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  • Off Duty Texas Security Guard Shoots Car Thief

    Houston, TX:
    An off duty security guard found someone stealing his SUV. He followed the suspect and ended up shooting him after the suspect came to a stop and bailed out of the vehicle.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/kprc/20060830/lo_kprc/9760745
    "We appreciate all the hard work you've done, the dedicated hours you have worked, and the lives you have saved. However, since this is your third time being late to work, we are terminating your employment here."

  • #2
    So, a citizen who may or may not been legally authorized to carry a firearm with his CCW permit (cause I know that security firearms permit won't authorize him to carry "off-duty") pursued a man stealing his car (instead of/after) notifying police, the man jumped out and he was shot?

    This guy needs a lawyer.

    There is no such thing as an off duty security guard. There are citizens who are authorized by the state to openly carry firearms while actively carrying out their professional job (Being a security guard). There are citizens who are authorized by the state to openly carry or concealed carry firearms for lawful self defense (CCW carriers).
    Some Kind of Commando Leader

    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
      So, a citizen who may or may not been legally authorized to carry a firearm with his CCW permit (cause I know that security firearms permit won't authorize him to carry "off-duty") pursued a man stealing his car (instead of/after) notifying police, the man jumped out and he was shot?

      This guy needs a lawyer.

      There is no such thing as an off duty security guard. There are citizens who are authorized by the state to openly carry firearms while actively carrying out their professional job (Being a security guard). There are citizens who are authorized by the state to openly carry or concealed carry firearms for lawful self defense (CCW carriers).
      Well, he's in Texas, he might not come to any grief for his actions, even if he didn't have a CCW. Texas means business when it comes to the right to protect property. It's still the law in this state that shooting someone who is running away from you with your property is justifyed A) if you reasonably beleive you will not be able to recover the property and B) its nighttime.

      A couple year ago a guy shot a dude with an AK-47 for breaking into his truck (happened here in Dallas, 1st Watch may remember it). Nothing bad happened to the guy with the AK, he was defending his property of course.

      My own cousin shot a dude who was trying to start his own car the same way. He lives in Euless (a "mid-city" between Dallas and Fort Worth). He too was no-billed for the action.

      Moral: Don't steal in Texas..
      ~Black Caesar~
      Corbier's Commandos

      " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

      Comment


      • #4
        The term "off duty security guard" was only used in context because the article identified the homeowner as a security guard. I think they only did that to emphasize the form of training he had already received in identifying a crime and in dealing with it.

        Regarding the legality of carrying the weapon, Texas recently clarified the existing definition of "travelling" with a weapon as having a weapon in a privately owned vehicle. A person may not carry a weapon in a vehicle if he is a convicted felon, a member of a criminal street gang, or otherwise prohibited from carrying firearms. That means a concealed handgun permit is no longer required to carry a weapon in a vehicle anymore. The same applies in order to bear arms on your own property here.

        I don't recall the incident with the AK-47 mentioned, but it does make sense. We can carry shotguns and rifles openly here with no permit or training required as long as it is not "displayed calculated to alarm". The law also authorizes deadly force against a person to prevent unlawful deadly force against a person and also to protect property against burglary and arson at any time or against theft or criminal mischief (vandalism) during the night time.

        That basically empowers any person to carry out a wide variety of options to stop an offense. The state upholds the right of many here to possess guns and, perhaps sometimes too sparingly, to point them at people and even shoot them. One thing I find to be strange though is how it compares to the laws of arrest in regard to a private citizen, which allows for arrest in the case of a felony or offense against peace or theft committed within view. If I catch someone beating the hell out of someone else I can use force to stop it and I can arrest the suspect. The same would apply if I caught him breaking into my home or an acquaintance's home or committing some other felony. If I catch the same person breaking my car window at night, however, I could theoretically get away with shooting him, but would not be allowed to arrest him.
        "We appreciate all the hard work you've done, the dedicated hours you have worked, and the lives you have saved. However, since this is your third time being late to work, we are terminating your employment here."

        Comment


        • #5
          This thread interests me in the fact that my RX8 was recently broken into at the hotel I'm living at... at 8 am in the morning nonetheless. My briefcase and laptop were stolen and being in Texas I have recently bought a handgun for personal defense and also fun targe practice (Sig Sauer 2022 .40 cal)

          At the time of the break in i actually HEARD my windows being smashed and looked out the window and saw the crime, i couldnt get down there in time but my thought was how the law would treat ME (the victim) if I would have opened my window (and if i would have had a gun at the time) fired upon the people breaking into my expensive car and stealing my hardware? I love the fact that texas is more open about persaonl defense but I would just like to hear what other people know for a fact? Iv'e grown up around guns my whole life and logically realize I would have no problem shooting and killing someone that was committing a crime against myself, my family or my property.

          In a hypothetical scenerio say I lookd out my window saw them breaking into my car, grabbed my gun and fired upon the theif, killing him. How would *I* be treated after killing someone in this situation?

          Comment


          • #6
            If everyone is legally allowed to bear arms & use them in Texas why pay for police forces? It is like Nathan once wrote, with everyone carrying cell phones you no longer need observe & report type security guards!
            I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
            Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by HotelSecurity
              If everyone is legally allowed to bear arms & use them in Texas why pay for police forces? It is like Nathan once wrote, with everyone carrying cell phones you no longer need observe & report type security guards!

              lol

              The thing is, despite all the hype, most people in Texas aren't gun toting cowboys. Most people won't carry even though they can, so police and security will always have jobs .

              I know I will, I work on a College Campus, can't bring guns inside College Buildings (although our parking lots are a different matter, public college parking lots are legally the same as public streets).
              ~Black Caesar~
              Corbier's Commandos

              " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

              Comment


              • #8
                Killing over property crimes is one of the reasons that the gun control lobby is so powerful.
                Some Kind of Commando Leader

                "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                  Killing over property crimes is one of the reasons that the gun control lobby is so powerful.
                  THE GUN CONTROL LOBBY IS SO POWERFUL - WHERE?
                  I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                  Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                    Killing over property crimes is one of the reasons that the gun control lobby is so powerful.
                    "Up there" maybe, in Texas our stuff is our stuff, period .

                    The Gun "control" lobby dosen't need any excuses, you could kill no on for any reason and they still wouldn't like guns becuase of their "potential". The gun contrl lobby is so powerful because some people are predisposed towards utopian beliefs, and the need to defend our rights and our propertywith (up to and includinging deadly) force dosen't fit into their (less than totally grounded in reality) belief system.

                    Hell, even as certified peace officers campus cops catch some of the "I dont think we need gun on our campus, see nothing bad has happened here" insanity. Academics can be some of the worse people about this......until someone robs them, then they wonder where the campus cops with the guns where.....
                    Last edited by Black Caesar; 10-13-2006, 03:09 AM.
                    ~Black Caesar~
                    Corbier's Commandos

                    " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Black Caesar,
                      >>"Up there" maybe, in Texas our stuff is our stuff, period<<

                      I have doubts that even in TX this sort of action (use of deadly force) would be justified in this particular incident, as it was related. Per your previous statement, "he bailed from the vehicle & was then shot" based on this premise only, he was then fleeing from the vehicle which was left unattended by him at that point & therefore the property was - within the eyes of the law, "recoverable & no longer possessed" the moment he exited the truck.
                      The fact the owner was actually pursuing could (will be) also be called into question.
                      If he did not notify proper authorities of such, this is another no-go. Had he contacted 911 during this, my educated guess & past LE experience tells me without a doubt, 911 dispatch would have told him to back off immediatley, particularly had he notified 911 that he was also armed...for the very reasons to avoid what actually did take place. A little CCW card, in any state gives you no authority to persue, it gives you no authority what so ever to act in any enforcement capacity actually, its a permit to carry a firearm, nothing more, niether does "off duty security guard" (no such thing) this is a law enforcement entitlement, applicable to certain situations, and pursuits are under an ever more increasingly governed dept pursuit policies, acrossed the country. There is more 1 good guy serving prison time, because they lost sight of thier real legal authority or the boundrys of such, both on & off duty.
                      There is more then 1 dead wife, father, child, due to being at the wrong place at the wrong time, when an "authorized pursuit" by LEO's is underway, and not so few fellow officers lost to such things ...had this clown plowed down a family going to church, while being chased by the vehicle owner, there would be no justification what so ever for the chase & both parties would be held equally accountable under the law, as the chase would be considered a seperate event, resulting from the theft, yet entered into voluntarily by both parties.
                      There is either something left out of this story..such as the suspect was armed with a weapon & presented a clear & present danger to the owner of the vehicle or bystanders, after jumping from the vehicle, thus justification for the use of force is warranted.
                      I'd be interested how this one turns out. I'm not argueing with you, you clearly feel this man was justified in chasing down the bad guy, but under U.S. law, one is still held to the 'reasonable man' standard when it comes to personal defense accountability & the use of deadly force..what would a reasonable man do, given the same situation, knowing what that man knew at the time & placed in the same exact situation.... most folks, TX or not, would not have pursued without notifying real authorities 1st or within a few moments into, most folks, CCW or not, would not have draw a weapon when (if) there was no direct threat to life & certainly, most all folks would not have actually shot a fleeing individual AFTER that person had abandoned the stolen property & was probably at that point, simply trying to run his @$$ as far away as fast as possible...the moment he fled without the property, the actual "act of crime" was no longer present as a threat & the law is very clear on what can & cant happen at that very moment, especially actions undertaken by a private citizen.
                      This is either missing something else vital to the issue, or sadly this owner has a long legal battle ahead.
                      Yoda
                      Sometimes there is "Justice", sometimes there is "Just Us"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Black Caesar
                        ......Moral: Don't steal in Texas..

                        Moral: Stay out of Texas. They still think they’re defending the Alamo.
                        Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by FDG06
                          Black Caesar,
                          "Up there" maybe, in Texas our stuff is our stuff, period
                          >>SNIP, to save space.<<
                          This is either missing something else vital to the issue, or sadly this owner has a long legal battle ahead.
                          Yoda
                          Very good textbook thinking (edit) Black Caesar, and accurate statements. And some around here may say "thats good for city folks".

                          But out here in the real world; No local police where I live. May take a deputy 30 minutes to an hour to respond to a call, sometimes longer. We value our families and our lives. We also value our real and personal property. We work for our personal property. We are the ones who loose when someone steals our property.

                          Law Enforcement, judiciaries, news media, etc. have no concern about me or my property and have no intention of replacing my loss. They are concerned only with the letter of the law and enhansement of thier own careers.

                          So, here in what we refer to as the real world, we have to take care of ourselves. You steal something of mine while I'm present and I'm going to take care of the matter post haste. Action depending on circumstances. Stealing a watermelon will get you warned but not shot. You steal my means of transportation or my well pump and you "will" find you had a real bad idea. And 911 'will' be notified.

                          This is not barbaric nor uncivilized thinking. It is survival. And has been the method of personal and property protection for thousands of years. We do not intend to end anyone's life over property, but if it happens.......well, the thief chose his actions and is responsable for the outcome.
                          Last edited by mh892; 10-13-2006, 09:38 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            [QUOTE=mh892]Very good textbook thinking (edit) Black Caesar, and accurate statements. And some around here may say "thats good for city folks". >>>SNIP.

                            Geeze. I was sure I'd get a rise outta somebody. Oh, well. Back to swamp law.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              As far as saying off duty security officer guard what ever i think that is fine. You are off duty when your not on lol. As for a security officer not being allowed to carry off duty at least to from work is wrong. First of a uniform = a target. When i was off duty one time i had a car pull up next to me and make threats to kill me. Just because your off duty dont mean nothing will happen. Thats why the National Officer Carry law was passed for LEOS they had alot of evidence of that. And many off duty officers killed or family killed because his/her agency said when your off duty we dont give a dang about you, you cant carry and they got them killed for it. Its wrong and im 110% against anything like that. If a person is good enough to risk life on duty they are good enough off duty. Example below on how my agency violates my rights :

                              I have a CCW. My state says i can carry a concealed handgun. Ok. But my security agency says post is un armed cant carry. So i have to leave it home. However soon as im off duty i can carry, but my gun is at home. They violate my rights. I should be allowed to at least have it in my turnk intill im off. NRA is passing laws and has in some states that say an employer cant tell a person they cant keep the weapon in the trunk. Why because when they are off the clock they can carry yet job says cant have it in your trunk. So they violate my right. You may be intersted what started this entire thing. A Company decided to (the owner) search for guns. BUt he lied to security and even asked deputies to run lic plates. The Sheriffs Dept realized he wasnt looking for drugs like he said. The Deputuies knew what he was doin was against civil rights. They left. Its legal to store the gun unloaded in thr trunk per law. Then they find guns he fires 21 employees on the spot. Also he did the search first day of hunting season. He knew he would find guns. So NRA decided to get it in law which states employers cant fire persons for something that is not even against the law to begin with. You might be interested that AOL/Time Warner and many other big corps do this stuff.

                              Gun control lobby being powerful yes in some ways they are. SOme ways no. But so is the NRA. As our VP told people in government be afraid of what this organization (body) can do to your career. We have taken many big boys out of the game. And famous people alike. I dont trust the gun control lobby when they say no lawful person should own a firearm or have a ccw permit etc. Then they turn around a push for letting violent killers back on the street. What this tells me they are for criminals and not good people. An example of a member of gun control : Ted Kennedy who got really pissed once President Bush signed the National Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act into law which allows LEOs to carry CCW in all 50 states. This should have been a law many yrs ago. Kennedy stated i dont want officers carrying sniper rifles under his clothes. Ted also said i dont want them carrying hand gernades. I say to Ted i dont give a u know s bleep what you want. You are not the one serving. Thats the gun control lobby off the facts, giving dumb statements like that. It also shows they dont even want LEOs carrying. All i can think of is some how if the crime rate gets so high they make money off it some way.

                              How i feel on property: its probably not a threat to life so no use of force such as a gun should be used. Now if they come into your home yes. Or if its a threat to you and others yes. I do however say yes to pulling your weapon out on a property crime. You have no idea what a subject may have on them.

                              I also support the stand your ground law NRA helped get passed in FL and other states. Right now i think OH law says you must retreat. How we feel is you dont have to because you have a right to be in the place your at and the criminal dont. Also if a criminal is trying to kill you they can no longer sue when u hurt them. If you kill them family cant sue. Thats only fair. I think its a load of crap when a person breaks into your home and tries to cut you or your family you hurt him and he takes you into court. When you allow such theys you are rewarding the criminals and they laugh.

                              And here is most of what is against the gun lobby in the very very high 9% makrs Law Enforcement Officers support the right to bear arms. If you dont think so next time you are at a gun range look at how many officers or mil personnel may be shooting. I seen an FBI Agent one time. The reason LEOS support it they know first hand what criminals do against lawful people. I know many many law enforcement officers and none are against the right to bear arms, ccw etc. For some reason rich people in politics are tho. And it makes me wonder just what he/she may or may not be involved in. Look at Kennedy remember the time his car went into a river or lake was it ? With a woman inside. And he waited for ever to call for help. Thats a gun control lobby member. Also i hear another time when he drove drunk. And he dont want officers and civilians to carry ccw. I got news for him i dont want him to carry anything. Because as far as garbage well thats what i think lol.

                              One time my buddy was in a pursuit the guy got down the road and slamed through this mans fence gate at his home. He pulls up and the suspect yells arrest him he pulled a gun on me. My buddy now a sgt said buddy is she came flyin through my fence at 3am i would pull a gun to. For some reason suspects think they can do what ever they want. And they gripe when they lose to good people. I say too bad cry all you want i dont want to hear it. Next time dont do what you did and you will be just fine.

                              Stay Safe All

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