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  • #16
    Originally posted by Mr. Security
    Yea, they banned me. The more I read various posts about how they can't stand security officers, the angrier I got. That thread that I started about showing p/c to S/O's was a test. I really don't expect any special treatment. But I knew that thread would expose the hatred that they have on that site against security. They took the bait and confirmed my suspicions. You are exactly right. They can't even get along between themselves. Be careful on that site. They would love to find some excuse to ban anyone in security that calls them on it.
    You know what would be wonderful? If each of those cops picked up the phone and called the security company that employed the hood rat, and complained their asses off. If the FOP would step in and start complaining, as well, and the PBA as well.

    Maybe, then, there would be a sharp decrease in warm body employees in professional companies, and warm body companies.
    Some Kind of Commando Leader

    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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    • #17
      Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
      You know what would be wonderful? If each of those cops picked up the phone and called the security company that employed the hood rat, and complained their asses off. If the FOP would step in and start complaining, as well, and the PBA as well.

      Maybe, then, there would be a sharp decrease in warm body employees in professional companies, and warm body companies.
      Well said. That would be a lot better than taking it out on the s/o's who wanted to have good relations with them. Maybe I'll get to interact with a LEO who will return the respect that I try to show to them. Right now, I'm not feeling to 'warm and fuzzy' inside about the way it went down.

      Have a good night.
      Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

      Comment


      • #18
        A Lot of Kudos, Many Gripes

        Originally posted by Mr. Security
        After the treatment I got on one police site, it's clear to me that most cops view s/o's as contemptable. I use to be pro law enforcement, but no longer. If a cop is nice to me then I will respond in kind. Otherwise, I see them as a necessary evil in todays violent society and that's it!

        Tennsix: Thanks for your kind replies to my questions on that site Since I am not allowed to thank the VA trooper who came to my aid when all the other cops ganged up on me, I would appreciate it if you sent him a private message thanking him in my behalf.
        __________________________________________________ _______________

        I have kept silent on this issue for quite a while, but now I feel compelled to relate my opinion, so I will state my biggest "gripes" about LEO's.
        There has been good, bad, and ugly.

        The Good: Meeting honest LEO's who treat every member of the public with respect and do their work diligently. These people have my utmost respect.
        Working cooperatively with law enforcement - seeing police haul in a suspect I stopped for a burglary or a drug deal - backing a LEO on the scene of his call on one of my properties.
        These types of things have built mutual respect between police and security I have worked around and such encounters usually end with a handshake and a "thank you". I have made some wonderful friends and acquaintances in law enforcement because of mutual respect and cooperation.

        The Bad: Being treated with extreme disrespect by law enforcement. Hearing them say things like "who the f*&k called you out" or "why don't you get a real badge". Hearing them tell me things like "go wait.. waaay over there until I finish talking to this person or you're going to jail." One officer I saw even displayed the "bird" while driving past my patrol car! These guys always complain about how unprofessional they think s/o's are, but they display behavior just as bad.
        Telling members of the general public that I, as a security officer, have "no authority" and to "never cooperate" since I am not police - working patrol in apartments leads me, as a security officer, to contact many drug addicts, felons, and violent personalities and it is my job as such to put an end to criminal activity within the scope and authority of the job. These people don't need to make a challenging position worse by sticking up for the criminals and creating a false inferior image in the public eye about what we do.
        Ugly uniforms - most of the cops, at least around here, talk about having wonderful uniforms, but only 10% of the ones I see wear them properly and most of them who do have military experience. I see wrinkled uniform shirts, food stains on the pants, tattered gold cords on the pants, scratched leather gear, gear in improper places on the belt, and large bellies hanging over the belt. Yet, these same people complain about security having the same uniform errors. A lot of the public will judge you based on what you look like.
        Misrepresenting the law - I continue to see LEO's who are poorly read or poorly educated who show up on a scene and misquote the law. You would think this problem is prominent among inexperienced rookie officers, but I have seen it happen with 20 year veterans as well. Many are not read up on current criminal procedures or on penal code definitions of things like assault or family violence. This leads to poor decisions in the field.
        Profiling security - besides lack of respect or incorrect knowledge, some have taken to profiling s/o's during traffic stops. Me and many of the private patrol officers I know have been pulled over by police for stupid bs traffic violations such as not using a turn signal from enough distance, not having a bright enough license plate light, speeding 5 mph over the limit, or having cracks on the front windshield. Some of these folks were pulled over repeatedly by the same officers during the same shift. I can see this honestly happening in a community where traffic enforcement is strict and everyone there is subjected to this; however, in the city where I work they are not. Such enforcement on us is just crap, I mean come on.

        The Ugly: Some of the LEO's I have encountered are so contemptuous of security they immediately turn red in the face as soon as they see us and are no longer interested in performing their jobs. This was partially described under "The Bad", but some take it to a whole new level. "What the F&*K are you doing here!!?" is a phrase I have heard quite a bit. I have seen LEO's threaten s/o's with violence or with arrest when the s/o did not commit an offense.
        Arresting s/o's for doing the job - now, I'm not speaking of s/o's such as the one from the "security vs skateboarder" video, or of those who make blatant grand errors such as unlawful arrests, but showing up and saying he's going to jail because he's wearing a blue uniform - a blue uniform that is registered with the state and already declared official for the s/o to wear - or arresting the s/o for unlawful restraint because of using handcuffs during a lawful arrest, completely disregarding what the state's arrest laws actually state - threatening to arrest the s/o for ordering someone off the property or for asking, not demanding or forcing, ID from someone. Such charges are normally dropped by the presiding magistrate shortly after being taken into custody, but most s/o's cannot afford bail and have to sit out 72 hours in jail anyway. I'm sure LEO's are aware of this. Just a coincidence? Hmmmm - I think not.
        Refusing to do the job - refusing to take a prisoner to jail just because he was initially arrest by security - some of these suspects are hard and violent felons and they are let go. Refusing to issue trespass warnings - trying to eliminate the s/o's authority of removal as representative of property owner - they know we have to call them out as a witness to a trespass warning for it to have any legal standing and many refuse to document the warning. This basically invalidates it. Making drunks walk away down the road instead of taking them into custody - this person will most likely get run over by a car just because that LEO didn't want a stinky drunk in the car.
        Politicing with security's clientele - this happens a lot in Texas - cops going around to various clients a security company provides services to just to try to sabotage that company. Telling them things about that security company that are false, saying they break the law constantly, that they should cancel their service asap - an off-duty LEO would be much better for you. A lot of security companies have actually had to close their doors because of this kind of thing happening. I had no idea cops wanted to be security guards so badly.
        Committing crimes - occassionally we come across rotten apples in law enforcement who are what they are supposed to be opposing - criminals. Cops selling cocaine from their squad cars, taking bribes, participating in money laundering, or engaging in lewdness in the squad car. There have been quite a few times we have come across somebody getting a bj from a street hooker while in full uniform because the discount was so handy.

        Some of these things I described the the "bad" and "ugly" sections are so rampant a lot of the people I work with carry recorders just because of it. There has been a lot of good progress, but I say we still have a long way to go.
        "We appreciate all the hard work you've done, the dedicated hours you have worked, and the lives you have saved. However, since this is your third time being late to work, we are terminating your employment here."

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by 1stWatch
          __________________________________________________ _______________
          Some of these things I described the the "bad" and "ugly" sections are so rampant a lot of the people I work with carry recorders just because of it. There has been a lot of good progress, but I say we still have a long way to go.
          Funny you mentioned that, as I have had similar experiences that merited having a recorder in my pocket. I developed my own prototype system that utilizes a color button camera/microphone attached to a palm-sized micro dvr (digital video recorder) that is concealed in a rugged duty-belt detachable leather black basketweave case. Also inside the case is a small power supply for the button camera. All together the case is similar in size to a standard radio holder. The rechargable 40 Hour DVR has a built-in 3.5" color screen for immediate playback, and will synch with your PC via USB or connect to your TV/VCR via RCA.

          Basically you start recording if you encounter an incident where the subjects conduct merits it. Some states might not allow it due to privacy laws, but in the State of Minnesota you can. I carry it typically when I am working at bars/nightclubs, or an account that has a history of assault & disorderly conduct.
          Last edited by davis002; 02-08-2006, 01:52 PM.
          "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

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          • #20
            My self i really have nothing bad to say about most Police Officers. My current assignment im at now i have always had fast response time when i needed asst from them. I was surprised when i had 2 male subjects on foot at the back of my assignment heading another another property 5 units responded to Me and they stoped the subjects too. All of the officers and sgt's that i have delt with have been nice and very helpfull at all times. They check on me at times which i like because im on duty alone its just Me. I think that they are all great group of guys and have came to help me when i called on them. I will also help any of them anytime needed.

            Stay Safe All

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            • #21
              Originally posted by 1stWatch
              __________________________________________________ _______________
              These guys always complain about how unprofessional they think s/o's are, but they display behavior just as bad.
              .
              This is classic of police and I think it stems from a pervasive sense of entitlement. Not to mention their own deficiencies...they look for them in others. They do not have higher standards.

              Go to O.com and read Mr. Security's last thread..its sad really....they can't even behave as adults.
              Last edited by The_Mayor; 11-09-2005, 03:02 PM.

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              • #22
                I'll be honest - I've encountered LEOs who attempted all of the above. When I was younger, I was all "... wtf?" Now, I have a system.

                1. Your company management needs to know about these incidents. Document them in your chronolgical log, and fill out an incident report about it. Call a supervisor to the scene.

                The more security officers present, the harder it is for one bad LEO to keep on the track they're going on. If you have 3 security officers, a security supervisor, and the security supervisor is on the phone to the LEO's watch commander, its gonna turn real bad for the LEO who started down this path.

                2. Not all cops are like this. I had a problem with a patrol officer who was of the "What the F, Get the F out of here, I'm gonna arrest you" variety. His corporal pulled up shortly after, and I asked her what flavor of crack this guy was on. He was pulled from the scene and dressed down, while another officer gave me the information I needed to complete my report - on a contact which we initiated. Such things as, "That's your WITNESS, how the F do you think this'll stand up, your on PRIVATE PROPERTY, you have no PC to stop that guy without the guard!" were said to him.

                3. Just like there are idiot security officers, there are idiot police officers. Its a fact of life, we use human beings for employees in both professions. While police training has some cupability in this (control the scene at all times), alot of it is due to "good old boys" philosophy. This is a philosophy that can get LEOs in serious trouble with their citizenry, superiors, and local businesses.

                4. Politicking to the Public - This includes "Guards have bad uniforms," "You would be better off with off duty police," "You have no authority on this property, only I do," and my favorite, "All this guard can do is call us. He cannot touch you or tell you to leave. I CAN. Now leave or I'll arrest you."

                These are all issues that directly impact the smooth operation of business. Report them to your company, report them to your client, and advise them of the law. My former employer prepared a statement of Florida Law which outlined what a private citizen (Yes, security officers are citizens too, even if the police don't realize it!) can and cannot due, under Florida Statute, on their property. It also included things that the police can and cannot do. A security officer has the awesome power, that police officers do not have, of removing someone from their private property in the steed of the owner. A police officer cannot tell you to leave just because, a security officer can.

                Florida's Division of Licensing maintains that it is unethical and fraudulent activity for a security company to try to "steal accounts" by slandering the other company. Most states will probally agree. Police officers attempting to politic the contract, while acting in an official capacity, are risking their jobs for making slanderous and unethical comments.

                To me, off-duty police services and security are direct competitors. They are to alot of cops, too, who want those contracts. Most clients simply refuse to pay 40+ an hour for law enforcement services, when they need rules enforcement as well, and can get it for 18-28 an hour.

                I have never heard a law enforcement officer go after someone's equipment, duty rig, or uniform before. Mainly because in Florida, we all wore Command Shirts in LAPD Navy, and the only way to tell sworn from non-sworn was by patches.

                Up here, I'm taking the "high road" and using Steel Grey shirts and trousers, because the local police use LAPD Navy, and I want no association with the local police.

                In summary, not all police officers are like those described. Those who are doing such things are in the wrong, and do it only because they feel invunerable to the second class citizen that is the uniformed security officer. I guarantee you that they will not do it to plain clothes loss prevention, non-sworn county employees, etc. They know that their organizations will back the guy they're harassing, and boom, they're on desk duty or up on charges.

                Do not allow a bad apple to steamroll you. Get audio/video evidence - you are in a public place and can video/audio record all you want without permission. Call a supervisor to the scene, and present your evidence. Work as a company to deal with these guys. Only then will they stop.
                Some Kind of Commando Leader

                "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                Comment


                • #23
                  In short, all of those things are being done to protect ourselves from unethical behavior. Most of the officers we come into contact with are certainly like those described in paragraph one; however, if the shoe fits, wear it.
                  "We appreciate all the hard work you've done, the dedicated hours you have worked, and the lives you have saved. However, since this is your third time being late to work, we are terminating your employment here."

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by The_Mayor
                    This is classic of police and I think it stems from a pervasive sense of entitlement. Not to mention their own deficiencies...they look for them in others. They do not have higher standards.

                    Go to O.com and read Mr. Security's last thread..its sad really....they can't even behave as adults.
                    Even though I knew it is a touchy subject and that I would get some 'flak,' I was taken aback by the viciousness of many comments posted on the threat noted above by The Mayor. One VA trooper came to my aid, no doubt because VA troopers have falsely been accused of not showing p/c to other LEO's. If you read what many LEO's said about VA troopers, who are their brother officers, you will be shocked at the hatred posted on that site against the VA troopers. He (the trooper) knew what it is like when certain officers on that site smell the 'blood in the water.' It's like swimming in a river full of piranhas with a bleeding cut on your body. The outcome is obvious!
                    Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      The VSP is the creme de la creme of law enforcement..they are by far the most professional and objective LE agency that I have ever come into contact with. They enforce the law with due dilegence, they don't let officers get out of tickets by flashing tin, and they avoid the crummy "good old boys" attitude.

                      My uncle was a trooper in the VSP and he now teaches at the Univ. of Virginia.

                      I too, have picked up on the general disdain for the VSP that many officers on O.com seem to exhibit..bickering babies all of 'em.

                      I sent a letter to VSP Trooper Gillian, praising him for giving a citation to the loud mouth, whiney New Jersey cop.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                        .... There are two kinds of people in the LE world: Those who have the badge, and those who don't.
                        Ever notice how SOME in LE like to refer to everyone else as "civilians," using a tone that reveals their superior attitude towards the common people. Yet, when a major crime is committed and LE exhausts all their leads, whom do they turn to? Yea, you guessed it, those "civilians," the public/common people. And isn't it the civilians who usually notify the police when there is a crime, accident, or some other emergency?

                        If you are in LE and notice others in your department looking down on the public as if they are all stupid, please have the inner courage to speak up and condemn this type of thinking.
                        Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Well nothing is wrong with being a Citizen. After all if you are a citizen should you not be proud to be one ? I dont really think I have ever seen any police officers and i know alot of them that ever really look down on a citizen. But when it comes to the job like one person said either you have a badge or not. I think the ones they look down on are the ones that are trouble. I have seen guys when someone calls and say i hate to bother you and the officer replies this is my job he said I work for you.

                          Stay Safe All

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            There is one caveat on Officer.com - there is little proof, unlike some other forums that do sworn status verification, of the poster actually being a sworn law enforcement officer. So, their statements are automatically suspect.

                            Unforunately, I know what Mr. Security is referring to. However, you also have to remember the concept of "internet courage." The Law of Internet Courage stipulates that you will defame, harass, attack, and otherwise do things to a person that you will not do in real life, because you have the anominity of the internet to shield you from that person's wrath.

                            Behind the Shield of Internet Courage, people say amazing things. "F- all the stupid citizens," "I'm a cop, I don't have to follow the law," etc. Because they know that deep down, nobody's going to catch them saying these things in reality, and pin the comments onto them.

                            Some of us (Obivously myself) don't bother with Internet Courage, and use real names. It is, I'm told, trivial to locate where I am, as I run a business and can be traced that way. I don't really have to worry about some guy from the Internets coming to kick my ass over some forum post, and if it comes to it, that individual will recieve a warm welcome in various calibers if needs be.

                            In closing, there are cops who let their badge, official authority, and locker room "facts of life" talks go straight to their head. These cops will eventually be determined to be wack jobs, beyond recycling, and terminated with cause - if not arrested for civil rights violations. However, there are people who don't have these issues in public policing, and those that do who know how to keep them to themselves and follow the rules they're required to.

                            I could care less if a sworn officer feels himself above the law, so long as he dosen't trample over another's rights in support of his feeling. Someone else will come along and remind him that he is not above the law when it gets out of hand. It may be a FOP rep, his supervisor, a fellow officer, or a member of the public.
                            Some Kind of Commando Leader

                            "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Mr. Security
                              Ever notice how SOME in LE like to refer to everyone else as "civilians," using a tone that reveals their superior attitude towards the common people. Yet, when a major crime is committed and LE exhausts all their leads, whom do they turn to? Yea, you guessed it, those "civilians," the public/common people. And isn't it the civilians who usually notify the police when there is a crime, accident, or some other emergency?

                              If you are in LE and notice others in your department looking down on the public as if they are all stupid, please have the inner courage to speak up and condemn this type of thinking.
                              I commonly used the word "civilian". My use of the word in no way infers inferiority. When speaking with other officers, it is an easy way to delineate a uniformed/sworn public official such as fire or EMS. The definition of the word "civilian" is: A person following the pursuits of civil life, especially one who is not an active member of the military or police. Yes, I do understand what you are saying but I disagree in that we have manipulated the word to characterize one?s station in life.

                              The word police is derived from a Latin term meaning ?Power of The People?. The word its self implies we (police) derive our authority from the state. I would argue that we don?t depend on the people to solve our cases but that we are the instrument by which the people detect, solve and (hopefully) prevent ciminal activity.

                              Sorry, if that doesn?t make sense. I am in hurry-running late for work
                              Last edited by Tennsix; 11-13-2005, 06:06 AM.
                              I believe I speak for everyone here sir, when I say, to Hell with our orders.
                              -Lieutenant Commander Data
                              sigpic

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Tennsix
                                I commonly used the word "civilian". My use of the word in no way infers inferiority. When speaking with other officers, it is an easy way to delineate a uniformed/sworn public official such as fire or EMS. The definition of the word "civilian" is: A person following the pursuits of civil life, especially one who is not an active member of the military or police. Yes, I do understand what you are saying but I disagree in that we have manipulated the word to characterize one?s station in life.

                                The word police is derived from a Latin term meaning ?Power of The People?. The word its self implies we (police) derive our authority from the state. I would argue that we don?t depend on the people to solve our cases but that we are the instrument by which the people detect, solve and (hopefully) prevent ciminal activity.

                                Sorry, if that doesn?t make sense. I am in hurry-running late for work
                                The only counter I have to this, Tennsix, is that your using "we," but your only speaking for the normal sworn officers who actually do things like respect the public they serve, etc. There are some who hold a certain distain for those who are not brothers, for some reason. As I said, if they're smart, they'll keep their mouth shut around those they distain, and get to keep their job.
                                Some Kind of Commando Leader

                                "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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