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  • #16
    Originally posted by histfan71
    I'm glad to hear that Biola is going armed. I have always been of the opinion that if a college campus has live-in students, i.e. dorms, then the campus security or police should be armed.

    I worked for a small college police department in Long Beach and we had about 400 students who lived in our dorms, but we were unarmed, even though we were sworn police.

    I understand that you used to work closely with Azusa Pacific University Campus Safety. Is that still the case?
    All College and university police should be armed whether or not they area a residential campus or not. Such officers confront people from all walks of life, not just students. Furthermore, alot of students are no angles either.
    I believe I speak for everyone here sir, when I say, to Hell with our orders.
    -Lieutenant Commander Data
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    • #17
      Originally posted by Taser
      In the M Series, Taser makes an M18, M18L, and M26. They are all exactly the same except for a few differences. The M18 does not have a laser sight, the M18L and M26 do. The M18's deliver 18 pulses of electricity per second, while the M26 delivers 26 pulses per second. They are all 50,000 volts, but the M18's ampage or something is lower, making them less dangerous. And as you mentioned, the 15 ft. vs 25 ft. cartridges.

      As for data ports, I can't speak for the M18, by my M18L does indeed have one. Whether or not it works, I have no idea. But there is definitely a port on the rear of the unit that allows you to plug something in, about the size of an ethernet cord jack.

      But they do all perform exactly the same. You flip the safety off and press the trigger. I just can't imagine mistaking one for a Glock, both in weight, feel, sight, trigger, the fact that it HAS a safety, everything.
      Neither could I. But, for some reason, its happened multiple times. I think this is why they made the M series stickers, why they made bright yellow ones, etc. There was a training bulletin that the officer's agency "ignored" stating that Tasers should be worn off-side, due to the problem of sympathetic draw reflex producing a handgun deployment instead of a taser deployment.
      Some Kind of Commando Leader

      "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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      • #18
        Originally posted by knotquiteawake
        For a long time the only authorized weapons for Campus Security here was your ASP and your Pepper Foam.

        How many of you security guards are armed? How did it feel if you were around for a switch from unarmed to armed (or switching from a unarmed job to an armed job). Also, the Tazer, useful or never used?
        thanks
        It does my heart good to know that a security department has recognized the threat, developed a plan to eliminate or reduce the threat, and begun to implement procedures to support the plan. That's what you call common sense in action.

        knotquiteawake, you may have noticed, or will notice that many of us in these forums are Armed Only (that is, we refuse to work unarmed) and we take that duty seriously with training, sharing tactics, and passing on lessons learned. It may be valid to admit there is a definite dividing line between unarmed types, and us gun-nuts. Be that is it may, we're all here to protect others.

        Your immersion into Armed work should start with basic firearms safety, basic firearms tactics, and then as you progress, advanced firearms tactics. Programs like NRA fist-steps is a good place to start.

        Do not solely rely on your employer to train and equip you adequately. Most of the time, S/O's are looking into their own pockets in order to get the best training. If training is one component of your own survival, why not spend a few bucks?

        The duty weapon you've mentioned, Beretta 9 mm, has many points of argument for and against (I carried one for five years, I could tell you some stories.) No matter what your opinion of that weapon is: learn it, love it, live it. Make the weapon as familiar to you as your own thumb.

        Safety, Training, and your self-evaluation of your own ability to move towards danger instead of against it. Welcome to the west!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by jimmyhat
          It does my heart good to know that a security department has recognized the threat, developed a plan to eliminate or reduce the threat, and begun to implement procedures to support the plan. That's what you call common sense in action.

          Do not solely rely on your employer to train and equip you adequately. Most of the time, S/O's are looking into their own pockets in order to get the best training. If training is one component of your own survival, why not spend a few bucks?

          The duty weapon you've mentioned, Beretta 9 mm, has many points of argument for and against (I carried one for five years, I could tell you some stories.) No matter what your opinion of that weapon is: learn it, love it, live it. Make the weapon as familiar to you as your own thumb.

          Thanks! I've been friends and lived in the same house as two of the current officers, we all are of the same mind to practice and train outside of the department's scope of training as well.

          As far as the 9mm Beretta, well, the only two guns i've ever handled was a glock (i think it was a .40) and a USP. So i don't know what a 9mm feels like, but i we keep joking about how "there's no stopping power in a 9mm." Sure its still a gun and kills people, but i don't want to have to empty a clip to stop someone.

          My friends and i were considering purchasing our own guns, regardless of the departments policy on carrying a personal firearm while on duty, although it would be nice to carry something bigger while on duty its not a huge deal because i don't expect to have to fire my gun often or ever.


          Which brings me to another question:
          It looks like that once armed the department policy is going to be very tight on the firearms (don't know about the tazer). Basically if the gun leaves the holster there will be lots of paperwork and an inquiry by the supervisors.
          You who are armed, is it like that for you? Where do the mountains of paperwork start when you are on duty (drawing the gun? pointing the gun? of course firing the gun).

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          • #20
            I would definately be ready for a lot of paperwork. You may end up needing to justify anything and everything you have done. Why did you draw your gun? Did you see them as a threat? What was so threatening about them? Was there any other, lesser force, methods you could have used? Had you exhausted EVERY other idea possible? What would have likely happened if you hadn't drawn your gun? What made you think that drawing your weapon would decrease the threat? How would you have handled the situation without a gun?

            These are only a few of a plethora of questions that may come across your desk at only the slight tug of your firearm from its holster. Remember this, if you drew a gun on me... it doesnt matter if I was smashing out car windows and killing the babies inside. We're going to court and I am going to have the best lawyer I can afford, whose soul purpose in life is to make peace,police,and security officers look like retards in a courtroom, no matter how justified they were.
            "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
            "The Curve" 1998

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            • #21
              Originally posted by jimmyhat
              W.L is right, that weapon does not have to leave it's holster in order for someone to feel threatened enough to cry "brandishing."

              A lot of S/O's have the habit of resting their gun hand in close proximity to their weapon (I'm not going to argue for or against that tactic at this time.) So, be prepared for the paperwork and court date if you even go near that peace-maker with your grubby-lil'-mitts.

              Early in your training, knotquiteawake, you'll hear a lot about never pulling your weapon unless you intend to destroy the target in front of you. I know the lesson well, and I certainly agree with that philosophy on it's merit. However, with thirteen years in the business I can tell you there are very few suspicious vehicles I approach, after sunset, with my hands in my pockets. Your survival instincts, tolerance for paperwork, and ability to accurately justify your actions in court will come with time and practice.

              From your original question, yes there is much paperwork and justification to be done. That is a good thing. It helps keep the dummy's out of the game. Not all of em' but certainly some. One less dummy with a gun is one more safer citizen.
              I remember that training, JimmyHat. And I remember the second the first shotgun blast went off outside the office I was standing in, it went out the window and my weapon was magically traversing firing arcs on the way out the front door - since the front door of the office was a choke/ambush point.

              As long as you can justify and articulate why your doing what your doing, and its legally defensible, your good. But till your to that point, always err on the side of caution till your safety is genuinely threatened.

              I've heard cops say stuff about learning the "right" amount of force. Since they do the liablity-important / people-friendly training now days, a lot of cops wonder "what's a good amount of force?"

              ASP against a baseball bat comes to mind.
              Some Kind of Commando Leader

              "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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              • #22
                Whose decision was it to carry 9mm? The university or the chief?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by knotquiteawake
                  My friends and i were considering purchasing our own guns, regardless of the departments policy on carrying a personal firearm while on duty, although it would be nice to carry something bigger while on duty its not a huge deal because i don't expect to have to fire my gun often or ever.
                  You have to obey your department's policy. If the department will only allow you to carry a university-issued gun on duty then you must comply.

                  I have a friend who works for the Veteran's Affairs Police and their issued guns are Beretta 92-F's. They also have a policy that only issued guns can be carried on duty, but the officers can carry whatever they want off-duty.

                  My friend carries a .45 ACP off-duty as well as to and from work. When he arrives at work he must store his off-duty gun in the armory.

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                  • #24
                    I hate VA Police's gun policy. I was talking to one of them, and he was telling me that they cannot take their guns home, they cannot be in possession of their personal firearm when in uniform (so no backup gun), if they carry their own gun to and from work, they must report directly to the locker-room on the way in and directly off the campus when off duty. No stopping even to assist in LE/Security duties. Things definately need to change with that agency IMO.
                    "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
                    "The Curve" 1998

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by six.
                      I believe I speak for everyone here sir, when I say, to Hell with our orders.
                      -Lieutenant Commander Data
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Wackenhut Lawson
                        I hate VA Police's gun policy. I was talking to one of them, and he was telling me that they cannot take their guns home, they cannot be in possession of their personal firearm when in uniform (so no backup gun), if they carry their own gun to and from work, they must report directly to the locker-room on the way in and directly off the campus when off duty. No stopping even to assist in LE/Security duties. Things definately need to change with that agency IMO.
                        It's gotten a little bit better. My friend told me that prior to 9/11, at his hospital anyway, they had no off-duty status. They had to hand in their badges and credentials along with their guns at the end of their shift.

                        The chief's justification for this was that since his officers had no authority off-duty why would they need their badges and credentials when not at work?

                        After 9/11 all that changed. They got 24/7 peace officer status and they are covered under HR-218.

                        I also understand that the Federal Reserve Bank Police are in a similar boat. Each district has their own policies. Some districts give the FRB cops 24/7 status and off-duty carry and some do not. I do not know which districts do not, but I would love to find out, since I have an application in with them.

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                        • #27
                          i'm pretty sure it was the Chief's decision for the 9mm. The reasoning i was lead to understand is that our clips would be interchangeable with LA County's (their standard issue is the beretta 9mm, but most carry their own personal weapon).
                          So i guess he wanted it so we would both have the same clips... you know... like if the Sheriff and I get into a prolonged gun fight against a terrorist group. I could be all like "I'm OUT!!!" and the Sheriff would throw me another clip and be like "thats my last one, make it count." or something like that.... (i'm being sarcastic...)

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by knotquiteawake
                            The reasoning i was lead to understand is that our clips would be interchangeable with LA County's (their standard issue is the beretta 9mm, but most carry their own personal weapon).
                            If most deputies carry their own personal gun having a Beretta will not do you any good.

                            LAPD is the same way. They still issue the Beretta 92-F but officers can privately purchase their own 9mm, .40 Cal, or .45 ACP. The vast majority of LAPD officers I still keep in touch with have bought Kimber .45's. The only real downside to carrying their own weapons is that the individual officer is required to purchase his own ammo, both for duty and for range qualifications. The last I knew LAPD would not allow any polymer-framed guns, so no Glocks or H&K USPs, but this requirement may have been lifted when Bratton took office.

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                            • #29
                              I refuse to work unarmed, and will not take an unarmed post. If it is an especially good post I will carry a concealed weapon on my AL CCW. It is allowed.

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                              • #30
                                concealed weapons permits are nearly impossibly to attain in California.

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