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  • attacked, need opinions

    I was recently training at a "urban housing project" site with my FTO. Through the night, we were twice attacked by large gangs (a dozen of so) of juveniles who shot roman candles at us and threw firecrackers at us and our patrol car as we attempted to respond/apprehend. This forced us to keep our distance as they lit off more in our residents' backyards and porches - it took PD 20 minutes to respond (apparently 2 S/Os being attacked doesn't warrant a code response), with only 3 detained and all cut loose (no positive ID).

    Questions:
    1. Would you have done anything differently in this situation?
    2. My FTO recommended I load up my duty belt with various cases/pouches/doodads from the local cop shop. He said the appearance of being fully "loaded" would make myself look more formidable to all of the punks in the neighborhood, as they wouldn't know they were empty. Thoughts?

    I have the next few off and I start working the site solo this weekend. Ugh...wish me luck.

  • #2
    I know this is going to sound stupid but you can try this. get a HIGH and I mean HIGH powered spot light not one that you can buy at Walmart or some place like that you want at least 10 million candle power. Fire that off at them and or follow them with the light beam. A powerful light has a devastating affect on a persons eyes. Almost painful. By using it to follow where they run off to will also make them think twice. We used them in Iraq not only to stop oncoming traffic but to show that no matter what dark little hole they crawl into we could spot them. Remember don't fear what goes bump in the night, Hunt it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Just_Some_Guy View Post
      Questions:
      1. Would you have done anything differently in this situation?
      Hard to say because you really didn't characterize what your response was beyond calling the police. In my last security position, I worked at a middle school for a large school district security department. I found that juveniles really like to "test the waters," especially with the new guy. They'll try to see how much they can get away with around you and what rules and laws you'll enforce.

      Your first priority may be to get a good idea on who the "players" are in your area. Learn those kid's names and who their parents are. Follow up with their parents when situations like you described occur. Let the parents know where the line is between kids "being kids" and kids engaging in criminal behavior. When incidents like that occur, let the parents know when the police are called and that a report may be written or charges filed. The parents will hopefully be your biggest resource as far as getting the kids in line.

      Also, try to develope relationships with all your residents, but don't be the hardass that nobody likes, either. Know when to press the issue and be firm and when it's best to cut people a break and let the little things slide. There are laws that you obviously will need to enforce, and there will probably be client rules and expectations that you'll also be asked to keep an eye out for. Find a good balance with using your officer discretion, and you'll have an easier time.

      Originally posted by Just_Some_Guy
      2. My FTO recommended I load up my duty belt with various cases/pouches/doodads from the local cop shop. He said the appearance of being fully "loaded" would make myself look more formidable to all of the punks in the neighborhood, as they wouldn't know they were empty. Thoughts?
      I'd recommend having a duty belt that contains cases and pouches that are actually holding some equipment. What are you issued, and what are you authorized to carry? Is there anything that you aren't issued that you would be allowed to carry if you purchased it on your own?

      A bunch of empty handcuff pouches on your duty belt is only going to make you look like a joke when the secret gets out, and you'll lose absolutely all respect from the people who know. Juveniles, especially, are VERY curious about what equipment you carry and will ask you about it and try to touch/grab the stuff on your duty belt. You will also be asked, "Do you have a gun/Taser/bulletproof vest/etc.?" My answer to questions such as that was always, "That's for me to know, and for you to find out." This usually equates to a "yes" for them, but I found it prudent not to let the kids know what I did or did not carry. It helped keep them hesitant as to how much they could act out of line because they were scared they could get Tased.

      Good luck, and if I think of anything more, I'll post it here.
      Last edited by LPGuy; 07-04-2007, 04:55 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Just_Some_Guy View Post
        2. My FTO recommended I load up my duty belt with various cases/pouches/doodads from the local cop shop. He said the appearance of being fully "loaded" would make myself look more formidable to all of the punks in the neighborhood, as they wouldn't know they were empty.
        I would advise not going this route, because it is a dumb idea. These "punks" aren't complete fools, and it will take them no time at all to realize you have a bunch of empty cases. Once the word gets out, they will mess with you even more.

        It sounds like you are unarmed, and that this site is strictly O&R... am I right? If this is the case, they cannot possibly expect you to apprehend a dozen people alone and unarmed. Read your post orders, and if they say "Observe & Report"... do just that. Nothing more, nothing less.
        "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by SSPine View Post
          I know this is going to sound stupid but you can try this. get a HIGH and I mean HIGH powered spot light not one that you can buy at Walmart or some place like that you want at least 10 million candle power.
          Thanks, I'll try that.

          Originally posted by LPGuy View Post
          Hard to say because you really didn't characterize what your response was beyond calling the police.

          What are you issued, and what are you authorized to carry? Is there anything that you aren't issued that you would be allowed to carry if you purchased it on your own?
          Our response was to take cover until PD arrived. We were definitely not going to go after them while they're detonating small explosives at us. After the juveniles left the area, we scoured the area with 4 PD units for an hour (several residents called in the attack as well as vandalism on their property, which accounts for the large response). 2 were detained but released as we could not positively ID them, and a third was transported to the local precinct to be picked up by his grandmother, over an hour away. No charges, no case numbers.

          I am issued 0 equipment besides the Crown Vic. I borrowed another officer's vest for the night, and I carry a large maglite for defense. I am not allowed to carry any weapons yet (certification still in progress), but I can carry everything else.

          Originally posted by davis002 View Post
          It sounds like you are unarmed, and that this site is strictly O&R... am I right? If this is the case, they cannot possibly expect you to apprehend a dozen people alone and unarmed. Read your post orders, and if they say "Observe & Report"... do just that. Nothing more, nothing less.
          This is defintely not a observe and report site. We respond to calls from the residents all night (noise complaints, vandalism) and do a full vehicle patrol for the entire shift, clearing out public areas after nightfall and being a visible deterrance (a small amount of gang activity and drug dealing in the area). We ARE supposed to be proactive and make contact with people. Our only real weapon is to threaten an eviction (management typically evicts after 2 or 3 incidents) or arrest by PD (trespassing, if they refuse to leave). State law prohibits us from making arrests unless a felony is committed in our presence, but otherwise it's "use your best judgement", which I intrepret as "unless it's you/a child/a woman being physically attacked, don't even think about it".
          Last edited by Just_Some_Guy; 07-04-2007, 05:45 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Just_Some_Guy View Post
            Thanks, I'll try that.



            Our response was to take cover until PD arrived. We were definitely not going to go after them while they're detonating small explosives at us. After the juveniles left the area, we scoured the area with 4 PD units for an hour (several residents called in the attack as well as vandalism on their property, which accounts for the large response). 2 were detained but released as we could not positively ID them, and a third was transported to the local precinct to be picked up by his grandmother, over an hour away. No charges, no case numbers.

            I am issued 0 equipment besides the Crown Vic. I borrowed another officer's vest for the night, and I carry a large maglite for defense. I am not allowed to carry any weapons yet (certification still in progress), but I can carry everything else.



            This is defintely not a observe and report site. We respond to calls from the residents all night (noise complaints, vandalism) and do a full vehicle patrol for the entire shift, clearing out public areas after nightfall and being a visible deterrance (a small amount of gang activity and drug dealing in the area). We ARE supposed to be proactive and make contact with people. Our only real weapon is to threaten an eviction (management typically evicts after 2 or 3 incidents) or arrest by PD (trespassing, if they refuse to leave). State law prohibits us from making arrests unless a felony is committed in our presence, but otherwise it's "use your best judgement", which I intrepret as "unless it's you/a child/a woman being physically attacked, don't even think about it".
            Let me guess... this is in Florida?
            "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by davis002 View Post
              Let me guess... this is in Florida?
              Haha, complete opposite side of the country. Washington. Our contract is with the city housing authority to handle most nuisance calls so the police aren't tied up and so the residents can get a quick response (PD around here can take 30-60 minutes if they even choose to respond, we can be there in 1). We're fortunate enough to have a city officer patrol the project during the day (entirely on his own volition, he knows the types that live here and how hard our job is), but at night we're on our own.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Just_Some_Guy View Post
                Haha, complete opposite side of the country. Washington. Our contract is with the city housing authority to handle most nuisance calls so the police aren't tied up and so the residents can get a quick response (PD around here can take 30-60 minutes if they even choose to respond, we can be there in 1). We're fortunate enough to have a city officer patrol the project during the day (entirely on his own volition, he knows the types that live here and how hard our job is), but at night we're on our own.
                I assumed it was Florida because of the crazy "State law prohibits us from making arrests unless a felony is committed in our presence". Luckily, I am in Minnesota and our laws are more liberal when it comes to private person arrest authority.

                Anyways, LPGuy and SSPine both had some excellent advise. Try to build a rapport with the residents and their kids. LPGuy was right... don't try to be a hardass. It is my opinion that those who are firm but fair are more effective in security (and law enforcement). Also, pick up a copy of "Verbal Judo" on Amazon.com.
                "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

                Comment


                • #9
                  I would PR one of them so he can't get up.Then the others would never come back...


























                  Really I was joking HAHAHAHHA.Seriously the magic thing is cops but hey...if it takes 20 minutes for them to come then...erm your ****ed.In here cops takes like 2-3 minutes to arrive and they bring a whole station with them.Usualy...
                  Ain't war hell?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What part of WA are you in? I live in Tacoma. If you live anywhere around me I can almost bet on a couple of companies like this. Personally if I was in your position I would not work this site until fully equipped. I think you may have learned this the other night while kids were shooting rockets at you.

                    Safety should be your number one concern because at the end of the shift all that matters is you and your partner go home alive.

                    You said that you are riding by yourself tonight... you are a bigger man than I am cause I sure as hell wouldn't at least not without the proper tools.

                    Just my .02

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Just_Some_Guy View Post
                      Thanks, I'll try that.



                      Our response was to take cover until PD arrived. We were definitely not going to go after them while they're detonating small explosives at us. After the juveniles left the area, we scoured the area with 4 PD units for an hour (several residents called in the attack as well as vandalism on their property, which accounts for the large response). 2 were detained but released as we could not positively ID them, and a third was transported to the local precinct to be picked up by his grandmother, over an hour away. No charges, no case numbers.

                      I am issued 0 equipment besides the Crown Vic. I borrowed another officer's vest for the night, and I carry a large maglite for defense. I am not allowed to carry any weapons yet (certification still in progress), but I can carry everything else.



                      This is defintely not a observe and report site. We respond to calls from the residents all night (noise complaints, vandalism) and do a full vehicle patrol for the entire shift, clearing out public areas after nightfall and being a visible deterrance (a small amount of gang activity and drug dealing in the area). We ARE supposed to be proactive and make contact with people. Our only real weapon is to threaten an eviction (management typically evicts after 2 or 3 incidents) or arrest by PD (trespassing, if they refuse to leave). State law prohibits us from making arrests unless a felony is committed in our presence, but otherwise it's "use your best judgement", which I intrepret as "unless it's you/a child/a woman being physically attacked, don't even think about it".
                      Id consider someone shooting a roman candle at me aggravated assault because it could cause serious bodily injury as could the fire crackers. Also there is an Ag opinion that says in the state of WA a citizen can arrest for misdemeanors in presence.
                      hers what the DOl in washington state says about it. http://dol.wa.gov/business/securityg...zenarrest1.pdf
                      "Get yourself a shovel cause your in deep Sh*t"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Just_Some_Guy View Post
                        I am issued 0 equipment besides the Crown Vic. I borrowed another officer's vest for the night, and I carry a large maglite for defense. I am not allowed to carry any weapons yet (certification still in progress), but I can carry everything else.
                        Once your certifications are complete, will you be issued your weapons? I wouldn't carry empty cases/pouches/holsters on your duty belt in the meantime. In fact, I wouldn't even work the site until properly equipped, as you're looking at some huge safety issues there; that's something I'd take up with your supervisor. If the site calls for an officer issued with certain types of gear, then you shouldn't be working it until you have that gear. I think you'd have a good negligence lawsuit on your hands if you were hurt while told to work the site without the proper equipment.

                        Similiarly, police officers aren't put out on patrol while still working on getting their firearm, Taser, and OC training completed.

                        Originally posted by Just_Some_Guy
                        State law prohibits us from making arrests unless a felony is committed in our presence,
                        Incorrect. In Washington State, private citizens (to include security officers) may conduct a citizen's arrest for both breach of the peace misdemeanors committed in the citizen's presence and for felonies. Refer to this guide from the Washington State Department of Licensing that is written specifically for security officers: http://dol.wa.gov/business/securityg...zenarrest1.pdf.

                        I imagine you're going to deal with a whole range of crimes, to include domestics, fights and assaults, home burglaries, car prowls and auto-thefts, noise complaints, loitering, drug dealing, trespassing... good luck and stay safe out there. Get those certifications ASAP!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LPGuy View Post
                          Incorrect. In Washington State, private citizens (to include security officers) may conduct a citizen's arrest for both breach of the peace misdemeanors committed in the citizen's presence and for felonies.
                          LPGuy, do you have access to the DOL training videos (the ones they taped in the early 90s)? I believe it was from there where I was told I could not arrest except for felonies. Looks like the videos contain obsolete information.

                          Everyone else, yes, this issue will most definitely be taken up with the supervisor - that was a lot of action for my first night on site. My FTO has been here for 5 months said that he has never encountered that amount of violence by such a large group, this was a definite first. I am hoping it was only a one-time thing (school's out, kids are bored, have access to fireworks). I feel sorry for the officer out there tonight that has to deal with all of us. Happy 4th for him.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Just_Some_Guy View Post
                            LPGuy, do you have access to the DOL training videos (the ones they taped in the early 90s)? I believe it was from there where I was told I could not arrest except for felonies. Looks like the videos contain obsolete information.
                            I've never seen those videos. The document I posted above appears to be an opinion from 1995 on citizen arrest powers as determined by current Washington State case law, since we have "no statute concerning citizen's arrests generally" (as quoted from the document).

                            Originally posted by Just_Some_Guy
                            I am hoping it was only a one-time thing (school's out, kids are bored, have access to fireworks).
                            More than likely. The kids get pretty crazy at the end of the school year, especially when they have access to things that blow up.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Just Some Guy,

                              I know exactly what video you are talking about. It doesn't tell you the whole truth. In Washington State, Security Officers have a lot more than what most companies will lead you to believe. When I first started in this biz, I too believed it was Felony in presence only... that is not the case.

                              There is a Washington State Attorney General's Opinion that specifically denotes that citizens may complete a citizens arrest for not only the felony, but the misdemeanor given that it is a breach of the peace. It also allows for investigative detentions, something a lot states do not have.

                              https://fortress.wa.gov/cjtc/www/for...tudy_Guide.pdf

                              There is some good info in that PDF to open you up a little bit more to Security in WA and our use of force.
                              "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
                              "The Curve" 1998

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