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  • #16
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
    Let me get this straight. A company owner cannot instruct his employees not to carry dangerous weapons? The state has taken control of their employees away, then.

    "I don't care if you're certified with everything in the book and hold an armed guard's license. You cannot carry anything, including a long metal flashlight, as we don't allow weapons or confrontation."
    Tell me about it...

    I'm in the hospitality industry, and working nights, a good 4 cell maglight is essential; However, answer a guest service call or a noise complaint with 3 lbs. of metal bar on your hip and people start feeling "intimidated"...
    “Two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left”
    "I swear to God, I'm going to pistol whip the next guy that says 'Shenanigans' "... Capt. O'Hagan, "Super Troopers"

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    • #17
      Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
      Let me get this straight. A company owner cannot instruct his employees not to carry dangerous weapons? The state has taken control of their employees away, then.

      In the US, in just about every state, a company may say, "I don't care if you're certified with everything in the book and hold an armed guard's license. You cannot carry anything, including a long metal flashlight, as we don't allow weapons or confrontation."

      And when the guard is injured, the company is Scott-free because the guard was "obviously" confrontational.

      The idea of being able to wear weapons against company policy is so very, very, odd to me.

      Yes, a company can ask you not to carry what is called "offensive weapons" here ie batons and handcuffs, however the NSW Prohibitted Weapons Act lawfully entitles a licenced security officer whilst acting in the course of his/her employment only to posses and use prohibitted weapons ie batons and handcuffs only as long as they have completed a recognised course in batons and handcuffs approved by the NSW Commissioner of Police.

      There is no law giving an employer the power to demand that you can not wear "offensive weapons" here. Carrying "offensive weapons" here doesn't allow someone to use the excuse they claimed the security officer was confrontational due to possesing these items and then assaulting them. If you are seriously injured here as a security officer, WorkCover NSW investigates the mater and if they decided your employer was negligent in their "duty of care" for not allowing you to carry batons and/or handcuffs they (the employer) can face serious criminal charges, not to mention civil lawsuit from the injured security officer.

      It appears tho, that we may have similar laws to the USA in the near future tho in regards to what you stated earlier, but at this present moment in time it's not the case.

      Firearms here are a different story, and you can only carry a firearm under extremely strict measures. Here in NSW we are now only allowed 9mm calibre handguns only, and you must complete a 109hr course and other new sweeping changes have come into play with this too.

      We are not premitted here to posses OC sprays as they are illegal items for anyone other than Police and Sheriffs.

      dougo83:- Yes any weapon here not on display ie batons, handcuffs, firearms etc are considered a "concealed weapon".
      A well trained dog is worth 10 men!

      I can recall my dog, but I can never recall a fired bullet!

      Would you prefer me to use the dog, the Glock, the baton or the O.C. spray? It's your health insurance so you decide. Alternatively there is always the handcuffs, followed by the Police with the court house preceeding rapidly after. Now which service would you like me to utilise

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      • #18
        w00t for WorkCover!

        If you were sent you off to do deliveries in a truck without brakes, that's negligent... sending off a SO to work 1-up at a potentially hazardous site with nothing to assist the SO to defend themselves (as defined by Government statutes) is equally as negligent IMHO

        The only thing preventing the use/carrying of batons is company policy (with the exception of State Law), my newly acquired 21" ASP goes to work whenever I do now, no exceptions
        "We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give" - Winston Churchill

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        • #19
          So, why can't they simply fire you for violating company policy by carrying a weapon they told you not to?
          Some Kind of Commando Leader

          "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
            So, why can't they simply fire you for violating company policy by carrying a weapon they told you not to?

            They can, no issues there however the employee could take legal action for unfair dismissal due to the employer providing an "unsafe workplace".
            A well trained dog is worth 10 men!

            I can recall my dog, but I can never recall a fired bullet!

            Would you prefer me to use the dog, the Glock, the baton or the O.C. spray? It's your health insurance so you decide. Alternatively there is always the handcuffs, followed by the Police with the court house preceeding rapidly after. Now which service would you like me to utilise

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
              So, why can't they simply fire you for violating company policy by carrying a weapon they told you not to?
              Wouldn't you prefer the option of potential dismissal/reprimand to one day finding yourself cornered (with no means of retreat) by an assailant high on drugs intent on doing you harm, with nothing but your humour to defuse the situation?

              I guess (unless you were lucky or a skilled martial artist) as you lay there bleeding from an injury, you could then take the time to contemplate the company's equipment policy...
              "We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give" - Winston Churchill

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              • #22
                Just because the law doesn't state that an employer can ban an employee from carrying a weapon doesn't mean they can't.
                "You gotta look like Rico Suave, Think like Einstein and, only if that fails...fight like Tyson." -Dougo83's FTO

                Me- "Should we call the police?" My FTO- "Justin, here, we are the police. Go get em."

                Originally posted by Black Caesar
                some people just need killin!!!!! (Or Tasing, or pepper spraying or whatever).

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                • #23
                  ??

                  dougo83:- Yes any weapon here not on display ie batons, handcuffs, firearms etc are considered a "concealed weapon".
                  Even a knife or multi-tool in the manufacturer's labeled case? Seems a little extreme if I'm reading this right. Anyone who can't tell what a Leatherman is by the case that clearly states the contents is a moron.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by dougo83 View Post
                    Even a knife or multi-tool in the manufacturer's labeled case? Seems a little extreme if I'm reading this right. Anyone who can't tell what a Leatherman is by the case that clearly states the contents is a moron.

                    No that's fine, as long as it's not inside the pocket of your pants etc. If it's in a pouch attached to your belt that's fine.
                    A well trained dog is worth 10 men!

                    I can recall my dog, but I can never recall a fired bullet!

                    Would you prefer me to use the dog, the Glock, the baton or the O.C. spray? It's your health insurance so you decide. Alternatively there is always the handcuffs, followed by the Police with the court house preceeding rapidly after. Now which service would you like me to utilise

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by JSam21 View Post
                      Just because the law doesn't state that an employer can ban an employee from carrying a weapon doesn't mean they can't.
                      Ban you from carrying Government sanctioned/approved/authorised security equipment? I don't see protective gear like a baton is any different from say goggles or a face mask when dealing with toxic/hazardous chemicals or welding etc.

                      Perhaps in your 'neck of the woods' such a company ultimatum/policy is commonplace, but under our Safe Work Places legislation... here that company is a potential law suit waiting to happen (providing you can prove that such equipment was required)

                      FWIW I reckon a 'defensive blow' from my 6D cell torch would do more damage than the 21" ASP
                      "We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give" - Winston Churchill

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        In the United States, OSHA does not recognize "violent encounters" as an occupational hazard for security and gaming agents. As such, if the company does not wish you to carry such weapons, they can terminate you for violating company policy.

                        This is a "for cause" termination, and means you will not get unemployment insurance payments.

                        Additionally, as most firms have a strict "you are not to become confrontational" requirement, the carrying of weapons is not a "needed safety device" as you are not to be placed in a position where you could use them, since you are not to become confrontational and are to flee the scene of a confrontation.

                        This is one of the many ways the security firms keep the profit margins high, and the liability down. If they let one guard carry a baton, they would have to ensure that everyone at the relative danger level does, and train all of them in the proper use of the device.
                        Some Kind of Commando Leader

                        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
                          In the United States, OSHA does not recognize "violent encounters" as an occupational hazard for security and gaming agents. As such, if the company does not wish you to carry such weapons, they can terminate you for violating company policy.

                          This is a "for cause" termination, and means you will not get unemployment insurance payments.

                          Additionally, as most firms have a strict "you are not to become confrontational" requirement, the carrying of weapons is not a "needed safety device" as you are not to be placed in a position where you could use them, since you are not to become confrontational and are to flee the scene of a confrontation.

                          This is one of the many ways the security firms keep the profit margins high, and the liability down. If they let one guard carry a baton, they would have to ensure that everyone at the relative danger level does, and train all of them in the proper use of the device.

                          Thanks for explaining what happens in the US It's interesting to see the differences and why there is differences.

                          I can certainly see the the "US side" to this, and in all honesty with some of the guards over here there have been a large number of guards whom have gone out and miss used batons and handcuffs, however they then have been charged by Police and found themselves before a criminal court, and often a civil court too.

                          Over here, OH&S (Occupational Health & Safety, and I think your governing body is OSHA?) is basically the biggest issue with employment. I know one security officer at this moment in time who is actually out with a medical certificate on workers compensation for stress due to the fact he was placed in a violent location with no support or backup. This is a common occurence over here too.

                          99% of security officers here in Australia work alone, with little or zero support or backup if a situation arises. These days most security officers simply carry a mobile phone, BUT are expected as per their SOP's to intervein in fights, and take down violent criminals. The amount of security officers that have been seriously injured has grown dramatically, as to workers compensation premiums.

                          This is what has led NSW Police to bring in new changes for new security officers in the industry, which written instructions must be given to security officers with these kept by the business owner for Police to inspect, and new security officers must work with a security officer with more than 1 year experience.

                          In NSW, if the business is using guns and/or dogs, it is compulsory for that company to have a minimum of $10m public liability coverage, otherwise your business licence is revoked. Most clients these days will not hire a security company here with proof by way of certificate of currency for workers compensation, and public liability.

                          It does appear tho we will be going down the same route as the US tho in years to come with batons and handcuffs. The main reason here is to control these items in the public more than anything. The problem at present is that as long as you have a current NSW Security Licence you have the authority to purchase batons and handcuffs, but can't use them on duty only until you complete a course in how to use them. What has been happening is that basically all guards go and buy these, but over the years these people leave the industry and their security licences expire and they now have "prohibitted weapons" in their possesion. What is going to be bought in here is that only the business licence holder can purchase these, and them issues them to the staff so the business owner is responsible for them at all times.
                          A well trained dog is worth 10 men!

                          I can recall my dog, but I can never recall a fired bullet!

                          Would you prefer me to use the dog, the Glock, the baton or the O.C. spray? It's your health insurance so you decide. Alternatively there is always the handcuffs, followed by the Police with the court house preceeding rapidly after. Now which service would you like me to utilise

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by K-9 Aussie View Post
                            Thanks for explaining what happens in the US It's interesting to see the differences and why there is differences.

                            I can certainly see the the "US side" to this, and in all honesty with some of the guards over here there have been a large number of guards whom have gone out and miss used batons and handcuffs, however they then have been charged by Police and found themselves before a criminal court, and often a civil court too.

                            Over here, OH&S (Occupational Health & Safety, and I think your governing body is OSHA?) is basically the biggest issue with employment. I know one security officer at this moment in time who is actually out with a medical certificate on workers compensation for stress due to the fact he was placed in a violent location with no support or backup. This is a common occurence over here too.

                            99% of security officers here in Australia work alone, with little or zero support or backup if a situation arises. These days most security officers simply carry a mobile phone, BUT are expected as per their SOP's to intervein in fights, and take down violent criminals. The amount of security officers that have been seriously injured has grown dramatically, as to workers compensation premiums.

                            This is what has led NSW Police to bring in new changes for new security officers in the industry, which written instructions must be given to security officers with these kept by the business owner for Police to inspect, and new security officers must work with a security officer with more than 1 year experience.

                            In NSW, if the business is using guns and/or dogs, it is compulsory for that company to have a minimum of $10m public liability coverage, otherwise your business licence is revoked. Most clients these days will not hire a security company here with proof by way of certificate of currency for workers compensation, and public liability.

                            It does appear tho we will be going down the same route as the US tho in years to come with batons and handcuffs. The main reason here is to control these items in the public more than anything. The problem at present is that as long as you have a current NSW Security Licence you have the authority to purchase batons and handcuffs, but can't use them on duty only until you complete a course in how to use them. What has been happening is that basically all guards go and buy these, but over the years these people leave the industry and their security licences expire and they now have "prohibitted weapons" in their possesion. What is going to be bought in here is that only the business licence holder can purchase these, and them issues them to the staff so the business owner is responsible for them at all times.
                            Its the same over here, 99% of all security are unarmed (no weapons), alone, and have no communications or support other than calling 911 from the client's phone.

                            Interesting concept. This is like buying an AR in California if you're a law enforcement officer, then you get fired or quit or retire and have an illegal weapon.
                            Some Kind of Commando Leader

                            "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Wow I want to move to N.S.W down here in S.A we can't carry a batton unless we carry a fire arm. With us on duty. So we have to be certified in fire arms and have to have a legal reason why we need them at our site.

                              Maybe thats why most S.A security officers carry 6D Maglites.

                              Its intresting to note the different laws between states. Like over in W.A Oc spray is legal for everyone.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by big_d View Post
                                Maybe thats why most S.A security officers carry 6D Maglites.
                                Holy Smokes! Are you sure that's a flashlight and not a baseball bat with a flashlight duct taped to the end? Machined aircraft aluminum tube packed with 6 D sized batteries will have the same effect, damn that's huge. Doesn't it bang the hell outta thier legs when they walk around? I don't see how anyone could run with that thing on their belt...

                                Though I have seen one or tow of them... Funny looking

                                Odd, that your lawyers down there haven't caught on that this is actually a blunt instrument.
                                ~Super Ninja Sniper~
                                Corbier's Commandos

                                Nemo me impune lacessit

                                Grammical and Spelling errors may occur form time to time. Yoov bin worned

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