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  • BailBondInvestigator
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Caesar View Post
    We have bail enforcement agents in Texas, but they can't carry firearms. not a job I'd want...
    Sure they can! One of the requirements for BEA in your state is that they be Armed Security Officer 3.

    And since I am at it......the reason BEAs have such powers is this... when a person is released on bail they have not been freed but turned over to the custody of the bondsman who make revoke the bail at any time. Additionally, if they FTA then their capture is likened to the rearrest of an escaped prisoner by the Sheriff. Due process isn't involved.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mall Director
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    Um, folks... I'm kinda running on half-cylinders right now, sorta speak, as I had my Windows partition explode and it was replaced by Linux. Glorious Linux (Gentoo for those keeping score).

    But, yeah. I'm going to agree with histfan71 on this. Unless you are well versed in Criminal Law, do not attempt to make an arrest for it. And by well versed, I mean that you can name the elements of the crime you are going to arrest for; can articulate how the violator met each element of the crime; can demonstrate under statutory or common law authority your powers to arrest; are trained in use of force and apprehension; and have the ability to properly articulate the arrest process.

    I'm pretty sure bigdog can meet those requirements. I know this because he's been making arrests for awhile now, and he hasn't been arrested for it, and the police officers he's been handing his prisoners off to want to give the prisoners even more charges.
    You are so right! We have our fair share of arrests made here, but even one part of the element in our training, to include new hires, is to become versed in these violations. Know them forward and backward, use the communication skills after the arrest to articulate to the LE that comes, and you will be enabled to operate in keepin gyour area of operation safe and secure!

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by bigdog
    Btw are you saying making a citizens arrest as a security officer makes you a wanna- be cop?
    Nope, it is the attitude of "because I am a security guard and wear a pretty uniform with a tin badge I can enforce the law the same way a cop does so that makes me the same as a cop" that makes a security guard a wanna-be.

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Um, folks... I'm kinda running on half-cylinders right now, sorta speak, as I had my Windows partition explode and it was replaced by Linux. Glorious Linux (Gentoo for those keeping score).

    But, yeah. I'm going to agree with histfan71 on this. Unless you are well versed in Criminal Law, do not attempt to make an arrest for it. And by well versed, I mean that you can name the elements of the crime you are going to arrest for; can articulate how the violator met each element of the crime; can demonstrate under statutory or common law authority your powers to arrest; are trained in use of force and apprehension; and have the ability to properly articulate the arrest process.

    I'm pretty sure bigdog can meet those requirements. I know this because he's been making arrests for awhile now, and he hasn't been arrested for it, and the police officers he's been handing his prisoners off to want to give the prisoners even more charges.

    Leave a comment:


  • bigdog
    replied
    Sorry histfan71 I misunderstood. Yeah actually your right in some regard you , have to know what arrest authority you have before you use it and know what laws you can enforce witrh it as well as knowing what elements make up the crime. False arrest= false imprisonment here ,thats a third degree felony and they probably arrest you with your own handcuffs. How embarrasing is that.Btw are you saying making a citizens arrest as a security officer makes you a wanna- be cop?

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by bigdog
    tell you what histfa71 look at florida state statutes and tell me im wrong.
    Bigdog, I was saying that dhcp was wrong and I was complementing you for pointing it out. This dhcp guy is the worst kind of wanna-be cop security guard.

    In addition to getting arrested for impersonating a police officer dhcp is also going to get charged with false arrest one of these days, mark my words.

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  • bigdog
    replied
    tell you what histfa71 look at florida state statutes and tell me im wrong.

    For offenses committed after July 1, 2001, "burglary" means:


    1. Entering a dwelling, a structure, or a conveyance with the intent to commit an offense therein, unless the premises are at the time open to the public or the defendant is licensed or invited to enter; or

    2. Notwithstanding a licensed or invited entry, remaining in a dwelling, structure, or conveyance:

    a. Surreptitiously, with the intent to commit an offense therein;

    b. After permission to remain therein has been withdrawn, with the intent to commit an offense therein; or c. To commit or attempt to commit a forcible felony, as defined in s. 776.08.

    ) It is grand theft of the third degree and a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084, if the property stolen is:


    1. Valued at $300 or more, but less than $5,000.

    2. Valued at $5,000 or more, but less than $10,000.

    3. Valued at $10,000 or more, but less than $20,000.

    4. A will, codicil, or other testamentary instrument.

    5. A firearm. 6. A motor vehicle, except as provided in paragraph (2)(a).
    Last edited by bigdog; 07-23-2006, 05:39 AM.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by dhcp
    im still a little unclear about certain situations.. for instance, say you're working an apartment complex and a vehicle is broken into.. and you witness the crime.. its not a felony to break into an unoccupied vehicle.. nor is it a felony to attempt to steal the car.. so really, you cant detain them as a civilian as common law may dictate.. but you can't just "let them go" either.. and they are most definitely not going to just stop and surrender peacefully and voluntarily..
    Originally posted by bigdog
    Um.. Breaking into an unoccupied car is burglary and attempting to steal a car is attempted grand theft. Those are both felonies.
    Bigdog you illustrate my point exactly about why security guards should not be enforcing the law, MOST security guards do not know the laws they want to enforce!

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  • bigdog
    replied
    Originally posted by dhcp
    yes, i agree. i will say this. florida does support uniformed security officers quite a bit. up until last year, licensed security officers were not permitted to use semi-automatic weapons without obtaining a state waiver which wasn't easily acquired. that changed and now all properly licensed security personnel can legally carry semi-automatic weapons.

    the house just passed a bill effective July 1st, 2006 that now makes it a third degree felony to batter a licensed security officer.. a change moving the offense upward from its previous class of a 1st degree misdemeanor. aggrevated battery and aggrevated assault are also now felonies.

    this new legislation takes effect on crimes committed on and after July 1st of 2006.. and its amazing cause the proposed bill unanimously passed. there were only 11 NO votes between the house and senate.. so its good to see there is some consideraiton out there for the profession.. I do wish they'd make some statutory revisions to define the circumstances in which security personnel may make a detention and/or arrest..

    im still a little unclear about certain situations.. for instance, say you're working an apartment complex and a vehicle is broken into.. and you witness the crime.. its not a felony to break into an unoccupied vehicle.. nor is it a felony to attempt to steal the car.. so really, you cant detain them as a civilian as common law may dictate.. but you can't just "let them go" either.. and they are most definitely not going to just stop and surrender peacefully and voluntarily..

    so to do your job effecitvely, you are left to detain the suspect.. and regardless of what information florida statutes lack, the police will most likely cart the individual to jail.. but its just nice to have some level of governmental support when exercising those decisions.. and our statutes just aren't clear enough about them.. which is one reason why I agree there needs to be a balance between rights and power, but also definition.

    Um.. Breaking into an unoccupied car is burglary and attempting to steal a car is attempted grand theft. Those are both felonies.

    Leave a comment:


  • dhcp
    replied
    Originally posted by aka Bull
    As I recall we notified local law enforcement usually that we were about to take a jumper. If nothing else for our safety if they got called to the scene.

    dhcp - I really don't see that we are really any distance apart on what the industry needs. I think the biggest difference we may have is at what level of government it should be regulated.

    I am as much for fair and reasonable regulation of the bail enforcement industry as I am for private security. I just realistically believe - for both - this is going to need to be accomplished at the state levels. the feds aren't going to play in this "small pond" so to speak.

    In any regulation, for either industry, there has to be a balance of authority versus the rights of others, professional standards, training, and certification for all involved. This type of improvement is only going to come from those working in the industries trying to get the improvements in place.

    Would you agree?


    yes, i agree. i will say this. florida does support uniformed security officers quite a bit. up until last year, licensed security officers were not permitted to use semi-automatic weapons without obtaining a state waiver which wasn't easily acquired. that changed and now all properly licensed security personnel can legally carry semi-automatic weapons.

    the house just passed a bill effective July 1st, 2006 that now makes it a third degree felony to batter a licensed security officer.. a change moving the offense upward from its previous class of a 1st degree misdemeanor. aggrevated battery and aggrevated assault are also now felonies.

    this new legislation takes effect on crimes committed on and after July 1st of 2006.. and its amazing cause the proposed bill unanimously passed. there were only 11 NO votes between the house and senate.. so its good to see there is some consideraiton out there for the profession.. I do wish they'd make some statutory revisions to define the circumstances in which security personnel may make a detention and/or arrest..

    im still a little unclear about certain situations.. for instance, say you're working an apartment complex and a vehicle is broken into.. and you witness the crime.. its not a felony to break into an unoccupied vehicle.. nor is it a felony to attempt to steal the car.. so really, you cant detain them as a civilian as common law may dictate.. but you can't just "let them go" either.. and they are most definitely not going to just stop and surrender peacefully and voluntarily..

    so to do your job effecitvely, you are left to detain the suspect.. and regardless of what information florida statutes lack, the police will most likely cart the individual to jail.. but its just nice to have some level of governmental support when exercising those decisions.. and our statutes just aren't clear enough about them.. which is one reason why I agree there needs to be a balance between rights and power, but also definition.
    Last edited by dhcp; 07-22-2006, 05:16 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr. Security
    replied
    Originally posted by dhcp
    ......................
    Ask yourself why DOGG never comes to Florida to apprehend suspects. Because our laws suck for bail agents. Thats why.
    Isn't he a convicted felon, which is why he can't carry a firearm? Also, his appearance doesn't help the public's image of bounty hunters. I'm not saying that he doesn't have a 'heart' or isn't empathetic. However, if convicted, he doesn't even qualify to work contract security in most states, let alone exercise the broad powers of BEA's in many states.

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Um. wow.


    BTW... I'll address what I can. First, "detainment" is only statutorly authorized for retail theft, armed trespass, or trespass on a construction site. The Florida Courts have held that a citzen may make a citizen's arrest for any observed breach of the peace, or any felony of which the arresting citizen has knolwedge of.

    Attempting to detain someone for a felony or breach of the peace is judicial suicide. Use the proper terms or you will be beaten, the court considers any "detainment" a citizen (Even LEO out of jurisdiction) makes an arrest unless governed under a detainment statue.

    Leave a comment:


  • aka Bull
    replied
    Originally posted by dhcp
    and I'm not one hundred percent positive.. but I believe in California you either have to have a police officer present with you at the time you serve the warrant, or you have establish a law enforcement contact to notify them of the bail enforcement prior to enforcing it.. something like that.. so law enforcement personnel in California are accustomed and probably accepting of the fact the state requires their involvement.. to an extent..

    here in Florida.. I'm pretty sure there are no similiar requirements.. meaning if you call an agency to assist you, you'll be lucky if they even show up.
    As I recall we notified local law enforcement usually that we were about to take a jumper. If nothing else for our safety if they got called to the scene.

    dhcp - I really don't see that we are really any distance apart on what the industry needs. I think the biggest difference we may have is at what level of government it should be regulated.

    I am as much for fair and reasonable regulation of the bail enforcement industry as I am for private security. I just realistically believe - for both - this is going to need to be accomplished at the state levels. the feds aren't going to play in this "small pond" so to speak.

    In any regulation, for either industry, there has to be a balance of authority versus the rights of others, professional standards, training, and certification for all involved. This type of improvement is only going to come from those working in the industries trying to get the improvements in place.

    Would you agree?

    Leave a comment:


  • dhcp
    replied
    Originally posted by aka Bull
    I agree with you about my friend. That's why I stopped working with him.

    Yes, the laws seem over restrictive in Florida. Heck, in CA we would go to areas we were not familiar with, so we'd get a local BEA to assist us - for a portion of the recovery. Got no problems with that.
    and I'm not one hundred percent positive.. but I believe in California you either have to have a police officer present with you at the time you serve the warrant, or you have to establish contact with a governing agency to notify them of the bail enforcement prior to enforcing it.. something like that.. so law enforcement personnel in California are accustomed and probably accepting of the fact the state requires their involvement.. to an extent..

    here in Florida.. I'm pretty sure there are no similiar requirements.. meaning if you call an agency to assist you, you'll be lucky if they even show up.

    Leave a comment:


  • aka Bull
    replied
    Originally posted by dhcp
    As a civilian, I could look up people all day long with warrants through the Florida Department of Law Enforcement website (governing state agency for all law enforcement agencies in the state) and call the police to serve the warrant. Do you think they'd care? I'd be consuming their resources on issues that are non-priority to THEM. Why would they think any different for bail enforcement? In fact, if I was uniformed patrol, I would cringe at showing up on site having to assist someone in bail enforcement. Why should it be my problem as a police officer that bail enforcement isnt given enough power to apprehend suspects they're pursuing? The police technically did their job. They arrested the suspect. As far as they're concerned, they're done with the individual.

    And any DUI violator who "misses a court date" could call the clerk of the court and should absolutely know when they must appear. They are served or mailed the information directly. Even repeat offenders do not spend their "life in court". Appearing in court is not an option, it's a requirement. Very rarely is there a circumstance that would justify an unannounced absence. Chances are, if someone misses a court date, it's due to some type of irresponsibility, either intentional or accidental. That is not the court's problem.
    You are right, it's not the courts problem. What i was merely pointing out your statement isn't as always as cut and dried.

    The feelings of the police to bail agents is very similar to the feelings towards private security - of this I think we'll agree. Yet, I have had the police respond to a scene to assist in recovering a jumper - they didn't like it but they had little choice. It happened only once or twice. My partner and I usually took the jumper down in public - less chance of them fighting us over the "arrest".

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