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  • Use of force

    what factors determine when force is reasonable , whether to make an arrest protect property or defense of self or others? ALso how would you pick the right tool(oc,asp firearm) to use when applying force?
    "Get yourself a shovel cause your in deep Sh*t"

  • #2
    sorry for the long reply

    Bigdog....
    there is several variables that determine if you use force and if you do use force to which extent it is utilized. There is the size of the suspect, the number of suspects, does the suspect have weapons, is the suspect an immediate threat to you or to someone else, How many officers are there, what is the suspects training ? what is your training. Keep in mind on most use of force models gentle persuasion (verbal judo) is one of the first levels, you could argue that any time you have to speak to someone you are utilizing force (conflict resolution, your uniform, the way you carry yourself), In Canada we do not have the Plus 1 rule (so we cant go one up in relation to there said force) we have to use the minimal amount of force required to make the apprehension (as loss prevention) as a s/o we are discouraged to go hands on with a suspect unless we or a civillian is in danger at that instant. When it comes to force use your better judgement I am going to have to use far LESS force when a suspect that is younger and smaller then me (not to say that they cant be dangerous) then I would with a stoned crack head in the same situation. Your force can vary from words to firearm to disengaging there is a large number of factors. Keep in mind that asp, oc,firearm are just tools, I have said it for a long time and will continue to say it TACTICS over TOOLS people. obviously if someone is refusing to leave your property snapping out your asp and whacking them in the common peroneal isnt the best force option, why ? not only is it excessive but what happens if your miss your target and take out the suspects knee (you just broke buddies knee because he is to intoxicated to leave the property instantly) there is an asp study that says under stress you only hit on your target 10 % of the time. If I can walk someone off the property with an escort hold (grasping wrist other hand pincer grip on tricep elbow across your body) then I would much rather that then hip tossing them to the concrete and dragging them out by there ankles. I suppose the whole point of my constant rambling is why take un needed risks with force when you dont have to, irregardless of all this whatever you do you must be able to ARTICULATE your actions in court and write good reports. I have more to say about use of force but I am not going to go into it over a public forums.

    stay safe
    Ben

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    • #3
      In colorado, use of force, under law, is permissable in the "soft hand" level.. meaning, after an advisement is made, you can use the minimal amount of force, to include spray projectants, to overcome the subject and subdue them safely.

      Now, this is not the same level our department uses, even though it is permitted by state law. We like to first use, as said before, verbal cooperation, and if that is unsuccessful, then we try a gentle hand approach in an arrest, meaning we barely grasp the violator. This gentle grasp is enough that a 2 year could easily break away from. We want compliance without heavy action, but this is not always going to happen. If the subject throws back at us, after attempting to "lead" or control on the softest level, this will indicate to us what the subjects intentions are or may be. Now, if the subject is armed with any kind of weapon, we automatically go to OC projectants right away, one warning only, and immediate compliance or use. We dont warn again, as it would indicate to a subject that we are not serious, and weapons are unacceptable forms of deviation.

      Back to open hand.. once a subject throws back our light grasp, and it has been indicated the subject will use force against us, then depending on the subject, and the availability of assistance, our officers will go to a firmer grasp and action until they subdue the subject.

      The post before mine, indicates the factors to look out for, with the exception of the training on their part. I could never assume how much training the subject has had, but guestimate the worst possible scenerio.

      There are occassions in which extreme use of force are needed right away without much or any warning... Such an occassion, could be for example, the time we had a subject who entered one of our stores and immediately started assaulting a clothing rack. The subject was yelling at the clothing rack, demanding his car back. The the subject began punching and kicking the clothing rack, even after it fell down.

      This situation, to any reasonable thinking mind, would indicate that there is something severely wrong with this picture. The subject is very dirty, yelling obscenities at an innatimate object, physically striking the object as if it were another person when there are no others around, and continuing to agress the object after it falls over. This is what I tell my people is a "Big Red Flag". This is abnormally dangerous behavior from the subject, and chances are, approaching the subject and attempting conversation on any level would be threatening to the subject, causing a reaction from the subject to attack the officer. At this point, whatever the officer would feel would be best to safely overcome the issue at hand is authorized.

      So you have several extremes to go from, and matching these subject levels and just enough to overcome, will not get you into trouble!
      Deputy Sheriff

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Mall Director
        The post before mine, indicates the factors to look out for, with the exception of the training on their part. I could never assume how much training the subject has had, but guestimate the worst possible scenerio.
        You do not need to "guesstimate." If the subject takes a boxing or martial arts pose then that subject has some training, and you need to adjust your response accordingly.

        Also, look at the clothing the person is wearing. If they have clothing on that prominently display martial arts, ultimate fighting, etc. logos and symbols than that should also be a big warning sign that you are dealing with a trained fighter.

        Comment


        • #5
          Colorado law on use of force:

          18-1-704. Use of physical force in defense of a person.

          Statute text

          (1) Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a person is justified in using physical force upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and he may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for that purpose.

          (2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:

          (a) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury; or

          (b) The other person is using or reasonably appears about to use physical force against an occupant of a dwelling or business establishment while committing or attempting to commit burglary as defined in sections 18-4-202 to 18-4-204; or

          (c) The other person is committing or reasonably appears about to commit kidnapping as defined in section 18-3-301 or 18-3-302, robbery as defined in section 18-4-301 or 18-4-302, sexual assault as set forth in section 18-3-402, or in section 18-3-403 as it existed prior to July 1, 2000, or assault as defined in sections 18-3-202 and 18-3-203.

          18-1-707:
          (7) A private person acting on his own account is justified in using reasonable and appropriate physical force upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes it necessary to effect an arrest, or to prevent the escape from custody of an arrested person who has committed an offense in his presence; but he is justified in using deadly physical force for the purpose only when he reasonably believes it necessary to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of deadly physical force.

          Plus there are a couple of sections that deal with the use of force in protection of property and premisis, plus against intruders in your home.
          "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mall Director
            In colorado, use of force, under law, is permissable in the "soft hand" level.. meaning, after an advisement is made, you can use the minimal amount of force, to include spray projectants, to overcome the subject and subdue them safely....
            Actually the law doesn't specify "soft hand" level. It just states that a person "may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for that purpose." Plus, there is no requirement that I advise a person I will use force to prevent their behavior - there are circumstances where action is immediate and necessary.

            You can see from the laws posted for Colorado that the person using force must determine what is reasonable, and may well have to answer for it later to determine whether it was excessive or not, just like any peace officer.
            "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle

            Comment


            • #7
              for trained fighters also look for flattened nose, cuts over eyes, on lips, makiwara marks on the knuckles, callused fingers.

              just some input
              stay safe
              Ben

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by aka Bull
                Actually the law doesn't specify "soft hand" level. It just states that a person "may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for that purpose." Plus, there is no requirement that I advise a person I will use force to prevent their behavior - there are circumstances where action is immediate and necessary.

                You can see from the laws posted for Colorado that the person using force must determine what is reasonable, and may well have to answer for it later to determine whether it was excessive or not, just like any peace officer.
                Which, in almost all national training forms, and specifically when operating in colorado, or other states, it is important to use a soft hand technique, or "reasonable force" to overcome the subject. Soft hand is best described as an approach in which the use of force does not exceed the minimal amount needed. I have noticed laws in other states will not even allow that.

                We are both very fortunate to operate in Colorado, as the laws allow justification in the use of force, as long as it is reasonable.

                Of course, maintaining the ability to not become over zealous when operating, when given such leway to operate is something to keep an eye on as we go about our duties. I am like you and the next person, in that we use what we are given, in order to operate, and I also like to make sure that coming out of it smelling like a rose, is a wonderful thing, LOL!
                Deputy Sheriff

                Comment


                • #9
                  Ben

                  Do you have a trespass to property act in your province? We don't in Quebec which means we have to use force to remove anyone who won't leave when asked to. That or call the police & wait for up to an hour.
                  I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                  Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mall Director
                    Which, in almost all national training forms, and specifically when operating in colorado, or other states, it is important to use a soft hand technique, or "reasonable force" to overcome the subject. Soft hand is best described as an approach in which the use of force does not exceed the minimal amount needed. I have noticed laws in other states will not even allow that.

                    We are both very fortunate to operate in Colorado, as the laws allow justification in the use of force, as long as it is reasonable.

                    Of course, maintaining the ability to not become over zealous when operating, when given such leway to operate is something to keep an eye on as we go about our duties. I am like you and the next person, in that we use what we are given, in order to operate, and I also like to make sure that coming out of it smelling like a rose, is a wonderful thing, LOL!
                    I don't disagree that the least amount of force should always be used. There is no excuse for excessive use of force.

                    IMO what prevents an officer from going beyond the reasonable standard is 1. having a well defined use of force continuum and teaching officers how to make judgements based upon the circumstances; 2. proper defensive tactics training; 3. train, train, train.

                    I have not had a use of force complaint since I began here at the hospital and in my past work I have only ever had two use of force compalints - both unfounded after investigation.
                    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I couldnt agree with you more! Especially the training aspect. I find it so disturbing and sad when I see other departments or agencies go on a lack of training, and their people suffer from it! Personnaly, how hard is it to take some time out and go over things?
                      Deputy Sheriff

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by HotelSecurity
                        Ben

                        Do you have a trespass to property act in your province? We don't in Quebec which means we have to use force to remove anyone who won't leave when asked to. That or call the police & wait for up to an hour.
                        I'd gladly trade my (Ontario) Trespass to Property Act for your Degree Respecting Security Guards! (it basically gives security guards all sorts of benefits, including a $12.00/hr minimum wage).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by bigshotceo
                          I'd gladly trade my (Ontario) Trespass to Property Act for your Degree Respecting Security Guards! (it basically gives security guards all sorts of benefits, including a $12.00/hr minimum wage).
                          I'll take the Trespass to Property act. The decree does not apply to In-House. Officers at one of my hotels only make $10.00/hr.
                          I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                          Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I feel that I must reply to this. If you are going to use force in your duties, you must be trained in escalation/deescalation tactics. Any officer that uses force on a subject without deescalating once they have control is going to be in court along with the client and employer. You must learn the steps before you even consider use of force. I think most of you already know to go from verbal orders to physical to less lethal to lethal. But how many know when to de escalate? LEO's recieve ongoing training in this, most security officers never are trained in this. The ironic thing is that the warm body companies emphasise the observe and report philosipy wihout regard to the possibility of a subject initiating the need for force (i.e. self defense). These companies are, by their lack of action, placing themselves in a position for a big buck lawsuit. Have they considered the risk or are the just gamblers? So who could sue them? Well, the injured security officer, the injured subject, the client, the ACLU, and who knows the others. Why are they taking these risks?
                            Murphy was an optomist.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I learned this from my Dt training on my own time,
                              1.get down on the ground
                              2. stop resisting
                              3. back
                              4. give me your other hand

                              when fight or flight kicks in the hearing tends to go, so yell get down really loud as you take them to the ground or knee them in the thigh, yell it at least 3 times before expecting to get complaince, once they do get on the ground lower the tone of your voice, "just go easy now man, its over give me your hand, your getting cuffed for safety"

                              stay safe
                              Ben

                              Comment

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