A good/bad idea for a duty handgun?

[FiveSeven]

I've been working security for the past 10 years, last 3 years armed.
Currently I work for a company that pays pretty good and much more the average armed position in this area. Anyway, my company issues duty weapons and we all carry Glock 22's........

But if I were to quit/laid of/ or find part time armed position elsewhere I most likely would use my own handgun. I own Sig 220 (.45) and FN Five Seven in 5.7x28mm... I was wondering if it's a good idea to use Five Seven as a duty handgun, Sure the cartridge is very untraditional and not many people know of it but if I get approval from BSIS.... What do you think?

[davis002]

It's a nice firearm, but good luck finding anything for it. I don't know of any decent retention holsters for the five seven. In my opinion, carry whatever you are comfortable with, but if the only holster you can find is a cheap nylon level 0 retention holster I would advise against it. Our company is big on carrying at the bare minimum a level 2, although just about all of us utilize level 3 retention safariland raptor holsters. You can fill a football stadium with all the different holsters and accessories for a glock

[Guest]

But if I were to quit/laid of/ or find part time armed position elsewhere I most likely would use my own handgun. I own Sig 220 (.45) and FN Five Seven in 5.7x28mm... I was wondering if it's a good idea to use Five Seven as a duty handgun, Sure the cartridge is very untraditional and not many people know of it but if I get approval from BSIS.... What do you think?

You want a gun that will carry the biggest, heavyst, and slowest-traveling bullet you can. Right now that means the .45 ACP. The last time I checked (I admit it was several years ago) the .45 ACP had a 96% one-shot-stop rate.

If I remember right the .357 +P came in second place with a 91% one-shot-stop, but I could be wrong.

[Guest]

By the way, Sig is a fine weapon. It was my first choice for a duty weapon but it was out of my price range back in 1995.

Instead I bought a Smith & Wesson 4566 (.45 ACP) and have carried it as my duty weapon to this day. It has never let me down, shoots straight, and I like the magazine-trigger disconnect for officer safety reasons.

That feature saved the life of a Fountain Valley (So. Cal.) police officer once.

[FiveSeven]

I have level 2 holster from Blade Teck for it..... It's a very nice fit. The Gun also has magazine disconnect safety feature.

Like I mention, I also own Sig 220 in .45 (with night sights) but I just don't like the gun that much. I did carry it for my first armed position several years back. Who knows, if I get O.K from BSIS for Five Seven I might sell my Sig since I don't believe in many handguns..... I like to stick to as few as possible (except my current G22)

Do any of you use or seen security personnel with 1911 guns? I know that some companies do even authorize carrying them for obvious reason that I personally disagree with.

[N. A. Corbier]

I have not seen a private security officer carrying a 1911 style handgun.

As far as the FN, the only rounds your going to get for it are the sporting rounds, as the duty round is considered armor-piercing due to its extremely high velocity and polymer tip or some such nonsense.

The entire 5.7 system was designed to give the NATO office clerk or tanker something to have next to them in those cramped quarters, providing them protection on the battlefield that will defeat modern body armor. It wasn't really designed as a front-line combat rifle, or a front-line combat pistol. It is the non-US personification of "every man a rifleman," the axiom of the USMC.

I would look long and hard at over-penetration and non-stop shot issues before using the FN5.7. I think tactical teams use the FN P90 system because its a bull-pup carbine that can defeat body armor and yet not rapidly kill the suspect. You know, until you put 30 out of the 200 rounds in the weapon into the suspect.

[FiveSeven]

I have not seen a private security officer carrying a 1911 style handgun.

As far as the FN, the only rounds your going to get for it are the sporting rounds, as the duty round is considered armor-piercing due to its extremely high velocity and polymer tip or some such nonsense.

The entire 5.7 system was designed to give the NATO office clerk or tanker something to have next to them in those cramped quarters, providing them protection on the battlefield that will defeat modern body armor. It wasn't really designed as a front-line combat rifle, or a front-line combat pistol. It is the non-US personification of "every man a rifleman," the axiom of the USMC.

I would look long and hard at over-penetration and non-stop shot issues before using the FN5.7. I think tactical teams use the FN P90 system because its a bull-pup carbine that can defeat body armor and yet not rapidly kill the suspect. You know, until you put 30 out of the 200 rounds in the weapon into the suspect.

Not entirely true there.... I have 400 + of SS195LF rounds, they are hollow point, high velocity counterpart to SS190 amour piercing rounds. These (SS195LF) rounds will penetrate level 2+ vests and will tumble upon entering body...... The wound channel will be greater then "regular" ammo since the ammo tumbles from high velocity. The over-penetration in 5.7x28 is non-existent since once again bullet will not maintain straight path trough the target and even in level 3 defeating SS190 cartridge.
Not that I would plan into getting into any shooting but any ammo that is more capable the .45/9mm/.40 etc is a + in my book.... In the past I worked armed in special (non armored car) money transport and popular jewelry stores with lots $ on the line, it is in this field that bad guys are most likely to wear any even cheaper body armor then anywhere else.

I also have 500+ rounds of the round you describe with a polymer tip...It's SS196SR.... I would not use that ammo for duty at all.

[Guest]

Do any of you use or seen security personnel with 1911 guns? I know that some companies do even authorize carrying them for obvious reason that I personally disagree with.

Two officers I worked with at a patrol company 3-4 years ago carried 1911's. Coincidently, they both got fired for being too "badge heavy" and too much of a wanna-be.

[FiveSeven]

I'm not sure if their termination had anything related by them carrying 1911's. Maybe they were best friends who think alike.
But I've seen quite a few idiots who should not be carrying a firearm for a living.
There are companies that do not allow 1911's because them being single action and the sight of cocked hammer makes some uncomfortable but only the ignorant of course... It's even more safer firearm then the Glock.

[N. A. Corbier]

I've noticed that there's a big big trend towards dumbing the weapon down to the police and security officer. DAO is a good indication of this. "Is it single? Is it in double?"

Granted, there is a "speed" increase in DAO in that there is no safety to mess up. I perfer DA/SA(Decocker) or SA(Safety) to DAO in plastic guns, mainly because I jerk the pistol if its too light. Big hands. :|

If you can qualify with the 1911 without shooting yourself in the leg, or failing to deactivate the safety... Then your rated for that weapon.

[Bill Warnock]

I've noticed that there's a big big trend towards dumbing the weapon down to the police and security officer. DAO is a good indication of this. "Is it single? Is it in double?"

Granted, there is a "speed" increase in DAO in that there is no safety to mess up. I perfer DA/SA(Decocker) or SA(Safety) to DAO in plastic guns, mainly because I jerk the pistol if its too light. Big hands. :|

If you can qualify with the 1911 without shooting yourself in the leg, or failing to deactivate the safety... Then your rated for that weapon.

The 1911A1 is a fine war weapon, chambered when you enter a combat area. That weapon and others whose exclusive use if for war can be dangerous if dropped. A trigger safety is no substitute for a firing pin safety. Throw it over your shoulder and kick it with your heel and is will not discharge.
Of course, nothing, but nothing will ever compensate for operator head space.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[ACP01]

The 1911A1 is a fine war weapon, chambered when you enter a combat area. That weapon and others whose exclusive use if for war can be dangerous if dropped. A trigger safety is no substitute for a firing pin safety. Throw it over your shoulder and kick it with your heel and is will not discharge.
Of course, nothing, but nothing will ever compensate for operator head space.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

Hi Bill,
As you know most if not all the new 1911A1s are built with firing pin safeties as well as better feed and ejection designs than the old GIs as they are now called.

My carry gun a Magnum Research Baby Eaglein .45ACP has carry options.
I can carry it DA/SA with or without the safety engaged and I can also carry it Cocked and Locked condition 1.
Having trained with it I find the DA trigger travel is VERY and I mean very long as opposed to other DAs I have owned (Ruger P-90 for one) thus I usually carry it Condition One.
I can justify this by my military training as well as well as the way I train now as I can put more center hits faster with the single action from carry. Also in the settings I would probably have to deploy my weapon a miss would be devastating due to surroundings and circumstances.

I too like the idea of a decocker but the only firearm I have seen that allows me SA or DA option along with a decocker is the Taurus PT-945. The USP may have that option also but I do not know.

[Bill Warnock]

Hi Bill,
As you know most if not all the new 1911A1s are built with firing pin safeties as well as better feed and ejection designs than the old GIs as they are now called.

My carry gun a Magnum Research Baby Eaglein .45ACP has carry options.
I can carry it DA/SA with or without the safety engaged and I can also carry it Cocked and Locked condition 1.
Having trained with it I find the DA trigger travel is VERY and I mean very long as opposed to other DAs I have owned (Ruger P-90 for one) thus I usually carry it Condition One.
I can justify this by my military training as well as well as the way I train now as I can put more center hits faster with the single action from carry. Also in the settings I would probably have to deploy my weapon a miss would be devastating due to surroundings and circumstances.

I too like the idea of a decocker but the only firearm I have seen that allows me SA or DA option along with a decocker is the Taurus PT-945. The USP may have that option also but I do not know.

Boy am I behind the times. I never knew the 1911 or 1911A1 had firing pin locks, wow. When I first joined the Air Force, they had the .45s. Depending upon the situation, they were carried "cocked and locked." Saw a fellow airman drop his on the apron and it went off. No people or aircraft were hit. My S&W 65-2 can be decocked by placing the thumb under the firing pin and then slowly releasing the trigger. The rebound slide and hammer block come into play. My Sig P220-45 has the decocking lever in addition to the firing pin lock. That is neat!
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[ACP01]

Boy am I behind the times. I never knew the 1911 or 1911A1 had firing pin locks, wow. When I first joined the Air Force, they had the .45s. Depending upon the situation, they were carried "cocked and locked." Saw a fellow airman drop his on the apron and it went off. No people or aircraft were hit. My S&W 65-2 can be decocked by placing the thumb under the firing pin and then slowly releasing the trigger. The rebound slide and hammer block come into play. My Sig P220-45 has the decocking lever in addition to the firing pin lock. That is neat!
Enjoy the day,
Bill

Springfield and ParaOrdanance are two examples that come to mind.

In the Navy during a security react staging one guy on my team was cycling rounds thru the 1911A1 (to check function I guess) on about the fifth round just as the slide went back into battery, BAM! He didn't have his finger on the trigger either but it did slam fire. Needless to say he did not go in.