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  • CamelBaks on Patrol??

    So....some of my guys have come to me and asked about the possibility of using CamelBaks while on rounds or doing parking detail this summer. I am not opposed to the idea as I use mine for just about everything but work. I told them it would be considered BUT they would all have to purchase their own and they would have to be pseudo-uniform for any officer wishing to use one.

    I own a CamelBAk M.U.L.E. that is great for hiking, but seems to be a bit much to just walk or stand around a 200-ish acre facility. I like the idea of having a whole 3L of water available, though.

    Does anyone have experience using these at work? Ideally, they would be simple, not flashy or loaded with pockets and such. I want to keep them cost-effective (most of these guys are college kids) and avoid the mall ninja look. I would even go so far as to say a yellow or other "safety" color pack would be ideal. Yes, I know what is available. What I am looking for is experienced feedback on their usage in the security field. Another note, over the summer our campus "rents" a lot of the facilities out to bring in additional revenue, so the campus is busy but without all of the students and administrators.

    Any suggestions?

    Thanks!
    A wise son hears his father's instruction,but a scoffer does not listen to rebuke. Proverbs 13:1

    "My “Black-Ops” history ensures that you will never know about the missions I accepted in my younger days, and Vietnam still shudders when it hears the name of a an assasin so skillful and deadly, he is remembered decades later. " G-45

  • #2
    Originally posted by CTEXSEC1 View Post
    ...(most of these guys are college kids)...
    The only suggestion I can offer is: Be prepared to check the liquid contents.
    "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

    "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

    "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

    "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

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    • #3
      The only times I used one on duty was on bike patrol and on disaster duty in Louisiana. Both times I was in heat around 80-110 degrees and was either out in the elements for over an hour or in an area where potable water was scarce or simply did not exist. Mine was a regular one pocket OD green one. Nothing too fancy.
      "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
      "The Curve" 1998

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      • #4
        I don't know, part of me says that it should not be allowed, but then again you are located in Texas and we are talking about your summers. I have a ton of them and have used them at work, but they where always kept in the vehicle and usually hung off the back of my seat. If at my site they were to be allowed, I can honestly say I would only allow it if one of two conditions exsisted (a) my officers were standing at a fixed exterior post (like traffic control or access control to the facility) or (b) immediately following a natural disaster where safe water may be questionable if obtained from the site. Since I, nor my client or company would be providing them I would simply require that they have at most two small pockets (no huge backpacks), and be of a single color (Black would be prefered, but since we aren't purchasing them any single color would be acceptable).
        Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be courageous; be strong. - 1 Corinthians 16:13

        The cleanliness of our hearts, The strength of our limbs, and commitment to our promise.

        My military contract is up and over. However, I never needed to affirm that I would defend the constitution, our freedoms, our way of life from enemies both domestic and foreign. Do not think that since I am no longer in the military, I will not pick up a weapon to defend my family, my home or my country. - Me!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
          The only suggestion I can offer is: Be prepared to check the liquid contents.
          It would be pretty easy to tell which ones were boozing down here. Especially in 100+. They would be the ones laying on the ground passed out.

          Originally posted by Lawson View Post
          The only times I used one on duty was on bike patrol and on disaster duty in Louisiana. Both times I was in heat around 80-110 degrees and was either out in the elements for over an hour or in an area where potable water was scarce or simply did not exist. Mine was a regular one pocket OD green one. Nothing too fancy.
          80-110...sounds like Christmas down here. I hadn't even thought of the disaster side of it, but that sounds like one more thing in the officers' favor.

          Originally posted by FireRanger View Post
          I don't know, part of me says that it should not be allowed, but then again you are located in Texas and we are talking about your summers. I have a ton of them and have used them at work, but they where always kept in the vehicle and usually hung off the back of my seat. If at my site they were to be allowed, I can honestly say I would only allow it if one of two conditions exsisted (a) my officers were standing at a fixed exterior post (like traffic control or access control to the facility) or (b) immediately following a natural disaster where safe water may be questionable if obtained from the site. Since I, nor my client or company would be providing them I would simply require that they have at most two small pockets (no huge backpacks), and be of a single color (Black would be prefered, but since we aren't purchasing them any single color would be acceptable).
          Part of me wants to tell my staff to suck it up because I have worked in awful weather conditions and survived. However, my goal is to always be a better supervisor than I had.
          A wise son hears his father's instruction,but a scoffer does not listen to rebuke. Proverbs 13:1

          "My “Black-Ops” history ensures that you will never know about the missions I accepted in my younger days, and Vietnam still shudders when it hears the name of a an assasin so skillful and deadly, he is remembered decades later. " G-45

          Comment


          • #6
            Just because we had to deal with the extreme's without these things does not mean it isn't OK for them to use it. I have worked many posts without it, and it freaking sucked. It would depend on the usage though. I kept one slim (bladder only) in my car in black and would use that when working the heat, but the only problem I have run into is company side. The one I am with now doesn't like them even though the clients say it's fantastic to stay hydrated (But GINORMOUS funky colored water coolers are OK to drag around... go figure). During disaster relief and overseas it's a non-issue... and after all it's just water, as long as it isn't some wild and crazy design I see nothing wrong with it and view it the same as a canteen on their belt. And as for the site... perhaps. Lots of sites I have worked at there is no water, nasty water, or limited supply (like far away from the guard shack). In the end though it's just water and as all ex-military people probably remember you can't ever drink to little... if your thirsty it's to late your body is already dehydrated. But I would limit it to slim lines and proper colors if it were me. I would inspect it to see if it was soda though... I can see some guys doing that or coffee to stay awake and I would ban them from using it after I caught them doing that. Canteen in car or guard shack for those is fine but when your supposed to be hydrating ... no.

            Even working outside a building in a parking lot where you have access to water by going inside you don't want your guards spending half the time unlocking the building to get back inside. With this they don't have to. I really don't see any downsides other than if they leaked or if your working inside a building with water not needed. It's not like they don't look professional or the police wouldn't use them. Especially here in the south it just seems cruel to not let them have these.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by CTEXSEC1 View Post
              ... my goal is to always be a better supervisor than I had.
              Sounds to me like you just answered your question.

              Excellent leadership attitude, BTW.

              The only suggestion I have is that if the camelbacks are intended primarily for the use of parking lot foot patrol personnel, you might consider something high-viz and reflective. Not nearly as uniform-looking and sharp, but if OSHA (or whoever) would require hi-viz vests for these people, then a hi-viz water bladder is probably appropriate; your employer may even be able to spring for them in that case as well.

              Good question, and good thread.
              "I'll defend with my life your right to disagree with me" - anonymous

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              • #8
                Originally posted by 5423 View Post
                but if OSHA (or whoever) would require hi-viz vests for these people, then a hi-viz water bladder is probably appropriate; your employer may even be able to spring for them in that case as well..
                We had some posts like this in high traffic area's. I just do what I always do, tell them to pick a one size above the size that fits for the vest. I do this for duty belt but it works to go over anything else as well. I always tell them if they are going to stay here to invest in a nice vest and not the cheap ones for work. WELL worth the money and extremely more professional looking than some fishnet orange thing that looks like it could double in a night club from the 80's.

                What sucks is having to take all this **** off to go to the can. Good god, nightmares of trying to use a porta-john in New Orleans and take all these things off and NOT have anything fall into the nasty hole behind you come into play. Like the heat and humidity in those little sweat box's wasn't bad enough. In Galveston we drilled holes for one just for security guards and put a lock on it. Wire coat hangers hang great in the vent holes by the top for gear... if you ever have this nightmare. The giant handicapped ones are fantastic, but never around and getting one JUST for security is not something the client will foot the bill for.

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                • #9
                  Hydration station ?

                  The push for the camel backs is due to guards not not having enough access to drinkable water . While I know that wearing a pack of any kind will soak your back when it gets hot . Not to mention it does not look very professional . My Idea is to rotate your guards around from inside to outside post and vice versa on an hourly basics . At these changes the incoming guards should go hydrate at this time . If at all possible I would scatter coolers at the outdoor static post to create make shift hydration stations . While this is going to be more expensive for the company it will avoid the temptations of lugging around soda , coffee , or even booze being smuggled into the packs.

                  I will say that if you do allow the use of the camel backs I would as the supervisor do an inspection of the bladders and smell the insides for either booze , soda or something foul that needs to be cleaned out like mold or something else growing in the bladder.
                  Confronted with the choice, the American people would choose the policeman's truncheon over the anarchist's bomb.
                  Spiro Agnew

                  Why yes I am a glorified babysitter , I am here to politely ask you to follow the rules , if not daddy comes to spank you and put you in time out its your choice - Me

                  Luck is a red hair woman , if you ever dated one you know there remarkably dangerous , my personal preference is to be competent and let luck join the ride if she so chooses .- Clint Smith

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                  • #10
                    You would then have to protect the coolers from tampering, or simply students emptying the coolers of anything in them.

                    The rotation idea is sound, we tend to forget that you really shouldn't have a guard out there in 110 degree weather for 6-8 hours.

                    If its really that hot out there, they should most likely be in hot weather uniforms, (coolmax polos and shorts), and in that case, it really doesn't matter if they have camelbaks on. If they're out there in Class B uniforms in 110 degree weather for hours at a time with little to no shade on a static post... There's more important problems (and OSHA liability) to address.
                    Some Kind of Commando Leader

                    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by psycosteve View Post
                      The push for the camel backs is due to guards not not having enough access to drinkable water . While I know that wearing a pack of any kind will soak your back when it gets hot . Not to mention it does not look very professional .I am more concerned about heat stroke than someone thinking my guys are "unprofessional." I also don't want them constantly unlocking buildings to get water and not doing their primary duties. My Idea is to rotate your guards around from inside to outside post and vice versa on an hourly basics . I don't have enough personnel to do this.At these changes the incoming guards should go hydrate at this time . If at all possible I would scatter coolers at the outdoor static post to create make shift hydration stations . I thought about this, but the logistics just don't work out. Instead of being where they are supposed to, my guys would be spending half of their shift (250 acres is a hike) walking back to the cooler.While this is going to be more expensive for the company it will avoid the temptations of lugging around soda , coffee , or even booze being smuggled into the packs.

                      I will say that if you do allow the use of the camel backs I would as the supervisor do an inspection of the bladders and smell the insides for either booze , soda or something foul that needs to be cleaned out like mold or something else growing in the bladder.
                      they will definitely be inspected by shift supervisors. My guys, even the ones who are my closest friends, know that I show no partiality and will be on them like white on rice if they step out too far.

                      Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
                      You would then have to protect the coolers from tampering, or simply students emptying the coolers of anything in them.

                      The rotation idea is sound, we tend to forget that you really shouldn't have a guard out there in 110 degree weather for 6-8 hours. If I have the luxury of 2 or more officers on a shift, I make them go on rounds or whatever for a max. of 75 minutes. Then, they have to go back to the guard house and rotate.

                      If its really that hot out there, they should most likely be in hot weather uniforms, (coolmax polos and shorts), Despite my objections, the officers are allowed to wear shorts in the summertime. Unfortunately, our superiors thought black polos were a great idea. and in that case, it really doesn't matter if they have camelbaks on. If they're out there in Class B uniforms in 110 degree weather for hours at a time with little to no shade on a static post... There's more important problems (and OSHA liabilityto address.
                      )What OSHA liability is that? As far as I have been able to find, they signed on knowing the conditions, including weather, and have to deal with it. I try to make shifts as comfortable as possible, however.
                      A wise son hears his father's instruction,but a scoffer does not listen to rebuke. Proverbs 13:1

                      "My “Black-Ops” history ensures that you will never know about the missions I accepted in my younger days, and Vietnam still shudders when it hears the name of a an assasin so skillful and deadly, he is remembered decades later. " G-45

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 5423 View Post
                        Sounds to me like you just answered your question.

                        Excellent leadership attitude, BTW.

                        Thanks. I try to lead from the front like my supervisor does. We put in crappy hours, cover shifts for free, and relieve guys on our vacations. We have a relationship with our officers that the upper echelon does not. I will not hesitate to order pizza for my guys or take them out for beers after work. We are all close since I just graduated recently and many of these student officers were my classmates. Of course, this presents challenges that we have already had to discuss.

                        The only suggestion I have is that if the camelbacks are intended primarily for the use of parking lot foot patrol personnel, you might consider something high-viz and reflective. Not nearly as uniform-looking and sharp, but if OSHA (or whoever) would require hi-viz vests for these people, then a hi-viz water bladder is probably appropriate; your employer may even be able to spring for them in that case as well.

                        Good question, and good thread.
                        I wonder if CB makes a traffic-type pack. I like the hi-vis idea.
                        A wise son hears his father's instruction,but a scoffer does not listen to rebuke. Proverbs 13:1

                        "My “Black-Ops” history ensures that you will never know about the missions I accepted in my younger days, and Vietnam still shudders when it hears the name of a an assasin so skillful and deadly, he is remembered decades later. " G-45

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by CTEXSEC1 View Post
                          I wonder if CB makes a traffic-type pack. I like the hi-vis idea.

                          I've seen some hi-viz hydration packs in USAR equipment catalogs, etc. Did a quick search (out of memory) and came up with the Drink! "Guardian" 100 oz. hydration unit (backpack) w/ tear-away shoulder straps (that might just be a handy safety feature for security personnel...); comes in lime-green or safety-orange, both with yellow reflective striping tape; available online for $55 at:

                          www.firecache.com/prodinfo.asp?number=70.9150

                          (Just FYI: I have no connection whatsoever with the above company; its just the first supplier I thought of. Some of the LEO suppliers, etc, may have a comparable product line as well.)
                          "I'll defend with my life your right to disagree with me" - anonymous

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by CTEXSEC1 View Post
                            they will definitely be inspected by shift supervisors. My guys, even the ones who are my closest friends, know that I show no partiality and will be on them like white on rice if they step out too far.



                            )What OSHA liability is that? As far as I have been able to find, they signed on knowing the conditions, including weather, and have to deal with it. I try to make shifts as comfortable as possible, however.
                            Employers have a duty to provide personal protective equipment for workers who are routinely and occupationally exposed to high temperature environments.

                            Your workers can "sign on" knowing the conditions all they want. If you have employees who begin experiencing heat stress to a reportable level (OSHA 200 Log), an OSHA complaint, random investigation, or for cause investigation may reveal that your company has not followed the OSHA Technical Manual requirements for managing employee heat stress risks.

                            I have found that a lot of security companies believe themselves exempt from OSHA regulation, and suddenly that bites them in the ass. This behavior also goes over into proprietary security, which may have a higher risk index of OSHA inspection due to the other employee classifications they have.
                            Some Kind of Commando Leader

                            "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
                              Employers have a duty to provide personal protective equipment for workers who are routinely and occupationally exposed to high temperature environments.

                              Your workers can "sign on" knowing the conditions all they want. If you have employees who begin experiencing heat stress to a reportable level (OSHA 200 Log), an OSHA complaint, random investigation, or for cause investigation may reveal that your company has not followed the OSHA Technical Manual requirements for managing employee heat stress risks.

                              I have found that a lot of security companies believe themselves exempt from OSHA regulation, and suddenly that bites them in the ass. This behavior also goes over into proprietary security, which may have a higher risk index of OSHA inspection due to the other employee classifications they have.
                              It's times like this that I have to shake my head at OSHA. I grew up on a farm in Texas and played football until a neck injury my senior year of high school. There was nothing to "protect" us from the big, bad sun. You sucked it up, worked through it, and drank water. I will never understand why it is the employer's responsibility to make sure the employee is smart enough to drink water. That said, I still try to provide whatever breaks I can. My old man was a hard one and it shows in how I do my job. I cannot expect people to work like I do. I just want them to give it a good, consistent effort. If an officer tells me it's too damn hot, I will pull them inside and cover their post. I will do what I can to make their job less difficult. The PPE for hot weather is definitely a new one me. Perhaps that is because I don't deal with that side of security. I am just the supervisor, nothing more than a peon with a few stripes. In a university setting, I have 4 bosses + a BoD to deal with. I assume that is their problem.
                              A wise son hears his father's instruction,but a scoffer does not listen to rebuke. Proverbs 13:1

                              "My “Black-Ops” history ensures that you will never know about the missions I accepted in my younger days, and Vietnam still shudders when it hears the name of a an assasin so skillful and deadly, he is remembered decades later. " G-45

                              Comment

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