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  • #16
    Originally posted by Mr. Security
    Saying that we "all" are improperly trained in the use of impact weapons is an over-generalization statement, wouldn't you agree?



    Perhaps. Nevertheless, as Tennsix alluded to, it really is up to the state to decide that issue. In his state, it's not a problem. In mine, it can be. Remember, s/o's in general have no more authority than a private citizen. Any s/o who fails to use caution when using takedown methods is bound to cross the line sooner rather than later. Also, some laws regarding the use of force can be somewhat ambiguous and therefore subject to interpretation. That can mean an arrest and a costly defense to prove that the officer used proper force. The officer may very well win in court, but the state isn't going to p/u the cost of his/her defense. That's enough to make anyone think twice before acting. We have good reason to fear judicial action based on past cases.
    Yes, you are right, I agree on both counts, sorry if my opinion come out too strong

    It is that I saw some videos taking by civilians that shows several Police Officers using repeated blows on a man that was down in his knees face down.
    It is a shame that such things happen and give a bad name to the others honest hard working normal human, cops.

    It it was unnecessary as proper training will have shown those "police officers" how to subdue a suspect without using excessive force.

    black bear
    BUILDER OF THE BOREALIS FLASHLIGHT
    www.BlackBearFlashlights.com

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by black bear
      Yes, you are right, I agree on both counts, sorry if my opinion come out too strong

      It is that I saw some videos taking by civilians that shows several Police Officers using repeated blows on a man that was down in his knees face down.
      It is a shame that such things happen and give a bad name to the others honest hard working normal human, cops.

      It it was unnecessary as proper training will have shown those "police officers" how to subdue a suspect without using excessive force.

      black bear
      Years ago that type behavior was named "the pack instinct." Officers questioned later had no recollection of what they had done.
      Despicable yes, tolerated no, understandable, yes. I never fault the individual policeman, I am severely critical of poor or no supervision. Supervisors must be held accountable for the actions of their subordinates.
      Enjoy the day,
      Bill
      Last edited by Bill Warnock; 03-25-2006, 06:00 PM. Reason: use of wrong word

      Comment


      • #18
        You realize, black bear, that in most US juristictions, a private citizen (NOT a police officer) cannot add that bezel to a mag-lite?

        Here's the deal.

        Surefire is a manufacturer that sells a flashlight with a curnelated bezel. However you spell that word, its not one I use that often. You are selling an after-market addition to a Mag Insturments Flashlight.

        Think of it like this. If you buy a car with heavily tinted windows, the law says that "if it came from the factory, its ok" in most states. This is because Ford/Chevy won't sell cars that violate the tinting law.

        If you go out and buy a tinting kit, and put 99% tint on your car windows, a police officer will write you a ticket, and may impound your car as its undrivable.

        You took effort in buying an item, importing it into the country, removing your stock Maglight bezel, and replacing it with another.

        People aren't afraid of the courts. They're afraid of the police officer who will arrest you for using that weapon, sooner or later, because its no longer considered a flashlight. You've modified it.

        A police officer can use any level of force that is reasonable in his arrest. A private citizen cannot. Unless your afraid for your life, in which case you can use any level of force - including deadly force, you can only use the level of force that your state allows. Some get 'reasonable,' some get 'one level higher.'

        As far as striking a suspect in the knee caps with a flashlight or a nightstick, in America, that is unacceptable unless you are trying to "kill" a man. That is "great bodily injury," as you could destroy the joint and render the man a cripple for life. Batons, and even defensive flashlights, are aimed at muscle groups and nerve clusters, not joints.

        We have to deal with something called Section 1983 of the Civil Rights Act. If you use excessive force under color of law, you can:

        Go to federal prison for a very long time.
        Lose everything you own in the civil suit against you. These things settle for millions of dollars.
        Lose anything left as punitive damages in the criminal trial against you. Millions of dollars in fines are assessed.
        Lose your civil rights due to being a federal felon.

        Now, the bezel looks nice, and may be useful in rescue operations, but the American law enforcer, public or private, is going to have a hard time getting something like that approved. Surefire, on one hand, is a manufacturer who markets their small flashlights to the public as a flashlight. They plainly say, "This is a last ditch impact weapon, for when you have no other weapon." In other words, they're covering their ass.

        They market the larger flashlights to special forces and SWAT teams, who usually can use lethal force anyway in the situations they would strike someone with that flashlight - its mounted to the end of a rifle.
        Some Kind of Commando Leader

        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

        Comment


        • #19
          Let me make myself more clear on this matter. Your flashlight looks well built and solid. However as I mentioned the credenzel and the 'skull crusher' or whatever you call them are what I am considering junk. I don't care how well built they are or how solid if I can't have one or its of no use to me then I consider it junk. Just like in my eyes a ferarri is junk, why? Because I can't drive a car 200mph why buy one even though it looks nice. I have been thinking about this for sometime and am also wondering if you are not violating US patent laws by making these modifications. I don't know much about the patent laws but might be worth looking into. As has been mentioned several times, the government here in the US takes a dim view over items such as your flashlight. The fact you mentioned that my training is bad or crappy is ignorant on your part. We go through extensive training in all the use of force we have available to us. We aren't allowed on the street until we can perform our use of force techniqes in our sleep. As N.A. Crobrier mentioned, a joint strike is out of the question. If you are training people to strike the knees then you my friend better update your curriculum. I understand your foreign but do not come over here and start bashing on our training. As I see it, your a nobody trying to sell a weapon without taking the time to research. It is obvious to me that you did not research US patent laws, or get permission from Maglight to use / modify their product. It is also very clear to me that you did not bother to do market research to determine if your product would be liked here in the US or did you even bother to research the legal aspect of it. Knowing that, I realize that my opinon is squat on here but anyone who will listen to me I will personally tell them to not buy your product or to do business with you. You sound like you got some great ideas in your head, but I think you need to learn how to properly do business in the US. Remember this is my opinion and only my opinion.

          Comment


          • #20
            Michael Ledgerwood,
            Don't you know that when you buy an item and it become your property you can do all the modifications you want?

            You never hear of .45 pistols been modified by pistol smiths with extended safeties, beaver tail grip safeties, extended ejectors, modified bushing etc.?

            Did you ever see a modified car?

            Is there any law that prevents you from selling your property?

            Where did you see legislation against crenellated bezels?

            As for the training anybody that can not hit blinded men in the knee should get out of this business.

            Black bear
            BUILDER OF THE BOREALIS FLASHLIGHT
            www.BlackBearFlashlights.com

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by black bear
              Michael Ledgerwood,
              Don't you know that when you buy an item and it become your property you can do all the modifications you want?

              You never hear of .45 pistols been modified by pistol smiths with extended safeties, beaver tail grip safeties, extended ejectors, modified bushing etc.?

              Did you ever see a modified car?

              Is there any law that prevents you from selling your property?

              Where did you see legislation against crenellated bezels?

              As for the training anybody that can not hit blinded men in the knee should get out of this business.

              Black bear
              Again blackbear you seem to be missing the point so I will take this step by step for you, try to follow along. When you buy an item you are allowed to modify it within the law. Likewise you are allowed to sell said item. You are not however allowed to market a product as your own by using another companies product. You are infact making a profit off of the Maglight. You are also using a protion of their name Mag951. I am not nor do I claim to be a patent attorney. Maybe I'm wrong but thats not my point. Now legislation against credentialed bezels. Where shall I begin. For starters there is Federal Law, State Statute, Municipal Code all of which may ban items such as yours. Now I will attempt to explain the training to you, though you seem to not have the capacity to understand. You see, here in the USA we have what are called civil rights. These are what we fought the British for. Now, you are sitting there telling me that you will blind a subject and then hit them in the knee. First off you just admitted to commiting a crime. Blinding a subject constitutes self defense. If said subject is blind and you take it a step further and strike said subject you and ONLY YOU will be arrested for the crime of assault 1st degree which is a class A felony in the state of Washington. You will be tried, convicted and sued why? Because you exceeded the amount of force necessary to defend yourself. This would be akin to you shooting someone after you pepper sprayed them. Now I carry actual certification in the use of strike / impact weapons. This includes the ASP baton as well as the PR-24 side handle baton. I am also trained in the use of unarmed defensive tactics as well as joint manipulation. In short, what this means is that I have a diploma sitting on my wall stating that I am a certified reserve police officer in the State of Washington. Your flashlight would be illegal in several places throughout the country. Now, the flashlight itself is great. I personally love the brightness, i own a 2 million candlepower spotlight myself. Adding your so called options are not acceptable in this state or this country. Areas of this country that would accept it would hold the user liable. You seem to be very ignorant and I think may be trying to run a scam. Maglight, Streamlight, and Surefire have all expiermented with defesive flashlights. There is a reason that you only see bezels on smaller polymer flashlight - putting them on anything larger would not be accepted. Likewise, it is complete overkill. You mentioned in a previous post that you train people to strike kneecaps and that a person should not get close enough to get their light taken away. I hate to break this to you but if you are close enough to be striking them then you are close enough for them to take the light away. You may say you have 38 years expierience but I don't buy it one bit. You to me sound like a total fraud. If you tried to tell me to do a knee strike I would laugh in your face then walk out of your class. You forget Blackbear, this is the US, land of the free and lawsuit happy. Do me a favor stop peddling a product that has no use in this coutry. If you want to sell your light then take off the options, otherwise byebye.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by black bear
                ...As for the training anybody that can not hit blinded men in the knee should get out of this business.

                Black bear
                That would be 90% of sworn police officers, and 95% of security officers in this country.

                It's not that they "can't," its that its considered excessive force by American law.
                Some Kind of Commando Leader

                "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                Comment


                • #23
                  You seem to be obsessed with trying to bait me into a internet duel with you by ofending me and trying trash my thread

                  I will not respond to you anymore, as I don't see any profit on educate you on your wrong views.
                  Stay out of my thread.
                  bye.
                  BUILDER OF THE BOREALIS FLASHLIGHT
                  www.BlackBearFlashlights.com

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by black bear
                    You seem to be obsessed with trying to bait me into a internet duel with you by ofending me and trying trash my thread

                    I will not respond to you anymore, as I don't see any profit on educate you on your wrong views.
                    Stay out of my thread.
                    bye.
                    Which one?

                    I'm simply telling you the truth. In America, if a sworn police officer or a non-sworn security guard kneecaps someone with a flashlight, they had best be in fear for their life, or they're eventually being sued for excessive force.

                    Our range of target restrictions are nearly identical, we can only aim for muscle groups, nerve clusters, or other soft tissue targets. Hard bone/joint strikes are considered "Level Red," or lethal force, under the Monadnock (PR-24 maker) course, and the ASP course teaches do not strike the joints, and never strike above the shoulders (At the head,) instead transition to firearm and shoot the threat.

                    I don't know how PCs and SCs in the UK are trained, but in America: If your not in fear for your life from deadly force, you can't hit joints. If you are, you can do anything up to shooting them - pushing them off a tall building - breaking bones - or using your CASCO or Monadnock expandable baton like a baseball bat upside someone's head.
                    Some Kind of Commando Leader

                    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by black bear
                      You seem to be obsessed with trying to bait me into a internet duel with you by ofending me and trying trash my thread

                      I will not respond to you anymore, as I don't see any profit on educate you on your wrong views.
                      Stay out of my thread.
                      bye.
                      Mr. Blackbear,
                      First, allow me to educate you in the ways of this website. This is NOT your thread. Once you post a thread any registered member may make a response. Second, I am not obsessed with dueling with you. You have made some very wrong statements and I as well as everyone else have tried to correct you. You may very well have a good product, unfortunately it has no place here in America. Second, I have been offering you my opinions which are just that my opinions. You have not given me any evidence to support you. You posted 3 threads on Officer.com of which I am a memeber, and even on that site you aren't getting responses. What is it going to take for you to realize that you need to make some changes on your product. Allow me to make some suggestions. First, drop the price. Here in the US you can buy a multimillion candlepower spotlight for less that $50.00. No need to charge over $200.00. Second, if you are a legitamate business then post your company name and business license number so people can verify you. Noone will give you over $200.00 when no one knows you. Third, stop getting so defensive when people offer you critisizm (sp?). We are not idiots on this website. We know what we would like to see and what is allowed. Forth, do market research. Talk to police officers and security officers, find out what they want in a flashlight. You will find that most officers will want a combination of brightness, durability, and power. Fifth, make your OWN product. Do not modify an existing product. Modifications are good for testing and what not but when you actually go into production you need to have your own design and your own product. As it stands Mr. Blackbear I tend to stand by my original statements. Based on your attitude and your unwillingness to listen to not only me but others on this board who are telling you that your flashlight / weapon is a liability tends to presuade me to stand by my statements. If you are in fact legite and trying to improve exsisting products then I wish you luck and hope you learn from the people on this board - there are lots of good ideas here. You may think that I am a jerk but I infact have been trying to help you out by telling you what needs to change on your product to make it feasible here. I will not buy a product nor will I endorse one that creates liability for my fellow officers. Understand this Mr. Blackbear there are several jurisdictions in this country that regulate even pepperspray. Now I will not even say in a public forum why I think you are not legite. As I said this is my own opinion and if you care enough to know the reasons then you can PM me and I will be more than happy to tell you in private. With that said, rest asured Mr. Blackbear, I will in no way shape or form endorse or recommend your product. If you listen to me and others and make the changes and do the footwork you might have some happy customers. Keep in mind the goal of a business is to not sell a product that YOU think is want, but to sell a product that the CONSUMER wants. Without the CONSUMER you don't have business.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        It seems to me that is what the consumer wants as you can get three different sizes from TAD GEAR (even is one for the L1P)



                        Or you can get them from G&P for the Surefire's



                        Or you can get a TID (tactical Impact device) also for the Surefire's.




                        black bear
                        BUILDER OF THE BOREALIS FLASHLIGHT
                        www.BlackBearFlashlights.com

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Items received. Thank you very much!
                          Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            If we attach enough of those to our foreheads, will we turn into Borg?
                            "We appreciate all the hard work you've done, the dedicated hours you have worked, and the lives you have saved. However, since this is your third time being late to work, we are terminating your employment here."

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              GG&G is a police and military contractor. They also make systems for attaching the Gladius to the accessory rail of an M16 rifle.

                              You must remember that GG&G's primary market are users, who under federal or state law, can strike someone with a personal or weapon-mounted light and not get thrown into jail for it.

                              Would I attach a Tactical Impact Device to a Surefire weapon light on my short-barreled M4? Maybe. Would I be justified in striking someone with it? Yes, because I would be defending my life against them, after all, I'm pointing a deadly weapon at them.

                              The market your referencing is well established and sells primarly to law enforcement agencies and military organizations at the quartermaster level.

                              They are registered with Dunn and Bradstreet, in the Department of Defense CCR registry, post SIC numbers on all bid proposals, and have GSA contracts.

                              I believe Michael is right. For the candlepower enthusiast, I can see dropping 200 dollars US on a neat flashlight. But, for the law enforcement, military, or security professional, there are better things to spend that money on.

                              Black Bear seems to be stuck on lumen output and offensive potential of the bezel. Its perfectly acceptable for a flashlight enthusiast to kitbash together a neat flashlight that optputs an insane amount of lumens.

                              Look at Blackhawk. Does Blackhawk make flashlights? No. They contract out. But every flashlight carries the Blackhawk name, and you'll be hard pressed to find the real manufacturer (Insight, I believe) on the item. The Gladius, for example. Would you spend $249 USD on an upgraded AA Mini-Mag that puts out an insane amount of lumens and strobes? No, of course not, its a kit bash.

                              Yet we will drop $279.00 on a Gladius.
                              Last edited by N. A. Corbier; 03-30-2006, 08:51 PM.
                              Some Kind of Commando Leader

                              "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Blackbear, you will notice that one those products are marketed to police and military. You will also notice that the companies (surefire, etc.) make their own product - not modify an existing product to sell for an outragously high price. I don't have issues with you doing whatever it is your doing. My issue is when several of us, myself included, told you that the product is a potential liability you became very defensive. I also suggested to you to stop selling a modified product and to create your own. Again, this prompted a very defensive attitude from you. I am not going to sit here and argue with you. If you are a fraud and using another companies product as your own then you will get caught. If your a legitamite (sp?) business man then I suggest you open your ears (or in this case eyes) and listen to what your "customer" is telling you. If people are telling you your product is bad from a liability standpoint then you should be asking how you could reduce the liability. I will not even mention what I personally think of you blackbear. I will tell you that as long as you keep posting threads on here or Officer.com where you are selling another companies product as your own, I will be discoraging people from buying from you. I am all for people coming up with their own stuff, but selling a 'maglight' as your own product for an outragously inflated price is crazy. You may find that it pisses off the companie(s). Just my thoughts, which I know go ignored by you blackbear.

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