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  • #76
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    We did the Corbon +P and +P+ gimmick too... It compensated for the fact that we were only allowed to carry .38 Specials.

    Who has you carrying a wheel gun with an M4?
    It just depends on the site i work, we have a Nuke power plant down towards the coast which requires that you be armed to the teeth...i happen to prefer the wheel gun to an automatic (don't kill me please). You cant take a revolver out of battery, think about that....
    Be Professional And Courteous, But Never Forget The Next Person You Meet You May Have To Kill.

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    • #77
      My problems with the wheel gun as a primary weapon:

      - You usually get .38 Special, and .38 Special only. Other calibers are usually not authorized by state licensing bodies.
      - You have six rounds. If you have multiple targets to engage, or you cannot engage the target in vital areas six times, you are out of ammo until you reload.
      - It is heavy. Worse than 1911 heavy.
      - It is huge. Worse than 1911 huge.
      - It has high recoil potential. Makes it harder to train with, and harder to control the sharp recoil.

      As a secondary weapon, its great. It never jams, never goes out of battery, etc. As a primary weapon, something that's less recoil, better ballistic performance (without overpenetration and with a larger dynamic wound cavity), and holds more ammunition (Not everyone is going to hit the target's 1 inch square. Especially since even with law enforcement, they hit only 6 times out of 10 according to an NIJ study) is better to me.
      Some Kind of Commando Leader

      "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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      • #78
        Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
        Its not a money pit (AR platform), and the Mini-14 is a good weapon system. Although... If we went non-AR, I'd want a M1 SOCOM.
        Due to the price differance if I were to go to the SOCOM I would go to the M1A SOCOM 16. The SOCOM2 doesn't seem to have enough extras to warrent an increace of about $1000. True it has a niftry Picanny forearm but that doesn't cost a Grand.

        Also think about the AK-47 line. 7.62x51mm isn't as available as it once was whereas 7.62x69mm is everywhere you don't want to be. Spare mags are easy to come by and inexpensive.

        As to the Mini-14...a friend of mine has one for sell I have been thinking about. The biggest problems I have heard are price of the mags, NOT taking M-16 mags (pins in rear of mag well) and slowing reloads, some critical replacement parts are not available to the general public. On the other hand others claim they have no problems at all.

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        • #79
          AK's are great weapons. Reliable, manufactured the world over (If you've fought a foreign adversary in the past 50 years, you were probally being shot at with an AK!)

          The only problem with the AK platform is that the media and other venues (Counterstrike, anyone?) have ingrained in past and present generations that AK == Bad Guy. PR nightmere right there if you don't handle it correctly.

          As to the SOCOM II... Cheaper than Dirt. Rails. 20-40 bucks. Seriously. That huge rail platform makes it look like it'd be hard to get a good grip on the rifle, anyway.
          Some Kind of Commando Leader

          "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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          • #80
            Originally posted by ACP01
            Also think about the AK-47 line. 7.62x51mm isn't as available as it once was whereas 7.62x69mm is everywhere you don't want to be.

            In Wisconsin, your weapon choice shows your "intent" to the court if you have to shoot someone.

            Example: If you shoot someone with a .45, you can face a homicide charge because a .45 is a "killing" caliber. If you shoot someone with a 9mm, chances are you will not face any charges because the 9mm is a "wounding" caliber. A prosacutor can, and often will say that because you used a larger, killing caliber, you intended on killing someone while if you use a smaller wounding caliber, such as the 9mm, it shows you did not intend on killing someone when & if you are forced to shoot someone.

            The AK is a bad choice because it is a "killing" caliber. The AR15 uses a 5.56mm "wounding" caliber and a good defense attorney will use these facts in a courtroom.

            Wounding calibers such as the 9mm wins in court.
            "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

            ~~George Orwell.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Special Investigator
              In Wisconsin, your weapon choice shows your "intent" to the court if you have to shoot someone.

              Example: If you shoot someone with a .45, you can face a homicide charge because a .45 is a "killing" caliber. If you shoot someone with a 9mm, chances are you will not face any charges because the 9mm is a "wounding" caliber. A prosacutor can, and often will say that because you used a larger, killing caliber, you intended on killing someone while if you use a smaller wounding caliber, such as the 9mm, it shows you did not intend on killing someone when & if you are forced to shoot someone.

              The AK is a bad choice because it is a "killing" caliber. The AR15 uses a 5.56mm "wounding" caliber and a good defense attorney will use these facts in a courtroom.

              Wounding calibers such as the 9mm wins in court.
              Please direct me to a site or some sort of documentation that defines a 9mm as a "wounding caliber". There is no such thing in LE/Security as "shooting to wound". If I had a nickel for everytime someone said, "why don't you just shoot them in the knee?"... I would be wealthy man. Fact is, a 9mm is no less dangerous than a 45 cal. Both leave holes in the body, and last time I checked... any size hole is bad. If you have reached the point where you have no other option than to draw your weapon and fire, odds are it's for a darn good reason. At that point, I would be far more concerned with neutralizing the threat than I would be with "wounding" them. If they are trying to take my life or someone elses, then I react in kind.
              Last edited by davis002; 12-12-2006, 08:43 PM.
              "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

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              • #82
                I believe that deadly force is just that...deadly force. There are no

                varying degrees of deadly force depending on what caliber was used.
                "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."
                - Thomas Jefferson

                “Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence.”
                — Vince Lombardi

                "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

                IX. Strive to attain professional competence.

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                • #83
                  The only wounding rounds that I am aware of are rubber and beanbag.

                  http://mysteekmeg.buzznet.com/user/video/play/71525/

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by T202
                    The only wounding rounds that I am aware of are rubber and beanbag.

                    http://mysteekmeg.buzznet.com/user/video/play/71525/
                    These rounds are also deadly in some situations. Just ask the IDF.
                    They have had a lot of bad press because those shot with them at close range have died.

                    As far as one round being a "wounding" and another a lethal.....I guess most of the militaries in the world are using the 9mm because it is PC?

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                    • #85
                      Back in the mid 90's I went through a Non-Lethal Weapons and Tactics class with the Marine Corps. We shot a bunch of those rubber bullets at cardboard targets and they ripped the targets apart! Never seen their effect on the human body first hand but I dont think it would be a good thing up close.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by GCMC Security
                        Back in the mid 90's I went through a Non-Lethal Weapons and Tactics class with the Marine Corps. We shot a bunch of those rubber bullets at cardboard targets and they ripped the targets apart! Never seen their effect on the human body first hand but I dont think it would be a good thing up close.
                        Non-lethal weapons in the USMC? Doesn't sound like the Marine Corps I was in.
                        Retail Security Consultant / Expert Witness
                        Co-Author - Effective Security Management 6th Edition

                        Contributor to Retail Crime, Security and Loss Prevention: An Encyclopedic Reference

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Security Consultant
                          Non-lethal weapons in the USMC? Doesn't sound like the Marine Corps I was in.
                          NATICK gives Marines fun toys to play with these days as part of their humanitarian peacekeeping role.

                          Marines have also tried out "sticky foam," microwave guns, laser dazzler weapons, and who knows what else...
                          Some Kind of Commando Leader

                          "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by davis002
                            Please direct me to a site or some sort of documentation that defines a 9mm as a "wounding caliber". There is no such thing in LE/Security as "shooting to wound". If I had a nickel for everytime someone said, "why don't you just shoot them in the knee?"... I would be wealthy man. Fact is, a 9mm is no less dangerous than a 45 cal. Both leave holes in the body, and last time I checked... any size hole is bad. If you have reached the point where you have no other option than to draw your weapon and fire, odds are it's for a darn good reason. At that point, I would be far more concerned with neutralizing the threat than I would be with "wounding" them. If they are trying to take my life or someone elses, then I react in kind.
                            Fact is the 9mm is not as fatal as a .45! The prisons are full of gangbangers who survived 9mm wounds. You will not find many who survived a .45 gunshot. Do some research.

                            Most medium pistol calibers such as .38, 9mm, 5.56mm are concidered "wounding" calibers, plain and simple. Factors to be concidered are cavitation, penetration and caliber. Shot placement is another factor.

                            In the eyes of most courts, especialy here in Wisconsin, the 9mm & 5.56mm calibers are looked at as a wounding caliber. I'll give an example.....

                            A couple of years ago a security guard, armed with a .45, shoot and killed someone. Because he went armed with a .45 caliber, he was charged with intentional homicide. The prosacutor claimed that because he went armed with a .45 caliber, which is concidered a killing caliber, he intended on killing whomever he shot using that caliber. In the end he was found guilty.

                            Meanwhile, everyone I know who shot and killed someone using a 9mm caliber and was charged, was found not guilty or no charges were brought against them BECAUSE a the 9mm is not concidered a "killing caliber" and going armed with a 9mm, the court will look at it and say because they used a smaller caliber such as a 9mm there intention was not to kill, even though the shot was fatal.

                            Botton line....9mm wins in court!

                            Note: The 5.56mm was specificaly designed as a "wounding caliber".
                            "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

                            ~~George Orwell.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Special Investigator
                              Fact is the 9mm is not as fatal as a .45!
                              And yet the 9mm round has killed more people than any other round, outside of military service.

                              Originally posted by Special Investigator
                              In the eyes of most courts, especialy here in Wisconsin, the 9mm & 5.56mm calibers are looked at as a wounding caliber.
                              Further proof that WI needs to SERIOUSLY review their laws. I've never heard of different calibers being referred to as more or less fatal, only having varying rates of "stopping power." If you want to talk about what types of rounds are more/less fatal, you need to look at the jacketing. FMJ rounds are normally considered "wounding" rounds, because they tend to pass straight through the target, thereby causing less internal damage than a JHP round that shreds and bounces all over inside. Most of the modern "PC" militaries uses FMJ rounds for this reason. And yet every LEO I've met, (and every armed SO for that matter) carries JHP rounds BECAUSE of that higher ability to stop the threat.

                              Bottom line: (Anyone who's been in LE work knows this) Make sure that you (and your fellow Officers) go home at the end of your shift.

                              Interesting note: In this neck of the woods, there is no requirement to carry a certain caliber for your qualifications. 9mm, 40, 45.. Doesn't matter. You either qualify for armed work, or you don't. Your weapon choice is up to you. Only exception is that some areas require additional certs before an SO can use a shotgun/longgun on duty.
                              Corbier's Commandos - "Stickin it to the ninjas!"
                              Originally posted by ValleyOne
                              BANG, next thing you know Bob's your Uncle and this Sgt is seemingly out on his a$$.
                              Shoulda called in sick.
                              Be safe!

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                                NATICK gives Marines fun toys to play with these days as part of their humanitarian peacekeeping role.

                                Marines have also tried out "sticky foam," microwave guns, laser dazzler weapons, and who knows what else...
                                Give me an M79 grenade launcher any time, "guns up". "Sticky foam"....is that napalm?
                                Retail Security Consultant / Expert Witness
                                Co-Author - Effective Security Management 6th Edition

                                Contributor to Retail Crime, Security and Loss Prevention: An Encyclopedic Reference

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