, we are wide open to the public, have 30 very visible cameras and warning labels all over the place stating that there is surveillance. Some people that were looking sketchy immediately leave when they see the camera's and others seem to not really care and when we bust them, 9 out of 10 times they said they assumed the cameras were fake or that nobody is ever watching them and that by the time somebody reviews the tapes at night or days later, it'd be too late. They serve their purpose as a deterent and also are very helpful down the road especially in court if something does occur on the grounds. You can argue with an individual over what they saw of you do, but you can't argue with a camera about what your actions were.

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                      • #41
                        I agree monitored cameras with a response to what is seen increases the chance of catching the bad guy. However they have not detered the crime.
                        I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                        Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by hisownhero
                          I think it all comes down to the idiot who's doing something they are not suppose to. Where I work, we are wide open to the public, have 30 very visible cameras and warning labels all over the place stating that there is surveillance. Some people that were looking sketchy immediately leave when they see the camera's and others seem to not really care and when we bust them, 9 out of 10 times they said they assumed the cameras were fake or that nobody is ever watching them and that by the time somebody reviews the tapes at night or days later, it'd be too late. They serve their purpose as a deterent and also are very helpful down the road especially in court if something does occur on the grounds. You can argue with an individual over what they saw of you do, but you can't argue with a camera about what your actions were.
                          That's an interesting and good observation. It gave me some insight into how these individuals reason, flawed though it may be. It helps explain why someone would go ahead and do something stupid right there in front of a camera. Oh well, as someone once told me, people have a right to be stupid.
                          Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I've discovered 1 place where cameras apparently are a deterent. At the last meeting of the Hotel Secuirty Directors of Montreal the SQ talked about East European gangs & their speciality, cloning credit & debit cards. We were told that frauds with ATM machines happen more at one bank company than anyother. The reason is because this bank is the only one that does not have cameras. Now if all the banks had cameras the deterence might disappear.
                            I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                            Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by hisownhero
                              I think it all comes down to the idiot who's doing something they are not suppose to. Where I work, we are wide open to the public, have 30 very visible cameras and warning labels all over the place stating that there is surveillance. Some people that were looking sketchy immediately leave when they see the camera's and others seem to not really care and when we bust them, 9 out of 10 times they said they assumed the cameras were fake or that nobody is ever watching them and that by the time somebody reviews the tapes at night or days later, it'd be too late. They serve their purpose as a deterent and also are very helpful down the road especially in court if something does occur on the grounds. You can argue with an individual over what they saw of you do, but you can't argue with a camera about what your actions were.
                              As Mr. Security said, good points. I use CCTV on a daily basis in my retail loss prevention position. Most of the CCTV domes are very visible and there are even small warning stickers on the cosmetics counters. People will still stand right under them and commit theft.

                              That being said, cameras do deter much crime. It's hard to measure just how much, though, because how can you meausre how much crime did not happen because the potential violater spotted a camera? (Unless you're using pre-camera install and post-camera install time periods as a reference.)

                              I think we'll continue to see deterrence effects increase as far as cameras are concerned, however. Many people look at cameras and instantly think 1980s grainy-quality, small, fuzzy picture, and a monitor with VHS tapes in the back room that isn't being watched.

                              As more people are educated about the increases in CCTV technology, they'll slowly start to realize that I use PTZ full color cameras with 20x zoom that are recorded to DVR and not VHS. That means I can instantly pull up the footage on the PC, play back, and even burn to a CD. The majority of the sales associates at my store are surprised when they see our camera system in action. I can read a license plate off of a vehicle parked at the far end of the parking lot or zoom in and see the numbers on a credit card that a customer is paying with. With more and more cameras being used in various places (London, for example, and certain U.S. cities) we'll continue to see the deterrence effect grow.

                              Sadly, we'll always continue to have idiots who don't care who is watching and will commit their crimes anyway.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by LPGuy
                                That being said, cameras do deter much crime. It's hard to measure just how much, though, because how can you meausre how much crime did not happen because the potential violater spotted a camera?
                                No, my experience is based on 2 side-by-side open unmanned parking lots. One with visable camersa & one with no cameras. The amount of thefts over the same time period were the same.
                                I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                                Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

                                Comment

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