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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Originally posted by james2go30
    But without some kind defensive dicipline, or training, seems it'd be a dangerous tool. Any weapon is dangerous to someone who doesn't know what they are doing. You have a point, a few good ones and well noted. Also on topic of martial arts...there are some very good forms and styles that can be deployed safely...some styles, and you are right, could be hazardous...espeacially if that person has some kind of super-man-of-steel super-cop ego...which of course does not have to be a martial artist learned that there a quite a few those out there. I know the police will train on defense and proper usuage and in the legal ways to use it.I would just be worried about some security companies not really caring either way. I know when I bought my baton there was no quetions asked just an exchange of cash...thought was weird. Thought definitely need to show my s/o license for a purchase like that.
    First... Hehe...

    1. Defensive Tactics is a science for professionals who use force to overcome criminal resistance to lawful orders. It really has nothing to do with martial arts, citizen self defense, or any of the like. Because you have a force continuum to adhere to, you can only use certain tactics at certain times, moving up and down the "force ladder" as required. As stated many times, this doesn't mean you need to ratchet it up one level at a time (soft techniques, empty hand, then OC, then baton), and can jack it from verbal commands to baton if the person displays resistance on the assaultive level. DT courses are also about articulating to the criminal justice system that the force used was reasonable and proper. In civilian self defense, you generally only have to articulate "He jumped out of nowhere at me, I was in fear for my life!" and then any tactic taught is valid, as you were trying to "kill" the attacker.

    These would include raking the face with keys, gouging out the eyes, groin kicks, raking the shins, stomping on the ankles, etc... The things that citizen self defense courses teach.

    While some martial arts courses are good for the mechanics of defense and restraint, were you taught such things as the FDLE Use of Force ladder, how to articulate the level of force used, how to determine the level of resistance encountered, etc?

    This is what separates the police DT course from the civilian self defense or martial arts course. And, in the state of Florida, security personnel are frequently held to the standards of police for use of force incidents.

    2. On the ASP, or any other weapon. Florida Statutes does not grant you authority to carry any weapon as a licensed security officer. A Statewide Firearms Permit grants you the authority to carry a firearm. However, the rest of what we carry is not regulated whatsoever. You are a private citizen when you wear an ASP or can of OC on your person. There is no law prohibiting it. However, there is a law prohibiting you from covering your ASP, as it becomes a concealed weapon.

    A case in point is when we wore raincoats. We, by Florida law, are required to display our batons (billy, club, or stick) outside of our raincoats, as well as our cans of OC. If you don't... You are carrying a concealed weapon, as your license only authorizes you to perform security services for a contract company, nothing more. Your firearms license only allows you to carry a firearm openly, or concealed for short assignments, in relation to your security duties. No right or authority is granted with the Class D license, only that an employee may perform security services for a contract company.

    Its a state permission slip to work contract or armed security.

    A soccer mom can carry a can of pepper spray, or a baton, so long as its visible on her person, or she has a CCW and its concealed.

    3. Your ASP, without manufacturer training, is considered a "billy" or "club" by Florida courts. Which means that you can only use it when authorized to use lethal force. If you have been trained in a recognized training course (ASP, PPCT, MEB, Winchester, etc), then it may be considered a non-lethal weapon as you have been trained in where to strike and how to strike so as not to kill the person you are striking.

    Florida does not require this training for the weapon, no more than it requires training to buy a gun, a can of pepper spray, a sword, or a pocket knife. Which is why you aren't carded... After all, a proprietary security person does not require a Class D license. How would he carry any of that if you required a Class D license to purchase a baton?

    4. The overall thing here is that the Class D training is specifically designed to cover the basics of security, observe and report security. The topics I mentioned are generally referred to as "advanced security training," which is not regulated by the state. You are a private citizen at all times, but when you move from observing and reporting to actually laying hands on people, then you must be aware of the law, and be able to prove that you were trained in the application of force.

    Being prior military doesn't cut it, and being prior law enforcement only works if you were FDLE certified. This is why companies that do more than observe and report frequently use their own instructors, or send people to places like S2, to teach things like handcuffing, expandable baton, pepper spray, etc.

    We are judged in Florida like the police are when we take physical action against someone, because the same statutes (Chapter 775) regulate the use of force.

    Leave a comment:


  • james2go30
    replied
    thats true

    But without some kind defensive dicipline, or training, seems it'd be a dangerous tool. Any weapon is dangerous to someone who doesn't know what they are doing. You have a point, a few good ones and well noted. Also on topic of martial arts...there are some very good forms and styles that can be deployed safely...some styles, and you are right, could be hazardous...espeacially if that person has some kind of super-man-of-steel super-cop ego...which of course does not have to be a martial artist learned that there a quite a few those out there. I know the police will train on defense and proper usuage and in the legal ways to use it.I would just be worried about some security companies not really caring either way. I know when I bought my baton there was no quetions asked just an exchange of cash...thought was weird. Thought definitely need to show my s/o license for a purchase like that.
    Last edited by james2go30; 01-12-2007, 04:23 AM. Reason: miswording

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Originally posted by james2go30
    i like it...the concept of it...but prfer the ASP. However, looks like will only work good with security officers with some either police or miltary training or some form of martial arts knowledge. As Nathan pointed out in another post on another subject there are a lot of officers without the that sort of training and their companies could care less about giving it to them... could dangeous to the untrained s/o.
    Prior training is irrelevant, I'm afraid. For a weapon to be deployed, every user must be trained and certified on it using industry standard training material. A martial arts trained security person would have no more or no less of a training requirement than any other user: They still need trained in the specific weapon.

    When I see people reply to "have you had defensive tactics training" with "My friends are cops, they'll show me a few things," or "I've had extensive martial arts training," it scares me a little. Neither of these things are a substitute for completion of a recognized defensive tactics program. You learn more than just "how to hit" and "how to take a hit." You learn how to legally articulate what level of force you are using to regain control, and how to apply that level of force against others.

    Leave a comment:


  • james2go30
    replied
    interesting

    i like it...the concept of it...but prfer the ASP. However, looks like will only work good with security officers with some either police or miltary training or some form of martial arts knowledge. As Nathan pointed out in another post on another subject there are a lot of officers without the that sort of training and their companies could care less about giving it to them... could dangeous to the untrained s/o.
    Last edited by james2go30; 01-11-2007, 11:19 PM. Reason: misworded

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  • Mr. Security
    replied
    It would be effective in controlling and removing a subject in the driver's seat who resists coming out of the vehicle. Even if he drives off, it's going to be tough getting far with the baton locked on his wrist. It also keeps the officer from reaching in to cut off the ignition and then getting dragged. It does however, appear to be cumbersome. I like the idea noted by some members of keeping the ASP and having this baton mounted in the patrol car for special circumstances.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dam Guard
    replied
    It is an interesting device. Time will tell how far it goes in usefulness. I also believe it shows promise. I always loved the PR24 but it seems to have fallen out of favor a bit these days.

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Looking at the video, I think the device shows promise. It can work as a traditional straight stick. I'm not sure about the level of practice that would be required to use it like a PR-24 or tonfa-like weapon with the power strokes, but all in all, its still a straight stick - and those are still used all over the US.

    Now, they didn't show a suspect actually resisting in the video, but if you can snag a wrist with it, you have leverage against the suspect, especially if you can compound it by pulling the stick inwards to your body.

    I wouldn't use this as a primary impact tool any more than a full sized PR-24, simply because the moment I needed it, I'd find it in the car or in a fixed post guard mount. You can say the ASP is a backup to this, or this is a backup or dual-purpose device in addition to the ASP, but the ASP stays on the belt - I can't forget that.

    Leave a comment:


  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Before people judge the device prematurely on the basis of a couple of photographs, here's a demo of the Apprehender on You-Tube - obviously, it's not quite what people are pre-judging it to be.

    I will definitely be looking at this new baton much more closely, and especially now that I've looked at the video very closely several times, it's very obvious that it couldn't be taken away from the officer one bit more easily than any other baton. Incidentally, the concept of the "control zone" mentioned toward the end of the video, almost as an afterthought, is probably the most critical thing you should notice about this tool. One of the venues where I think it might have particular value is hospital security, controlling potentially violent patients in a safe manner. Brilliant!

    It's brand new, of course, so there's some testing to be done, but I'm guessing it will probably sell quite well to the LE community, presuming it's well-made and they don't uncover problems with the cuffing mechanism. (I have no financial interest in this product or the company that makes it.)
    Last edited by SecTrainer; 01-05-2007, 08:39 PM.

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  • Andy Taylor
    replied
    Originally posted by SecTrainer
    I take it from the comments, then, that no one has actually seen or picked up one of these batons. I learned about this baton when our county sheriff's department obtained one and liked it well enough to evaluate them further, so when I hear something on their results I'll post it here.
    I had not seen or heard of this previously. I like the concept but as others had mentioned, I see a good deal of potential for take aways, giving the suspect a weapon. The idea needs work, IMHO.

    Leave a comment:


  • SecTrainer
    replied
    I take it from the comments, then, that no one has actually seen or picked up one of these batons. I learned about this baton when our county sheriff's department obtained one and liked it well enough to evaluate them further, so when I hear something on their results I'll post it here.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawson
    replied
    Not to mention... good luck getting that on someone's arm, especially if they are resisting.

    Leave a comment:


  • Echos13
    replied
    This looks like something between a bent PR-24 and a steering wheel club lock.

    Nothing to hold on too indeed.

    You would be better using the club lock it has at least something on the end to hold on too.

    Leave a comment:


  • fatalflaw
    replied
    that would kinda suck, your walking out of the bathroom and your cuff end of the baton grabs the door handle and latches on :P

    I like the "idea" of the cuffing baton but its execution and design seems poor, maybe a bit of refining but like I said I like the concept.

    Leave a comment:


  • PAofficer
    replied
    Seems it might be a little bulky on the belt and possible a hinderance when it catchs everything you walk past. Just my 2 cents.

    Thanks

    Leave a comment:


  • fatalflaw
    replied
    Definatly a bad idea. You would just give the suspect a very potentially deadly weapon to pulverize you with.
    Last edited by fatalflaw; 01-04-2007, 03:23 AM.

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