What I cant carry.

[ChuckyZ73]

I had a little discussion with my boss and in doing so he said I could not cary federal hydrashok ammo because the "hypodermic needle" was "too aggressive for a guard to use". I would like to change his mind but need some actual facts and studies and such. any ideas?

[flashlightcop509]

Ummmm, ok....

Is "Hypodermic Needle" a euphamism for jacketed hollow point ammo?

I'm not putting the two together in the manner you posted; Far as I know, Federal brand or otherwise, duty ammo should be just that... If you need to discharge your fiream in the course of your duties, IMHO, it shouldn't make a bit of difference what type of bullet you use, as long as a situation can be diffused with minimal damage (Don't use a .50 BMG when a .22 will do) unless you are also restricted per company guidelines as to number of grains, bullet type, etc...

Hell, where I am (hospitality industry), using OC on a subject could be considered "Too Agressive" under certain instances...

[ChuckyZ73]

The choice of law enforcement agencies nationwide, Federal's unique center-post design delivers controlled expansion and the notched jacket provides efficient energy transfer to penetrate barriers while retaining stopping power. The deep penetration of this jacketed bullet satisfies even the FBI's stringent testing requirements.

It is a type of bullet. It really is not designed to hurt more but control the expansion of the bullet. However it does LOOK aggressive it actually makes the bullet less likely to over penetrate. He actually said it had something to do with his insurance. They don't want any "cop killer" bullets and the bullets he mentioned were "black talons" and "the one with the hypodermic needle thing" I took to be the federal hydrashok's. He does not actually know what I carry.

[CAPTAIN KOOLAID]

ammo

the federal hydrashok has low barrier rating it opens preture in heavy jackets sheet rock walls or auto glass that what fbi says any way.

[N. A. Corbier]

Black Talons (Ranger SXT Series) were controversial since they could defeat body armor. Of course, so can a .223 fired from an AR, and definitely a 7.62 from the AK.

I have never heard of a person calling Hydroshok "hypo" bullets.

I have a feeling the person did not actually make any consideration on what his guard force should be carrying ammowise, and just said, "buy some bullets," then his insurer gave him a list of "things that if you do, we will drop you for." Black Talons were on the list.

Insurance companies, for some stupid reason, want ball ammo. Minimum tissue disruption. Granted, you just dumped 1 round into a guy (no more, after all, the more bullets the more damage) and the round exited and hit the gas tank of a bus full of nuns with babies in their laps, exploding instantly and killing everyone within a half mile radius, but hey.

[Chucky]

There have been many post and reasons why certain shells should be used or not used. Like if you use a 357 mag and the guy you shoot has a 25 cal then that will be reason to charge you with excessive force. Some make sense and some are just plain dumb. When I head out to my truck in the morning I don't worry if this is my day to die or not because I know that I carry enough fire power to equalize the barrel that is aiming my way more or less.

Most the guys in my company are cops and many other cops stop by to shoot the breeze and not one has ever asked to see what type ammo I carry. I do use the same as most of them do but never questioned. Should you ever have to use your piece ( Chances are slim )remember dead if forever. Jail time and fines are not.

[Bill Warnock]

Black Talons (Ranger SXT Series) were controversial since they could defeat body armor. Of course, so can a .223 fired from an AR, and definitely a 7.62 from the AK.

I have never heard of a person calling Hydroshok "hypo" bullets.

I have a feeling the person did not actually make any consideration on what his guard force should be carrying ammowise, and just said, "buy some bullets," then his insurer gave him a list of "things that if you do, we will drop you for." Black Talons were on the list.

Insurance companies, for some stupid reason, want ball ammo. Minimum tissue disruption. Granted, you just dumped 1 round into a guy (no more, after all, the more bullets the more damage) and the round exited and hit the gas tank of a bus full of nuns with babies in their laps, exploding instantly and killing everyone within a half mile radius, but hey.

Nathan, well said. The Army doctrine for civilian guards years ago was to shoot only to wound. Modern double action revolvers carried by guards were chambered with only five rounds of ball ammunition with the hammer over the empty chamber so in the event the weapon was dropped there would be no accidential discharge. Ball ammunition met the Geneva Rules of warfare with regards to ammunition to be used in war. Further, doctrine stated you could only shoot to wound and if you could not discharge the weapon in such a fashion it was not to be fired. These guards would never deploy overseas but that didn't matter. When I asked why I was told that was the way it had always been in the Army and those were questions we were to ask guards when conducting security surveys. Those instructions were issue by US Army Counsel in the Pentagon. When I moved to a major command security office, I asked the same question I was told to not question formulated Army policy. There were other factors, never explained, that must always be considered. In light of 9/11, I'm sure things have changed but only after the command structure and their lawyers were dragged kicking and screaming into the new era.
Security officers are expendable, insurance dollars are not.
Chucky your remarks were on target in a very humorous manner. Tip of the hat!
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[ChuckyZ73]

He said he does want hollow point ammo however none of the "killer" bullets.

[CAPTAIN KOOLAID]

ammo

He said he does want hollow point ammo however none of the "killer" bullets.

I never knew there was nonkiller bullet and killer bullet I though they all killed
from fmj ,jhp and soft lead they all kill.
Sounds like your boss is cheap and he got a deal from he's ins company to carry the wimpest round out there.
Just my two cents.

[davis002]

He said he does want hollow point ammo however none of the "killer" bullets.

I looked all over the place for friendly bullets that hold open doors for old ladies, but I was unable to find anyone who makes them.

It sounds like your boss doesn't really know much of what he is talking about. The whole, "I don't want killer bullets" only proves his ignorance.

[SecTrainer]

I'm looking for the ammo that shoots out a little red flag from the end of the barrel that says "Bang!" Anyone know where I can get those?

Unfortunately, the fact is that any given round and/or caliber can be "inappropriate" for one situation and not for another and it's Murphy's law that you'll have the "wrong" load in your clip when the brown goes down.

[Minneapolis Security]

Black Talons (Ranger SXT Series) were controversial since they could defeat body armor. Of course, so can a .223 fired from an AR, and definitely a 7.62 from the AK.

I have never heard of a person calling Hydroshok "hypo" bullets.

I have a feeling the person did not actually make any consideration on what his guard force should be carrying ammowise, and just said, "buy some bullets," then his insurer gave him a list of "things that if you do, we will drop you for." Black Talons were on the list.

Insurance companies, for some stupid reason, want ball ammo. Minimum tissue disruption. Granted, you just dumped 1 round into a guy (no more, after all, the more bullets the more damage) and the round exited and hit the gas tank of a bus full of nuns with babies in their laps, exploding instantly and killing everyone within a half mile radius, but hey.

Actually, Black Talon (Ranger SXT, which I hear stands for same fu**ing thing) never had any armor piercing ability in the pistol calibers. It was just media hype. They didn't like the name. Some of the confusion may have come from the fact that armor piercing ammunition is usually painted black at the tip. Here is a link to Pinnacle Armor showing even the level 2a armor can defeat the Black Talon. http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-ar...stic-chart.php

[Hank1]

" I don't want killer bullets" . That just blows my mind! What can/do you say to someone that tells you that!?

Be safe,

Hank

[Ron Jessee]

I love this thread. The owner of the company I work for is former HPD. I asked him once about load choice considering the post I was working at had absolute CRAP for any kind of potential backstop.

The site was a small bank with floor to ceiling plexiglass on all but 1 side, and the 4th side had 8 to 10 tellers arranged in neat rows. On two sides were high traffic roadways, and one side was backed by a mini mall.

He answered my question by flat out telling me to get hydra shok or frangible ammo.

I think in the past so much emphasis has been placed on tissue damage with the way the bullet mushrooms (one armchair commando tried to explain the hydrashok as some kind of discarding sabot round lmao) that they forget that the main purpose is to prevent overpenetration in the first place. Whether you are LE, Security, or citizen, we are all accountable for what our ammo does, regardless of intent.

[Hank1]

I'm looking for the ammo that shoots out a little red flag from the end of the barrel that says "Bang!" Anyone know where I can get those?

Unfortunately, the fact is that any given round and/or caliber can be "inappropriate" for one situation and not for another and it's Murphy's law that you'll have the "wrong" load in your clip when the brown goes down.

Yeah! I think you can pick up one of those from the Acme Store where Whylie E. Coyote buys his.