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  • #16
    Each of those communities I listed employ sworn police officers.. You cant operate in a Law Enforcement tasks unless you are a POST certified and sworn officer.. I "rambled on" with more than just the basics, as you appear to not want to research out whats there. Further more, Most of these SWORN OFFICERS are RESERVE OFFICERS. Now I dont know how much more I can clearly state this to you.

    As per response, I am not interested in an appology. You are posting on a professional web site, amoung a feild of professionals. You are the very first person I have come across on this site that responds with negative remarks in an unprofessional manner. Why does this topic concern you so severely that you make such remarks? Why are you so sensative to the nature of these professions? Why do you disregard such facts and respond with such negativity?

    I, in no way condone or condem any operations of these natures. THis goes for most cases and different types of Agencies. The ones I have the most issues with, are the Observe and Report only Agencies, but most agree with me here. Unlike the Polcie Forums, where their concern is night sight weapons and entry tactics, this site and its participants discuss interests in making our sites safer and improving the clients atmosphere. Safety is Security, and Security is what we are employed to do.

    You asked for specific sites, I gave specific sites. You wanted facts, I gave facts. Even though you are discontent with these operations, you want to find flaws and disbelief, or look for compensation of the same accord, and I have even supplied you with other social repsonses of the same nature.

    I think I have proven enough, even though perhaps you should be attacking these department, and not me, as I do not operate in this sector, nor deisre to, but my premise is on a different level of operations. Your private message cliams to indicate I said somewhere that I am a sworn officer, and implied I work one of these Private Community Agencies.. You are mistaken, my "screen name" should help clarify my operations. Being so interested in my background (and why I do not know), I have done reserve Sheriff's work, after completing courses and academies. This is emphasized with HAVE, as in not presently. To further top the cake, I have also worked on the federal level of law enforcement as a 31B (Military Police) in the US Army, but i am out of the service. I have had the opertunity to work so many different career type employments, and if I was ever interested in working as Law Enforcment, I would.. but I am much happier doing what I do, and its NOT police work, nor Private Community Policing. I have my reasons for working where I do, and do not bash others for their career feild selection. Why you have such an interest bringing this assault onto me, for what other agencies do, is misdirected, and you need to go off and follow these individuals and persue badgering them.

    This whole thread is based on a question from another member interested in this type of operation, I simply gave a response, and left it at that until you entered with a barrage of inciting responses. I gave you facts and answers, and you still wish to dispute the matter. I am not interested in this, and my time is limited as I do not spend every waking moment on the internet. I think we all could find better things to do, or respond to. Frankly, this is starting to become mondain and annoying to me, and if it hasnt with you, you need to find other menas of releases, as I am not going to persue this matter any more.
    Deputy Sheriff

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    • #17
      I understand and share Histfan's confusion MD.

      These "departments" yo9u talk about, what do they call themselves, who are they licensed by, and are the Peace officers they employ commisioned by them, or what?

      I was recently a part of a similar discussion on O.com (yea, I said O.com, I know that's some of y'all's favorite place ) about Private Police in such a situation as is being discussed here, specifially the Black Butte Ranch Police and other entities. After some digging, we determined that the BBRPD was in fact a public agency, Oregon like ther states allows for the creation of "special government districts", and BBRPD is born from that, the BBR special government district just happens to be the same location as the Black Butte Ranch corporation, yet they are still two distinct entities.

      What I and Histfan (if I can be so bold as to speak for him) are trying to understand is: Are you talking about real private police agency (like you'd find in North Carolina and other states) or are you mistaking government agency police for private police (like was don'e in the O.com thread I linked too) OR are you talking about regualr Security Outfits who employ some Reserves from some police agency and conduct quasi police operations?

      It's not a police department if they can't commision their own police. Reading the info you posted, I don't see any evidence of a situation like BBR PD or Co-Op City Police in New York, I see what Histfan sees, private security perhaps augmented by outside reserve officers, enforcing "community Regulations" which might resemble private police but in fact are not. That's not a police department.

      If you're saying there is Private Security doing police "like" work, well of course.

      Enlighten me if I'm not getting the whole picture. I'm not from California, i've only been there to visit my sister (she works for the Alameda County Sheriff, and started her career as a Campus cop, like what I do now).
      Last edited by Black Caesar; 09-15-2006, 03:19 PM.
      ~Black Caesar~
      Corbier's Commandos

      " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Mall Director
        I have also worked on the federal level of law enforcement as a 31B (Military Police) in the US Army
        I can't believe they went and changed the MOS designation for Military Police. When I was in the Army, we were 95B, I feel so old now.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Mall Director
          Each of those communities I listed employ sworn police officers.. You cant operate in a Law Enforcement tasks unless you are a POST certified and sworn officer.. I "rambled on" with more than just the basics, as you appear to not want to research out whats there. Further more, Most of these SWORN OFFICERS are RESERVE OFFICERS. Now I dont know how much more I can clearly state this to you.
          I have been able to find contact information for 3 of the 4 private communities you listed, and NONE of them have a private police department. They have private security guards and while some of the employees of the security department might also be employed as Reserve Police Officers with a local police agency, they are NOT employed by the private community as law enforcement officers, but as security guards. While on-duty at the private community the security guards (including those who may also be Reserve Police Officers) DO NOT have peace officer authority. So your claim that these private communities have sworn, POST certified police departments and employ sworn, POST certified police officers, is WRONG!

          Originally posted by Mall Director
          Why does this topic concern you so severely that you make such remarks? Why are you so sensative to the nature of these professions? Why do you disregard such facts and respond with such negativity?
          Simple, I do not like people who pretend to be police officers.

          Originally posted by Mall Director
          Your private message cliams to indicate I said somewhere that I am a sworn officer, and implied I work one of these Private Community Agencies.. You are mistaken, my "screen name" should help clarify my operations.
          Here are your own words from a previous post on this topic. You did not imply that you worked for a private community police department as a police officer, you said so directly:

          Originally posted by Mall Director
          In southern California, there are private communities that operate along the same methods. I worked a Private Security/Police department. You meet POST standards and its a go from there.
          Here you go again, now stating you used to be a sworn Deputy Sheriff. Unless you can prove this is true, stop identifying yourself as a current or former sworn law enforcement officer.

          Originally posted by Mall Director
          I have done reserve Sheriff's work, after completing courses and academies.
          Army MP's are not Federal Law Enforcement Officers. They are soldiers whose Military Occupational Specialty is Military Police. Once again, stop identifying yourself as a current/former sworn law enforcement officer.

          Originally posted by Mall Director
          To further top the cake, I have also worked on the federal level of law enforcement as a 31B (Military Police) in the US Army, but i am out of the service.
          Mall Director, you are a liar and a fraud. Go find some other forum to pollute. I consider this matter closed, and Mr. Kohl please lock this thread.
          Last edited by histfan71; 09-15-2006, 09:46 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Gentleman I'm not a moderator, and don't pretend to be one, but if we could keep the personal crap out of the thread that would be nice.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by LavianoTS386
              Gentleman I'm not a moderator, and don't pretend to be one, but if we could keep the personal crap out of the thread that would be nice.
              I 2nd that motion. Everyone, chill!!
              I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
              Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

              Comment


              • #22
                Histfan,

                I just want to say that I (and quite a few others) feel you are the one who is out of line. Your overall demeanor on SIW is negative and condescending to the security industry as a whole. I don't think I have ever seen someone as rude as you on SIW. You certainly spend a considerable amount of time bashing others with your "Observe and Report Only" opinions. I understand you have kind of worked both side of the fence (LE/Security), but that gives you absolutely no right to behave in such a negative manner. Mall Director has contributed a considerable amount of valuable insight and opinions. You on the other hand, have not. You like to quote people so give me some of your own quotes of how you have contributed to SIW in a positive and constructive manner. Seeing as you are a "LEO", If you despise the private security industry, then perhaps the LEO forums are a better fit for you. Just remember though, at the end of the day... you are a LEO contracted through a private security organization. Given that fact, I would have expected you to be an example of a true professional that contributes to these forums in a positive manner.

                Have a great weekend,

                Derick
                "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by S Messina
                  I can't believe they went and changed the MOS designation for Military Police. When I was in the Army, we were 95B, I feel so old now.
                  They are just now fazing out 95B's.. as the "needs of the Army" now dictate alot of cross training. Like you, I am pretty sure this was displeasing news.. The difference between a 95B and a 31B, is that a 95B can not work the corrections MOS, as they are not certified, all the while the 31B's AIT'd for both. Too many people were enlisting for straight military police work, and evaded the corrections work. The Army felt the need for a "More universal soldier" in alot of MOS's.In 2001, in my Primary MOS, and other MOS's, the Army started alot of Cross-training. I originally was an 82C, which the Army fazed out, except for females, due to the new Tridon Gyroscopes loaded into the Pallidons. So the Army came up with 13S, which at start was the same job (land surveyors) and reclassed them as more of a reconnosance MOS, as the original 82C had the knowledge and equipment (PADS) to operate. THey took this useless MOS in the Artillery Branch, and made them usefull by mixing them with the fisters (13F) for forward observer type operations. Alot of the Combat Arms MOS's started cross training with the Aviation MOS's as crew members, as we did, in assistance to work with calvalry units. I know, its alot of useless and pointless info... bakc to the original point..

                  Kids were signing up left and right to be Military Police, while the increasing failed soldier rate was climbing, and EPW's were needing more care takers. So now, you can pretty much enlist as military police, but you wont get the classification of 95B (lucky bleeps), but as a 31B.. So if the Army needs more corrections type military police officers, and you are working some nice cush Provost Marshalls Office, you can get orders to a corrections installation with no training needed.. Oh yeah, I got sucked into that, luckily I called the DA and spoke with my rep to get a nice assignment, but took in the rear in other areas.

                  Would you believe that ADA is going out the door as well? I had alot of inserts placed into our MP battalion at Leonardwood for reclass training. Those guys had no choice, the Army said they needed 31B's badly, and closed out their MOS's. Something you are not aware of when you enlist.
                  Deputy Sheriff

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                  • #24
                    Ok, I think there is a misunderstanding here. Lets take this from the top.

                    1. Unless you are a PC 832 certified PEACE OFFICER who has an arrangement with a Sheriff's Department under the State Education Code (See knotquiteawake), if you hold a PC 832 certificate... You are a private citizen with a PC 832 certificate.

                    2. A peace officer is not a sworn law enforcement officer in the State of California, if I remember correctly, although they have the authority to arrest in the name of the State. This is fundamentally different than the Private Arrest Statute, in which you arrest in the name of the People.

                    3. Unless you work for one of those weird departments, you need to be fully 600+ hour POST certified to work for a Law Enforcement Agency.

                    4. Private residential communities like to hire Reserve IIIs (Solos) from the local LE agencies that hold jurisdiction in the area of the community. The residential community is not incorporated, nor are they an official municipal corporation erected in the Name of the State.

                    5. The residential communities use these Reserve IIIs to enforce California Law on their properties by virtue of their status as a LEO with an agency, having full arrest authority off duty.

                    6. I do not consider this a private police department, I consider this a very creative use of part-time cops on private property.

                    7. Many of the things that a public police officer can do in California can be done by a private citizen when they are the agent of the owner on their private property. They may arrest for misdemeanors and felonies (Under Private Arrest, not Peace Officer Arrest), they may investigate criminal offenses (there is no law to stop you from doing this), they may give lawful orders to depart the property as an agent of the owner (something a public peace officer usually cannot do), they may stop vehicles on the property...

                    Some of these things are not prohibited. Others maybe authorized because the driver of the security vehicle is a off duty police officer.

                    8. In other states, some people use off-duty police officers in this manner. They be only a reservist, but they are still a police officer. The security department is not a law enforcement agency, but the police officer who is a part of it retains his powers.
                    Some Kind of Commando Leader

                    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                      Ok, I think there is a misunderstanding here. Lets take this from the top.
                      Nathan, I have a few comments and corrections to make to your points:

                      Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                      1. Unless you are a PC 832 certified PEACE OFFICER who has an arrangement with a Sheriff's Department under the State Education Code (See knotquiteawake), if you hold a PC 832 certificate... You are a private citizen with a PC 832 certificate.
                      Absolutely correct. California law (Penal Code Section 830.7 for those of you want to look it up) allows cemeteries, private colleges and universities, and PUBLIC (but not private) hospitals to create such agencies as you have described above. Private residential communities are not included.

                      Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                      2. A peace officer is not a sworn law enforcement officer in the State of California, if I remember correctly, although they have the authority to arrest in the name of the State. This is fundamentally different than the Private Arrest Statute, in which you arrest in the name of the People.
                      Actually, the terms "peace officer" and "police officer" are interchangeable in California. The State prefers to use the term "peace officer" since there are many law enforcement officers in the State whose job title is not "police officer" such as Deputy Sheriffs, Park Rangers, Highway Patrolman, and others.

                      Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                      3. Unless you work for one of those weird departments, you need to be fully 600+ hour POST certified to work for a Law Enforcement Agency.
                      100% correct.

                      Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                      4. Private residential communities like to hire Reserve IIIs (Solos) from the local LE agencies that hold jurisdiction in the area of the community. The residential community is not incorporated, nor are they an official municipal corporation erected in the Name of the State.
                      This time, 90% correct. See my response below on Level III Reserves.

                      Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                      5. The residential communities use these Reserve IIIs to enforce California Law on their properties by virtue of their status as a LEO with an agency, having full arrest authority off duty.
                      Level III Reserve's in California are the lowest level of sworn officer. Here is a link to a table on California's POST website http://www.post.ca.gov/training/rpop...OP-summary.pdf that describes in detail the authority and required training of all three levels of Reserve Peace Officer's in the State. It is actually Level I Reserve's that are allowed to work solo. See the link for more detailed info.

                      Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                      6. I do not consider this a private police department, I consider this a very creative use of part-time cops on private property.
                      Neither do I.

                      Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                      7. Many of the things that a public police officer can do in California can be done by a private citizen when they are the agent of the owner on their private property. They may arrest for misdemeanors and felonies (Under Private Arrest, not Peace Officer Arrest), they may investigate criminal offenses (there is no law to stop you from doing this), they may give lawful orders to depart the property as an agent of the owner (something a public peace officer usually cannot do), they may stop vehicles on the property...
                      100% correct. In fact, in many ways, the authority of a private security guard on the PRIVATE PROPERTY they are being paid to guard is greater than the authority of a sworn cop. In California, a security vehicle may have a red and blue light bar so long as the vehicle does not leave private property. Once the security vehicle so equipped enters a public roadway the driver can be cited for an equipment violation just for having a red/blue lightbar on the vehicle. If the driver activates said red/blue lightbar on a public roadway the driver can (and will) be arrested for impersonation of a police officer.

                      Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                      8. In other states, some people use off-duty police officers in this manner. They be only a reservist, but they are still a police officer. The security department is not a law enforcement agency, but the police officer who is a part of it retains his powers.
                      Not in California. See the POST table I linked to above. The last I knew (it may have changed now) the only two police departments in the state who granted their Level I Reserves 24-hour peace officer status were the LAPD and Stockton PD. I do not know about Stockton's policy, but LAPD had a policy that if you worked an off-duty job as a security guard, you could only make an arrest as a private person. You could not invoke your peace officer authority in ANY way.
                      Last edited by histfan71; 09-16-2006, 11:11 AM. Reason: typo

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by histfan71
                        The last I knew (it may have changed now) the only two police departments in the state who granted their Level I Reserves 24-hour peace officer status were the LAPD and Stockton PD.
                        When I was in the SO down in Cali, I heard there were a few more, up in NorCal. I wanna say somewhere in Siskiyou or Lassen Counties. I had some "tracker" training at the College of the Siskiyous in Weed, that's where I remember hearing that. 'Course, that was a few years ago.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          While in California in the early 90s I visited an old folks retirement community. They had private security manned mainly by unarmed security guards driving vehicles with amber lights and sirens. However their supervisors were all special deputies with the Orange County Sheriffs Office, and were all former police officers. Even though they were paid by the retirement community as security, they wore Special Deputy uniforms and were armed with full police powers.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Will57
                            While in California in the early 90s I visited an old folks retirement community. They had private security manned mainly by unarmed security guards driving vehicles with amber lights and sirens. However their supervisors were all special deputies with the Orange County Sheriffs Office, and were all former police officers. Even though they were paid by the retirement community as security, they wore Special Deputy uniforms and were armed with full police powers.
                            You're talking about one of the Leisure Worlds. I know one is in Seal Beach and the other is in Aliso Viejo, I think. They have some sort of arrangement with Orange County to give SOME of their supervisors LIMITED peace officer powers while on-duty only. Yes, they were armed (I think they still are) but their status was limited to things like making probable cause felony arrests (under the peace officer's arrest rule rather than the citizen's arrest rule) and being able to write county parking tickets on the property.

                            I do not know all of the details, since the person I know who used to be a supervisor at the Seal Beach location left Leisure World many, many years ago and some things I am sure have changed. I have seen the Seal Beach Leisure World supervisor guards (this was in 2002) and they no longer wore the OCSD Special Deputy uniform, but a light blue shirt and dark blue pants.

                            By the way, this thread and dead and buried and there was no real reason to bring it back to life.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by histfan71
                              By the way, this thread and dead and buried and there was no real reason to bring it back to life.
                              My apologies re posting on the thread, I didn't see any signs here that stated it was closed. Makes me wonder why you replied to my post if the thread is supposed to be closed, my excuse was I am new to the site.

                              You are right, I was talking about Leisure Hills in the LakeForest area. The supervisors were special deputies with the powers of an OCSO special deputy, which doesn't include being able to run code three while operating a patrol car.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by histfan71
                                By the way, this thread and dead and buried and there was no real reason to bring it back to life.
                                Congradulations on your appointment as moderator to this site. My offical notice must have gotten lost in the mail
                                I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                                Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

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