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  • Flashlights for self defense

    BUILDER OF THE BOREALIS FLASHLIGHT
    www.BlackBearFlashlights.com

  • #2
    In Canada the baseball bat would be legal. (Actually I have a hockey stick with the blade sawed off ). But everything else, OC, Tazers, stun guns etc are illegal. I also have a real protective dog.
    I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
    Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

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    • #3
      Caution

      Using heavy flashlights for self-defense can put you in prison if it's not a life-threatening situation with no way to retreat. I carry a 6 cell Mag-Lite for use as a LAST resort only. Otherwise, it's considered assault with a deadly weapon here.
      Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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      • #4
        I believe I speak for everyone here sir, when I say, to Hell with our orders.
        -Lieutenant Commander Data
        sigpic

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        • #5
          Whether it's perception or not, check your state law before using it as a "recognized impact weapon," or you may be explaining the concept to a jury.
          Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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          • #6
            I would not buy a flashlight like that for any reason. As mentioned a flashlight being used as a weapon would bring huge liability to you unless you were in extreme danger and had no other alternative. With that said if you had a regular flashlight (magcharger, etc.) and used it for defense you would be ok ASSUMING you were in jeopordy. Now when you start adding the options onto it such as the skull crusher you have effectively turned what was a flashlight into a weapon. Any attorney can say that by transforming your flashlight into a weapon your intent was to cause significant bodily injury rather than to defend yourself. In almost every jurisdiction you would be found liable for using that piece of junk. SureFire made a bezel that you described for their flashlights, however you will notice that they have it on their mini lights not full size beahemoths that pack some weight behind them. The SureFire bezel is designed to be used as a presure point device much the same way a Kubaton is used. Even if you were to strike an individual with the SureFire, the weight of the flashlight would not cause significant bodily injury. Remember, in a defensive situation it is not your intent to injure the perp, it is your intent to stop the aggressive act long enough to escape to safety. The bezel mounted on the front of your flashlight might be permisable (though I find it excessive personally) but the 'skull crusher' or whatever you called it is way to extreme. Case in point, when I was a police officer one of my officers got tackled and into a fight with a DV suspect. The suspect had ran into the backyard when it was pitch black and hid. My partner was tackled from behind and pinned down while the suspect start assalting him. My partner, unable to reach any of his other tools and fearing for his safety started striking the suspect in the head with his dept issued MagCharger. The suspect was severly injured as a result. That was with a standard flashlight, had he been using your light the suspect would have likely been killed in a situation that did not necessarily warrant deadly force. Any aluminum flashlight can be used as a defensive tool, there is no need for skull crushers or any other pieces of junk added to them.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Mr. Security
              Whether it's perception or not, check your state law before using it as a "recognized impact weapon," or you may be explaining the concept to a jury.
              Not a problem in my state, as long as the force continuum is observed.
              I believe I speak for everyone here sir, when I say, to Hell with our orders.
              -Lieutenant Commander Data
              sigpic

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Michael Ledgerwood
                I would not buy a flashlight like that for any reason. As mentioned a flashlight being used as a weapon would bring huge liability to you unless you were in extreme danger and had no other alternative. With that said if you had a regular flashlight (magcharger, etc.) and used it for defense you would be ok ASSUMING you were in jeopordy. Now when you start adding the options onto it such as the skull crusher you have effectively turned what was a flashlight into a weapon. Any attorney can say that by transforming your flashlight into a weapon your intent was to cause significant bodily injury rather than to defend yourself. In almost every jurisdiction you would be found liable for using that piece of junk. SureFire made a bezel that you described for their flashlights, however you will notice that they have it on their mini lights not full size beahemoths that pack some weight behind them. The SureFire bezel is designed to be used as a presure point device much the same way a Kubaton is used. Even if you were to strike an individual with the SureFire, the weight of the flashlight would not cause significant bodily injury. Remember, in a defensive situation it is not your intent to injure the perp, it is your intent to stop the aggressive act long enough to escape to safety. The bezel mounted on the front of your flashlight might be permisable (though I find it excessive personally) but the 'skull crusher' or whatever you called it is way to extreme. Case in point, when I was a police officer one of my officers got tackled and into a fight with a DV suspect. The suspect had ran into the backyard when it was pitch black and hid. My partner was tackled from behind and pinned down while the suspect start assalting him. My partner, unable to reach any of his other tools and fearing for his safety started striking the suspect in the head with his dept issued MagCharger. The suspect was severly injured as a result. That was with a standard flashlight, had he been using your light the suspect would have likely been killed in a situation that did not necessarily warrant deadly force. Any aluminum flashlight can be used as a defensive tool, there is no need for skull crushers or any other pieces of junk added to them.
                Well, your opinion come up too strong, specially when you call my bezel a piece of junk, as you are wrong that Surefire put them only in small lights as I have seem them in the Surefire M-6 and the M-4.

                They teach a course called the Power of Light based in part in defending with the crenellated bezels.

                Here is one



                And here also the Surefire M-3



                regards
                black bear
                Last edited by black bear; 03-23-2006, 09:07 PM.
                BUILDER OF THE BOREALIS FLASHLIGHT
                www.BlackBearFlashlights.com

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                • #9
                  My opinion is just that, my opinon. I call it junk because that is what it is. Lets break this down then. First, so you know where I am coming from - I am prior LE and am certified in the use of impact and strike weapons. Now you are claiming the flashlight is for self defense right? I am going to say this, if you have a multiple cell flashlight then why do you need a bezel or 'skull crusher'. A multiple cell flashlight is hefty enough to be used as a self defense tool by itself without the additions of your so called 'options'. Now, lets assume you have a Magcharger flashlight equiped with a bezel and 'skull crusher'. Lets say you are working contract security for an apartment complex carying your 'tricked out' Magcharger. You get into a fight with a juvenile and start losing. Fearing for your safety you grab your flashlight and use it to defend yourself. You strike the assailant with the 'skull crusher' fracturing his skull. You are not sworn law enforcement. As a result, you get called to testify. Flashlight is entered into evidence. Defense attorney asks why you felt the need to add a 'skull crusher' when the flashlight by itself is adequete enough to be used as a weapon. Result, your intent was to create a weapon to commit assault - you lose. Several police departments have lost cases where they used a plain flashlight as a weapon, and you want people to modify theres? Won't fly in most areas especially here in WA. Now, let me explain my thinking behind the bezel. A fullsize flashlight has a rather large head to accomadate the large reflector. If you had a bezel onto the end of it you are encouraging the use of the head portion of the flashlight as the weapon. This creates a grab potential for the suspect to grab the flashlight from you and use it against you, while leaving you with no way to retain the flashlight. Trust me, a suspect will not hesitate to take your flashlight away from you. I am not discoraging the use of flashlights as defensive tools, nor am I trying to insult you so please don't take it that way. I am just trying to discourage the use of 'modified' flashlights when its not necessary. in this day and age of greedy attorneys and courts / public that side with suspects a lot of times you don't need that liability added to your already stressful situation. Bezels and what not would be fine on smaller flashlights like the size of a stinger or a 'plastic' flashlight like Streamlight makes. Magchargers and other "fullsize" aluminum flashlight just don't need it. Its a waste of money, especially when you could by a dedicated impact weapon. Also, one other thought, modifying your flashlight might make it an impact weapon and therefore render it illegal in jurisdictions that control the sale and use of impact weapons by civilians. Again, I am not trying to start a war or anything, I am just merely giving my opinion as to why I think these are a bad idea.

                  Mike

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                  • #10
                    I'll note that the E2D flashlight is designed as a "last resort impact weapon," as in, you are only to use it when justified in lethal force because you are afraid for your life. Its called the Executive Type 2 (Defender), for a reason.
                    Some Kind of Commando Leader

                    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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                    • #11
                      With all due respect to everybody in this business, you all have had a lousy training in the way you fight with an impact weapon.

                      In my own country I have trained police officers thirty eight years ago to fight with flashlight or club.
                      First you don't get the suspect to close on you, second you don't try to club anybody over the head, shoulder or arms, the only blow should be directed to the knee cap.
                      The suspect will go down in excruciating pain unable to attack or retreat.
                      And that is all of it.

                      It is a non lethal blow, you should not end in court over it, and talking about courts I noticed that the courts have all running scared, you are more afraid of the courts than of the crooks you have to deal with every day.

                      The courts have it all wrong when they accept that you use a night stick, club etc. to subdue a subject but make a big outcry over the use of a flashlight!!!

                      It is a shame that they try to dissarm security people from the only tool that they have in many countries (Australia or UK included, most of my customers work securrity detail in Australia)

                      And to end, if the CRENELLATED BEZEL is a viable option for SUREFIRE LIGHTS and don't see why not for my MAG 951 lights!!!

                      black bear
                      BUILDER OF THE BOREALIS FLASHLIGHT
                      www.BlackBearFlashlights.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Michael Ledgerwood
                        .... In almost every jurisdiction you would be found liable for using that piece of junk....
                        His flashlight is certainly not a piece of junk. From what I can tell, it is a high quality, super-performing torch unlike anything else on the market. I can't afford it, but for those that can, I'm confident that they will be pleased.
                        Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by black bear
                          .....With all due respect to everybody in this business, you all have had a lousy training in the way you fight with an impact weapon.
                          Saying that we "all" are improperly trained in the use of impact weapons is an over-generalization statement, wouldn't you agree?

                          Originally posted by black bear
                          .....
                          The courts have it all wrong when they accept that you use a night stick, club etc. to subdue a subject but make a big outcry over the use of a flashlight!!!
                          Perhaps. Nevertheless, as Tennsix alluded to, it really is up to the state to decide that issue. In his state, it's not a problem. In mine, it can be. Remember, s/o's in general have no more authority than a private citizen. Any s/o who fails to use caution when using takedown methods is bound to cross the line sooner rather than later. Also, some laws regarding the use of force can be somewhat ambiguous and therefore subject to interpretation. That can mean an arrest and a costly defense to prove that the officer used proper force. The officer may very well win in court, but the state isn't going to p/u the cost of his/her defense. That's enough to make anyone think twice before acting. We have good reason to fear judicial action based on past cases.
                          Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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                          • #14
                            Unfortunately, the courts (and the public in general) will view a police action incident differently than a security action incident, even if the circumstances are similar. IN many ways, the police are afford more protection.
                            I believe I speak for everyone here sir, when I say, to Hell with our orders.
                            -Lieutenant Commander Data
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Tennsix
                              Unfortunately, the courts (and the public in general) will view a police action incident differently than a security action incident, even if the circumstances are similar. IN many ways, the police are afford more protection.
                              That's exactly the point. It makes a big difference.
                              Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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