Guard Detained in Bank Shooting

[1stWatch Member Find all posts View Profile Close 1stWatch]

Kansas City, KS:
Clifford O'Rear, 53, a security guard at a local bank, was taken into custody for his role in a shooting that happened inside the bank. So far he is not being charged with a crime, but the details of the investigation haven't yet been divulged.

http://www.kctv.com/global/story.asp?s=5079877

Remember, if you shoot somebody you will go to jail. Submitting that is was justified is a battle you will have to fight in the courtroom of a grand jury. In the meantime expect to lose your license to operate and sit in jail.

[N. A. Corbier Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close N. A. Corbier]

Unlike Police Officers, you are guilty until proven innocent after shooting someone. Period.

BTW, this man has obviously been trained. I quote from the article:
As police were investigating, the security guard started to feel chest pains, so medics took him to a hospital to be checked out before they took him to jail.

That's the first thing we were told to do after a shooting. Call the company, call the police, and the moment they show up, feel chest pains and demand to be transported to the hospital.

This is a delaying tactic. By the time the doctors in the emergency room realize that you aren't having a medical emergency, the company has already gotten the attorney down there and is advising you to invoke your rights.

[EMTGuard Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close EMTGuard]

I work with an officer who did Armed Security years ago. He tells a story of a coworker who on duty at a chemical plant when 2 truck drivers began fighting. The officer responded and saw one driver grab a crowbar from a truck and begin beating the other driver. The Officer ordered the assailant to stop and the officer drew his firearm. He fired at teh driver with the crowbar and killed him. The Officer claimed to be acting legally by stopping a violent felony assault. The police, a jury and the judge saw it as homicide. The Officer went to prison.
Not good.
Carrying a gun on duty and being put into situations like this can be made a lot worse when your company can't get you good legal help before and after a shoot.

[jeff194307 Member Find all posts View Profile Close jeff194307]

This is the end result of having a person who is armed, but not properly trained in the use of lethal force. Having been an officer at one of the moost violent prisons in the country (Pelican Bay State Prison) I have seen this go both ways. The thing an armed officer must remember is that the only justificstion for shooting is to prevent death or serious injury. Having said that, we must also remember that a decision made by you as an officer in miliseconds is then scrutinized by the attorney's for hours. You must be able to prove beyond a resonable doubt that you truly believed that your actions were needed to prevent death of another person or yourself. The shooting of a person who is beating another with anything is not the correct action unless the beating continues after the victim can no longer put up any sort of defense. All, I mean all officers who carry a firearm must have a less leathal weapon at their disposal for use to stop the situation before deadly force is needed. That is the reason for carry of batons, tazers and gas. Anyone who is at an armed post that only provides lethal force is eventually going to find legal problems. And yes, the use of deadly force will almost always result in the arrest of the shooter.

[aka Bull Member Find all posts View Profile Close aka Bull]

From my reading of the article it seems to me the police have some question as to why the officer would have used his weapon. They don't believe a robbery attempt was being made by the man, so i can only wonder if this officer totally stepped over the line.

Unfortunately there are many needs in this day and age for armed security, yet the level of training is woefully inadequate before handing a firearm to an officer. Companies likely wouldn't want to go the expense of properly vetting and training officers to carry firearms in the performance of their duties. One would expect, IMHO, at least as close scrutiny and training as a leo gets before he/she is handed a firearm.

Heck I don't carry a firearm and yet the only aspects of a leo background not done on me for my current position was a polygraph and field interviews of my neighbors to determine if there was anything that would disqualify me for my job. The one thing in my favor was about 8 months on the account as a contract officer (and company site lead), so they knew me and how I worked, handled, and reacted in the hospital.

[N. A. Corbier Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close N. A. Corbier]

Training is a big issue. Florida mandates 28 hours of training in firearms for "Class 'G' Armed Security Officers." Florida mandates 30 hours (2 credit hour course) in "weapons" for the Florida Certified Law Enforcement Officer program. This includes intermediate weapons. The Florida "Class G" course only concerns itself with firearms.

I don't think the issue of "police have more training" comes to play in some situations, after all... 2 hours more training doesn't equate to much. Its "What is the security officer being taught" and how much of it is range time?

[1stWatch Member Find all posts View Profile Close 1stWatch]

Training is a big issue. Florida mandates 28 hours of training in firearms for "Class 'G' Armed Security Officers." Florida mandates 30 hours (2 credit hour course) in "weapons" for the Florida Certified Law Enforcement Officer program. This includes intermediate weapons. The Florida "Class G" course only concerns itself with firearms.

I don't think the issue of "police have more training" comes to play in some situations, after all... 2 hours more training doesn't equate to much. Its "What is the security officer being taught" and how much of it is range time?

Am I reading this correctly? Florida law enforcement officers get only 30 hours of training? I was under the impression police have several hundred credit hours of training in most states. That doesn't sound very impressive.

[jeff194307 Member Find all posts View Profile Close jeff194307]

I believe that the 30 hours is the requirement for academy graduation, not a true reflection of on going training. My experience was training updates every 90 days and an annual recertification which was an 8 hour course. I am sure that Florida has similar requirements for Peace Officers. The problem, when you get into private security is the companies just don't want to pay for the training. If anyone is doing armed security, it is in their best interest to get all the training that they can, even if they have to pay for it.

[N. A. Corbier Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close N. A. Corbier]

Am I reading this correctly? Florida law enforcement officers get only 30 hours of training? I was under the impression police have several hundred credit hours of training in most states. That doesn't sound very impressive.

The "Criminal Justice Weapons" segment of the "Academy Track" Associate Degree in Science "Criminal Justice" degree is 2 credit hours. It is only one segment of the degree work.

My point is that police officers get 30 clock hours of training in weapons. (All these 30+ hour courses add up to 720 hours total) Security Officers get 28 clock hours of instruction, usually in a week's time using 8-12 hour courses, instead of 1-2 "1 credit hour" classes a week spread over 15 weeks.

Keep in mind that quite a bit of that 720 hour course is in various subjects.

[1stWatch Member Find all posts View Profile Close 1stWatch]

The "Criminal Justice Weapons" segment of the "Academy Track" Associate Degree in Science "Criminal Justice" degree is 2 credit hours. It is only one segment of the degree work.

My point is that police officers get 30 clock hours of training in weapons. (All these 30+ hour courses add up to 720 hours total) Security Officers get 28 clock hours of instruction, usually in a week's time using 8-12 hour courses, instead of 1-2 "1 credit hour" classes a week spread over 15 weeks.

Keep in mind that quite a bit of that 720 hour course is in various subjects.

I see. Yes, that sounds more reasonable.

[N. A. Corbier Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close N. A. Corbier]

I see. Yes, that sounds more reasonable.

Yeah. This is something that people tend to forget, that 720 hour course is in varied subjects. This is why I love it when I hear a sworn officer say, "I have had 720 hours training, I'm more qualified to do ____________ than you are."

Alright, say, operate a firearm. Of those 720 hours of training, 30 are in the actual instruction in operating firearms. That's a whole 2 hours more than a private security officer. Except that in those 30 hours, they also teach intermediate weapons.

[GCMC Security Member Find all posts View Profile Close GCMC Security]

Training is a big issue. Florida mandates 28 hours of training in firearms for "Class 'G' Armed Security Officers." Florida mandates 30 hours (2 credit hour course) in "weapons" for the Florida Certified Law Enforcement Officer program. This includes intermediate weapons. The Florida "Class G" course only concerns itself with firearms.

I think one reason for that is the fact the state named the license Class G "Statewide Firearms License"

I am of the school of thought, like previously mentioned, that you must have an intermediate weapon. I was once offered an armed position and told I could not carry any other weapon. I declined.

Nathan, Bigdog and others like me who have worked in low income housing and not so shiny neighborhoods can attest to the fact being stuck with just a firearm is no good. I believe that I have resolved more issues by diplaying/deploying non lethal weapons than I have by drawing a firearm.

[N. A. Corbier Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close N. A. Corbier]

GCMC, I had a client order me to take all my intermediate weapons off.

I walked around for 12 hours with nothing but a .357 Magnum in a level three holster and a Streamlight Stinger. When asked, I told the kids who liked to test us that I had no choice but to shoot them if they attacked me.

Next day, the client's boss at corporate told him to stop telling us what we can and cannot carry. The client had been told by the police department that security guards cannot carry intermediate weapons. They were after the contract for themselves.

[T202 Member Find all posts View Profile Close T202]

Security guard charged with aggravated assault.

http://www.wdaftv4.com/

[1stWatch Member Find all posts View Profile Close 1stWatch]

I see his client thought highly enough of him to hire him some legal representation. That's more than most get who are in his position.