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  • Siren use?

    Does anyone here have a siren in their patrol vehicle? Do you require driver training and proper instruction?

    The reason I ask is this:


    Our property at work is one big circle with several entrances that have a "T" type of intersection as well as many ways to get to the perimeter road. When we have a fire or EMS call, we are required to escort the apparatus to the location. The problem is, while we show "due regard" with intersections, most people ignore our lights because they are on all the time. I feel this is dangerous since the apparatus behind us has its lights and siren activated. I do not want them to stop for us thinking its our siren and then get invloved in an accident with the emergency vehicle after we cleared. Meantime, we just lay on the horn when going through an intersection.

    Since a siren would not/is not used on a public roadway, do you think I am off base asking for sirens?
    "I am not a hero. I am a silent guardian, a watchful protector"

  • #2
    Originally posted by FireEMSPolice View Post
    Since a siren would not/is not used on a public roadway, do you think I am off base asking for sirens?
    No, I don't think it's off base at all, you are acting in an emergency vehicle capacity whilst escorting emergency vehicles to the proper location. If you can't get there, they can't get there.
    Anything that hits the fan,
    Will not be evenly distributed.

    Comment


    • #3
      Siren use

      We use sirens at my job currently, but we are also proprietary not contract. Our training consists of succesfully completing the CEVO II driving course ( its an approved emergency driving course similar to EVOC ). So far we haven't had any problems.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hmm.

        There are a lot of questions I can come up with. Before that, check with state and local statutes to verify that mere possession of a siren is not illegal.

        Now, for the questions.

        1. What color lights does your patrol vehicle have?
        2. Why are the lights always on?
        3. How much traffic does the intersection and private roads get?
        4. Does the apparatus follow you, or do you follow it?
        5. What speeds do the apparatus travel at within the property?

        Basically, if you're following the apparatus (its self-guided to the location), then why does it matter you stop at the intersection? I would not consider following an emergency vehicle to be an emergency where you get to disregard traffic law, even on private property, unless the emergency vehicle needs something only you can provide.

        Now, if the apparatus is running at full speed through your property and its supposed to follow you, then yes. You have a problem, and you may need a siren and additional lighting to warn other motorists.

        Another important consideration would be light color. If you're running ambers 24/7, then I'm not sure the siren would help. They'll wonder what's going on a bit, and continue on their way because some utility vehicle or security guard is in the intersection, not a "real emergency vehicle."

        This is a big problem, this running lights all the time to the point that everyone tunes them out, then expecting them to magically become blocking lights.

        If you're going to create an emergency vehicle on private property that is supposed to go through intersections with an engine behind it, you'll need more than a siren. You'll need emergency lighting in a color that people will recongize that you are an emergency vehicle, a siren, and the normal 24/7 ambers turned off.
        Some Kind of Commando Leader

        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
          This is a big problem, this running lights all the time to the point that everyone tunes them out, then expecting them to magically become blocking lights.
          I liken the yellow strobes to car alarms...

          Anytime someone hears them, the first thing to come to mind is...I wish that idiot would turn that damn thing off without ever going to investigate the cause for the alarm.
          Anything that hits the fan,
          Will not be evenly distributed.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
            Hmm.

            There are a lot of questions I can come up with. Before that, check with state and local statutes to verify that mere possession of a siren is not illegal.

            Now, for the questions.

            1. What color lights does your patrol vehicle have?
            2. Why are the lights always on?
            3. How much traffic does the intersection and private roads get?
            4. Does the apparatus follow you, or do you follow it?
            5. What speeds do the apparatus travel at within the property?

            Basically, if you're following the apparatus (its self-guided to the location), then why does it matter you stop at the intersection? I would not consider following an emergency vehicle to be an emergency where you get to disregard traffic law, even on private property, unless the emergency vehicle needs something only you can provide.

            Now, if the apparatus is running at full speed through your property and its supposed to follow you, then yes. You have a problem, and you may need a siren and additional lighting to warn other motorists.

            Another important consideration would be light color. If you're running ambers 24/7, then I'm not sure the siren would help. They'll wonder what's going on a bit, and continue on their way because some utility vehicle or security guard is in the intersection, not a "real emergency vehicle."

            This is a big problem, this running lights all the time to the point that everyone tunes them out, then expecting them to magically become blocking lights.

            If you're going to create an emergency vehicle on private property that is supposed to go through intersections with an engine behind it, you'll need more than a siren. You'll need emergency lighting in a color that people will recongize that you are an emergency vehicle, a siren, and the normal 24/7 ambers turned off.
            Nathan, in Ohio since we are on private property, we can even run red/blue lights if we wanted to. To answer your questions:

            1) The color of lights is Green/Clear. Thats the general color of Security in Ohio.
            2) Managements wants the lights on all the time for visibility
            3) Traffic can be moderate to heavy.
            4) The apparatus follows us. They typically know generally where to go but we escort them to the shortest possible route to the store and typically through the back corridors as the mall doesnt want them rolling in cots in the main entrances
            5) The posted property speed limit is 25 MPH. Normally people double that. Apparatus will usually go about 40 MPH, depending on the traffic.

            Our 2007 Honda CR-V can NOT have anything drilled into it as it goes back in 2010 after the contract is up with Honda. That one has Green and clear LED's on a chinese knock-off lightbar. Our 2002 Explorer has a Green/Clear Whelen Edge 9438
            Last edited by FireEMSPolice; 11-06-2007, 01:30 PM.
            "I am not a hero. I am a silent guardian, a watchful protector"

            Comment


            • #7
              We do not use sirens and our vehicles are not equipped with them at all.
              " We are determined that before the sun sets on this terrible struggle, our flag will be recognized throughout the world as a symbol of freedom on one hand and of overwhelming force on the other" - General George C. Marshall

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Hank1 View Post
                We do not use sirens and our vehicles are not equipped with them at all.
                That could possibly stem from mere possession being illegal in Florida.
                Some Kind of Commando Leader

                "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by FireEMSPolice View Post
                  Nathan, in Ohio since we are on private property, we can even run red/blue lights if we wanted to. To answer your questions:

                  1) The color of lights is Green/Clear. Thats the general color of Security in Ohio.
                  2) Managements wants the lights on all the time for visibility
                  3) Traffic can be moderate to heavy.
                  4) The apparatus follows us. They typically know generally where to go but we escort them to the shortest possible route to the store and typically through the back corridors as the mall doesnt want them rolling in cots in the main entrances
                  5) The posted property speed limit is 25 MPH. Normally people double that. Apparatus will usually go about 40 MPH, depending on the traffic.

                  Our 2007 Honda CR-V can NOT have anything drilled into it as it goes back in 2010 after the contract is up with Honda. That one has Green and clear LED's on a chinese knock-off lightbar. Our 2002 Explorer has a Green/Clear Whelen Edge 9438
                  I'd throw in a siren with air horn, and some red lights to the front. A dash light, maybe. People are going to ignore the green and white. Its always on, its not a "move out of the way" color. You basically have to convince people to stop, and lighting is an important part of that.
                  Some Kind of Commando Leader

                  "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Only Orange is allowed here and I recall patrolling with an idiot colleague who kept me in stitches only night impersonating a siren over our patrol car PA to move on 2 vehicles who were parked illegally. He sounds like he was off Police Academy. No sirens are allowed to be used for non emergency vehicles (police, fire and ambulance who use red / blue strobes) and our road safety vehicles for break downs use red / blue stobes as well - since most people tend to take note of possible police vehicles around.

                    The amber safety lights are used on tow trucks, escort vehicles for safety and safety vehicles (ie. wide loads or break down mechanics) and are used to warn people not to get home or quicker to McDonalds. 1 site I worked on had a portable air horn in the drivers compartment to be use for audible warnings but we never had a need to use it.
                    "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer" Sun Tzu

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Does anyone here have a siren in their patrol vehicle? Do you require driver training and proper instruction?
                      I haven't installed my siren in my PPV, as of yet. I doubt i'd ever have a need to use it, because the airhorn is a beautiful thing. Driver training, or EVOC (Emergency Vehicle Operations Course) is basically defensive tactical driving. You shouldn't need anything just to hit the siren button.

                      Our property at work is one big circle with several entrances that have a "T" type of intersection as well as many ways to get to the perimeter road. When we have a fire or EMS call, we are required to escort the apparatus to the location. The problem is, while we show "due regard" with intersections, most people ignore our lights because they are on all the time. I feel this is dangerous since the apparatus behind us has its lights and siren activated. I do not want them to stop for us thinking its our siren and then get invloved in an accident with the emergency vehicle after we cleared. Meantime, we just lay on the horn when going through an intersection.
                      Well, I don't think you having a siren on your patrol vehicle is going to help the situation. Specially sense they are right behind you, and people still aren't moving the heck out of the way (surprise there). One of the top 5 dangerous things for police officer's, happens to be driving code. Most driver's are idiots, and will sit there while you blow the heck out of your siren and airhorn, as if you're just sitting there waiting for the light like they are. You're suppose to pull to the right, and they pull to the left, etc.

                      Since a siren would not/is not used on a public roadway, do you think I am off base asking for sirens?
                      Private property, you can do whatever you want. Have the car covered in blue lights if you want. However, as Nathan stated, it depends on state, county or city codes on the mere possession. That is basically will you get busted when you hit a public road. You could always remove it by installing it with adapters. Kinda like plug-n-play.
                      "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        [QUOTE=FireEMSPolice;44642]
                        I do not want them to stop for us thinking its our siren and then get invloved in an accident with the emergency vehicle after we cleared.QUOTE]


                        So wouldn't that be a reason NOT to have a siren?

                        My personal opinion is if it's a private community (gated and everything), than it's not public at all. If the SO's have sufficient training, they should be able to have the equipment, and enforce traffic laws too.
                        If you fail to plan, plan to fail.

                        "People look to you to dig them out of life threatening dung - that is an awesome responsibility and should be honoured with your blood and sweat in preparation for the day when you may have to work very hard to save someone you might not even know or like. If you are terrible at your job, somebody gets blinded/maimed/disfigured or killed."-Slack

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                        • #13
                          I think the idea of always having lights on is like crying wolf, they are there to be seen but if there always on it's the same as the previously mentioned car alarm NO RESPONSE.

                          We use a red LED/Strobe bar and siren, nice and bright but still the few ignorant folks in the plant that don't realize that a lit up truck with siren activated means pull over (that's when I give em a steady phazer or air horn blast while on there bumper). Bur it still works allot better than when we were only running a yellow/white bar and no siren.
                          I'm the guy you don't want to be around when your doing something wrong, but you can't wait for me to get there when your down, to fix you up...

                          If you don't stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by BadBoynMD View Post
                            I haven't installed my siren in my PPV, as of yet. I doubt i'd ever have a need to use it, because the airhorn is a beautiful thing. Driver training, or EVOC (Emergency Vehicle Operations Course) is basically defensive tactical driving. You shouldn't need anything just to hit the siren button.


                            I take it that since this is your opinion towards EVOC that you have never attended a bonafide EVOC course then? Having been through both EVOC and CEVO II I can attest that they are more than just defensive driving. First and for most they teach you the law. Whether you drive a fire truck or squad car knowing the law is the most important part - it keeps you out of court. Second while they do teach you defensive driving that is not why EVOC is required. EVOC is required becuase you need the practice to get comfortable with your vehicle. Most people hear tires sqeal due to taking a corner too fast and they panic and lose control. EVOC is designed to teach the student the limits of their vehicle and how to control their vehicle safely once they reach those limits. I am a firm believer that if anyone, even security, is going to run code then they need EVOC

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                            • #15
                              I used to work for a company that provided us ford escapes with green and white rotator bas, amber flashers, and other miscelaneous lights.. They made it a requirement that we have atleast the traffic bar on at all times, which was stupid since it only shows to the rear anyway. The line guys eventually gave in an bought portable white strobes and put them on the roof to cover that problem. We had an airhorn/pa but no siren. the cars werent well set up. They let management go through galls and pick stuff and he had no clue what would work and work good for us. They later came up with a requirment where you had to put parking cones in front and behind the car everytime you parked. Dumbest thing ever. We'd run with lights to emergencies and just use extreme care, but even the city police agreed we needed a siren and light upgrade.

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