O.C. Review...

[Mall Director]

Pepperball Technologies PAVA II (Single OC Content)..

PepperBall Technologies PAVA II OC 5.5.% Spray Review:

- PAVA II is a single OC component. Unlike Def-Tec or Sabre, where they use 2-3 different Capsicum oils, PAVA uses only one. We went out and purchased a can of the 5.5% Spray, and tested it, as follows:

* Unlike Def-Tec, with multiple Capsicum oils, PAVA uses one oil only. It does however share the same projectant agent, Nitrogen. Good news. It has no solvents. I was impressed with this!

On Contact: The "subject" felt no instant effects, as OC usage is common. Almost 3-5 seconds later, the heat came on. Instant burning sensation took in, eyes started swelling shut, coughing, and skin redness appeared. Disorientation took on along with the heat. Very effective.

Decontamination: Reported that it became workable through in about 15 minutes. Decon went quick though. Where with other products, it took almost another 15 minutes before the intesne pain went away, PAVA took only 10 minutes with water.

Spray: Same consistant spray pattern as other brands, but there was no obvious oil residue on the skin that was heavy. The light didnt reflect the way it does on an oily surface, like that of other agents.

Its very effective, I cant say anything negative about it, but it is appearant that there is only one OC agent used, from texture of spray, and decontamination time and wear down. If you want something to get your common agressors attention, this will do. It doesnt have solvents, so you are safe in court. But in the event your subject is under the influence of a narcotic or alcohol, it may not be as effective, and wear out sooner.

[Mall Director]

VEXOR V7: Microspin Synthetic Formula..

Yeah, I got one, and its cheap, too. Next order from Galls, pick up a can of their Galls spray. See if you can:

1) Figure out from MSDS and Lot Information who's making it
2) Does it work?
3) How different is it from whoever's making its normal formulation.

Actually, I got two more, actually...

1) Pepperball PAVA Spray
2) VEXOR, the insane non-OC OC.

Pepperball tells me that PAVA-II spray is legal in WI, and if its consistantly hot, I'd probably issue it.

Vexor is just weird, its synthetic OC like PAVA, but its 1% pure capscain in suspension.

Well.. We got our can in last week, and tested it out right away. I must say one nice thing about this product.. Like Def-Tec and Sabre, this company has good policies with documentation and providing MSDS sheets, as well as other documents.. They back you in the court aspect.. So thats a super big plus with me!!

As for the product itself:
- Again, one capsicum oil. It has a synthetic blend as well to get the SHU up there in heat ratings. It also prevent evaporation.

- When we fired it, if you look closely, you can see its "microspin" technology work. It sprays pretty consistant with the amount and direction. It held up against the wind.

- One big problem, is that its pattern of spray is too direct. It lays on heavy, but its pattern is so narrow compared to other brands. It would be great for indoor, but then you might as well use foam. When you are in the heat of the mess, you do have to use a little more care with directing the spray. I know when we get into scuffles, just pulling and spraying at the subject can sometimes be a challenge.... Which leads to a final issue I have with this product.. How many safety features do we need??? The can we got has two seperate safety locks on it. That s a little excessive in my opinion. I dont want to try and figure out all the locks when trying to draw and spray.

- Effects: It has a considerable amount of heat to it. Effects took only a few seconds (3-4) and the heat came on strong. It caused immediate choking, caughing, swollen eyes, and redness to the skin.

- Decontamination: after the effects lasted strong for about 30 minutes, decontamination was pretty simple. Water had a nice effect to calming and soothing. 10 minutes later it was very bearable.

Overall, I like the advanced technology used by Vexor, but I think they went the wrong direction with OC. For one, the use of carbination or compressed gas means you have to shake your can regularly, like a foam. But the spray by Vexor needs a good shake before use. That combined with the safety locks, and then adding a super directional spray pattern makes this product very difficult to use. I know a person can learn to use it, but along with training, it needs to continue to be practiced on, and hopefully second nature will adapt to usage.

Like I said, I like the direciton and safety they are going with, but too much into deployment is a big problem. We rely on OC for quick use and reliablility, and the design of this system is a little too intense, especially when in intense situations.

[N. A. Corbier]

Ok, you know the amount of respect you get in this forum and I parellel that attitude, but the KITCHEN!?! You were to excited huh? I know it comes in that cool box and everything, but even I decided against testing it out in my basement. Joking aside. I got the wipes, but I didn't have them with me. If that 45 minutes were the norm for this stuff I really really don't want to be on the recieving end, but I did tell a few people I'd take a hit with it. It may just be an arm hit now. A few years ago Gateway (the local 2yr college here) used the double barrel type of OC made by Vexor or Capstun during thier DAAT class, the guys I talked to about it said it was the worst thing that ever happened to them. A girl I talked to said she thought it was worse than giving birth, with no epideral or drugs! So if you (NA) read about some guy who spontaneously combusted because of this pepper spray it was me. Oh wait only KPD does that.....

I was going to test it outside, but someone reminded me of our wonderful laws in Wisconsin which would make me a criminal for discharging it outdoors. So, it had to be somewhere in the house. Kitchen is easily ventable.

[ctbgpo]

Mall Director


Why did you test the 5.5 % cone and the 10 % foam. I am interested in going to the def tech and would appreciate you opinion on the subject in regards to cone or stream (thinking stream and foam) I work in a hospital setting. I am issued spray and foam at my full time job, but part-time it is up to me, but I must buy own. I enjoy the foam for inside the ed where i dont want to "gas out" the department, but cone for perimeter id

[ctbgpo]

rather have the stream. Just wondering your opinion. Also as I have to pay for it myself can you recommend a good website/catalog to purchase. Thank you any and all for your opinions. Stay safe.

[Mall Director]

rather have the stream. Just wondering your opinion. Also as I have to pay for it myself can you recommend a good website/catalog to purchase. Thank you any and all for your opinions. Stay safe.

I hope anything i can provide you will be of great help or any help to you!

As for Def-Tec, as much as I dont like standing up on a box and ranting about what I think is good, and trying to keep an open minded, non biased viewpoint.. I am partial to Def-Tec, but found other great aspects to the other spray companies.

As for your situation, I, personally, recommend the Foam. I forget which state you work in, but we all know some states seem to have a greater population of "sue happy" residents. I like to avoid lawsuits, while exercising what directives and laws I can to the fullest when called upon, and this goes for Chemical Defense Agents.

Foam, which is what my department uses, and now our corporation after my written and proven review, has been very successful. It is more concentrated not only in target area, but in "copious amounts". Some people wear make-up, glasses, contacts, facial hair, long hair and so on.. Foam is great for these areas, as it doesnt particalize during deployment, and completely saturates the subject and his/her conditions. I found one thing very interesting about foam, as compared to spray. Spray will send a funnel cloud out when used. Its particals are already in expanded form, and travel through the air in the same consistancy as from firing point to connecting point. Foam, on the other hand, is a strong hose like stream, and does not particalize from firing point to connecting point, until it comes into contact with surface material. One dime sized drop of foam expands to a half dollar size when it touches normal surfaces, but when it comes into contact with skin, it almost goes to dollar bill size. Fascinating stuff. So, it will coat your subject very nicely. (not to mention, does your subject do alot of yelling and screaming while attacking.. more than likely yes.. well a good amount of foam in the mouth tends to quiet them immediately. Noise polution gone!).

Here is what I like the most about Foam: Not only does it expand on contact, but take a situation and subject, who is not effected by OC (6% of the tested subjects by federal testing). You spray with standard or hot spray.. the subject does not stop. You now have to consider other alternatives.. With Foam, it has a second purpose.. Even if its OC composition does not effect the subject at all, like a spray, it has a blinding composition. It covers the subjects eyes when sprayed. So it may not burn the subject, but the foam makes a blanket over the eyes, which blinds them. The subject can now no longer see you to continue the attack.

My officer a few weeks ago had a drunken subject attack him. Due to the officer being on the phone with PD dispatch, and not being able to let them go in order to have the use of both hands to take down the subject when he attacked my officer, the use of OC was needed. The officer drew his Foam, and sprayed. Guess what? We had one of the 6% that the burn did not have an effect on immediately. It eventually "burned" him out, but before the effects came on, the only thing that hept the subject from finding the officer during the attack, was that the foam coated his eyes and blinded him. The subject spent a good amount of time trying to wipe away the foam off of his eyes, which delayed the attack from continuing. Being intoxicated, the subject was not immediately effected by the spray, but being blinded caused him to loose sight of the officer. While wiping away the nasty orange blanket from his eyes, the burn finally took effect, which them totally disabled him! This same officer also carries X2, for the out door use. He knew that if he used the super hot X2, it would have burned, but delay time due to intoxication would have caused him risk, as it would not have blinded him.

Its really up to you! I will also mention that the clean up is wonderful with Foam. You know where it is, you dont smell it as it doesnt float in the air for some time afterwards. I spooked our janatorial staff, as they were really worried about the OC the Officers were carrying. I took all of them into a small room, and hosed the floor. They jumped and freaked, then calmed down when they didnt smell anything. Then with water and baby shampoo, I scrubbed up the floor quickly, ran my fingers across the surface then touched my face and eyes.. No burn. It proved to them that they didnt have anything to worry about if an Officer used spray and it contacted the walls or floors, and they had to clean it up. I watched alot of people feel releived.

For hospitals and other indoor facilities, Foam is very ideal. No innocent people can wander through your mess, start sniffing, then ham up a scene by acting as though they are on fire and will "sue you for letting me walk through OC!".

Final note: Def-Tec and Sabre both take care of you through to the end, meaning court. They both provide a complete chemical composition and federal test results upon request to back your "safe product" usage in court. Def-Tec is also FDA approved, and made of 100% food grade material!

[Mall Director]

Ohhh, before I forget.. Def-Tec also carries a line of OC product, same composition as First Defense, but is called LE Body Armor. This product (MKIV and MKIII) has the same exact composition as First Defense, but packs twice as much product into the same sized can. It also runs half the price as First Defense.

I couldnt believe my eyes. How is it that the same comapny carries the same product, but with different labelling and that the can that carries more product can cost less???? I found out. Body Armor is not their brand name roduct, commonly sold in stores and catalogs. It was specifically designed for the LE community, as they go through more of it than self defense civilian counter parts. So Federal Labatories cut a break to the LE community, and further assisted them by making a product that doesnt run out as quickly and costs half the price. They dont advertise this, so its a special request item, but can be purchased.

I spent a few hundred dollars, at $20 a can, for foam on First Defense before I found out about Body Armor. Arrr, I kicked myself. Now I have cases of First Defense sitting in storage as back up, after going out and purchasing Body Armor... Ohh well, live and learn.. Ohh, and share with others so that they dont have to learn the same way!!

[ctbgpo]

Mall Director

I appreciate all of your help it was very helpful I definetly will be packin foam on my hip. I really only need a can for duty and a spare so four cans total (foam and stream for outside the hospital) will Def-Tec sell me just four cans of the L.E body guard, should I attempt to call them directly or just try looking on the net. Again any info you can provide would be appreciated. I also thank you for the above. Stay safe

[Mall Director]

Let me help you.....

Here is something I know you will appreciate, and SAVE ON!!

Yes, you can even purchase just 1 can! Here.. I want you to call these people..

http://www.kinsco.com/

I shop there regularly, and the Body Guard LE brand runs about $9.00 a can. Is that enough of a savings? They do ship! (I hope you get the lady on the phone, shes the only female working there, and she is very nice. And if you want, let her know Chris sent you! )

[ctbgpo]

Thank You Very Much !!!

I truly appreciate all of your help and expertise, I will be calling her in the am.
If I can ever help you out give me a shout.

Pete

[Mall Director]

Not a problem.. Been there, had to deal with it mself. I hope this all benefits you greatly, and as I find other great deals, or info, I am happy to share. Why sit by and watch others struggle with what I already have.. Lets simplify it all!

[SecureTN]

At my Mall, we aren't authorized to carry any defensive equipment, or wear vests... But I carry a can of Freeze +P... just for personal use, off duty.

[N. A. Corbier]

At my Mall, we aren't authorized to carry any defensive equipment, or wear vests... But I carry a can of Freeze +P... just for personal use, off duty.

Ok, let me get this straight. You carry a can of Freeze +P at work, for off duty use? That's a good way to get fired if you ever actually have to use it.

[Mall Director]

I havent heard of this product... What exactly are we talking about now??

EDIT: I just found this, so now I think I am going to check into this stuff.. Inconsistant results doesnt sound comfortable.. (RE: I wont test it, but want to look into it).

http://www.zarc.com/english/news/freezep2.html

[bigdog]

that article is talking about freeze+p thats pepper spray and cs gas mix.