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  • O.C. Review...

    Well, I said I would do a write up, lets see how it goes. As many are you are already aware, I am a Def-Tec Instructor, and posted alot of good info, but do to our crash, it was lost sadly. We started to go into getting evaluations of different brands of sprays and types, and I said I would sit down and get it out again, and to add the latest tests.

    My officer have to go through training in OC use and exposure. I have a couple who, for lack of better terminology, are "hard core", and dont mind to much getting exposed to a variety of sprays. I do however buy them lunch each time I subject them to a new component, LOL!

    The Standard: Direct spray into facial area, tactical stance, short burst (2-4 seconds), and then task completion of apprehension.

    The results: After exposure, I get feedback on the different sprays, and comparisons. How long did it take, how long for decon, physical notations, short term and long term effects, contents. Just about everything we want to know, but really can only find out from getting sprayed ourselves. I use the same two officers, as they can dictate acurately the differences.

    Overview of Brands:

    - Defensive Technologies, First Defense Brand "Pepper Spray" 5.5%:The 5.5 sprayed in a very large cone pattern. The center of the cone was the most concentrated. The effects are as listed: Burning, redness of skin, swolen eyes, nasal release, choking, disorientation When used, it took a couple seconds for the effects to take effect. The burn was heavy, there was an oil residue on the exposed site, strongest effects lasted 20-30 minutes. Cold water and air. The air was the major helper in decon. There was the stretching skin sensation that was light and lasted for a couple hours. Showering later on made the effects re-occur, and getting particles into eyes from the hair will happen. Next day: No results.

    - Def-Tec, 1st Defense "Pepper Foam" 10%: Very concentrated stream. No cone spray, area contamination is none. Thick fluffy orange stream, it does desolve instantly on contact, and thow back is nearly impossible if used in moderation. Over saturation is not needed, as it lays it on thick. The effects are same as above, except the nasal passages can become swollen shut from the amount of irritant that travels up the nose. It seaps into closed lips, very heavy oil residue left on face. Minimal to none in "apple Blossum" odor after use. strongest effects last 45 minutes to 1 hour. Decon takes alot of water, and air. After decon, the stretch skin sensation remains for many hours. Showering later on revives original effects. Next day, stretch skin effect lasted. Redness lasted longest, as well as dry eye sensation. The officer had red eyes the rest of the day, and stated the burn in the eyes didnt want to stop, and bugged him the rest of the day.

    - Def-Tec, 1st defense "X2, Pepper Spray": Same heat feel as 5.5%, but effects lasted almost 2 hours on heavy consistant burn. This stuff was described as "nasty". During decon, water was helpful, only when constantly in the water, and a few seconds after water was taken away, burn came right back to almost full effect. Officer stayed in water for almost an hour, and kept going back every 5 minutes for the next couple hours. Very heavy oil residue, like the foam. Shower time that evening was described as "re-exposure", and the stretch skin sensation lasted all day the next day. Dry eyes were noticable the next day as well. Spray was the same as 5.5 when pressed, so no differences in patterns.
    Deputy Sheriff

  • #2
    Sabre Red 5%:

    Sabre Red was used next. Its a different brand, and manufactored by a different company.

    5% "Spray": Stream pattern same as def-tech, but seemed to place more concentration in the center of cone, with more pressure in contents. It had the same pattern, but noticably oiler residue than Def-Tec. The effects are the same as Def-Tec, but shower time reconstituted stronger. Hair seemed to be most contaminated. Effects did however last almost 45 minutes after direct exposure. Water was sought out heavily. Air helped out alot. Stech skin effect lasted for a few hours afterwards. Effects took same 2-3 seconds before noticable, and contamination of officer and area was strong. Also, the "apple Blossum" odor was more predominant. It also had a deeper orange coloration.
    Deputy Sheriff

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    • #3
      FOX 2% (standard purchase product):

      FOX 2% "Spray":Effects took 2-4 seconds. At first it was workable in tasks, but after about 10 seconds, it started to really take effect. The effects lasted 15-20 minutes, and decon was quick, 5-10 minutes. Same spray pattern, not as heavy as Sabre Red, but somewhat comparable to Def-Tec. There was not any reported skin stretching effects. Shower time was pretty mellow. I did notice a strange odor along with the "apple Blossum", couldnt put my finger on it though.

      FOX 2% "Foam": It had a nice stream, but the foaming took longer to disolve than Def-Tec. It had more of a cream color in the dye. The oil residue was heavy, but not as thick on the skin. Decon took the same as a 5.5 spray. Reconsitution was impressive though. When showered, it came almost right back. If in hair, it will spread again easily. Air is the biggest counter agent.
      Deputy Sheriff

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      • #4
        MK-9 Units:

        We only tested out the Def-Tec Mark 9 Unit, as these units are pretty costly to just use. They run about $50 a can, so going wild with different cans will take time. We used the Def-Tec MK-9 as it was needed for level 4 contamination;

        MK9 "Fogger":WOW, what a item! If you ever had the chance to play around with MK 4 units, the MK9 is different. It has a kick when you press the button, so hold the handle firmly. It does "spray", heavily, everywhere, all over the place. It had a wide oval pattern, and layed it on thick. The MK 4 had an acutal round cone pattern, where the MK 9 had an "oblong" pattern. The fogger is a very high yeilding irratant. When opened up, it kicked off with very noticable pressure. Immediately, eyes started burning. Choking was the strongest effect. No real skin irritation, unless sprayed directly at person. Then it had the same effects as standard spray, except that it coated much better, and thicker, so air and water had a harder time penatrating. It does get into everything.

        I will warn this however. In even just going out and releasing what was left in the can, 1/6 full, it had the same effects as when it first was used, which is area contamination. These units will contaminate everything, and i do mean everything. We used it on a blocked off service pad, and even in a room on the pad. You can smell the apple blossum on the other side of a mall easily. Ever know what spray smells like.. you can tell it was used even if you are on the other side of a building. Area direct effect contamination (wher eyes started burning and nose and throat burned) was well over 100 feet. You can still catch enough of the agent that it tickles your throat and kinda feels like dirt got it your eye. I also do not recommend placing a subject that has been "hosed" with a MK 9 in the back of a car, the effects are really strong. Decon how ever, was easy, no water, just air if not directly exposed. Directly exposed, it burns, and water is very helpfull.
        Deputy Sheriff

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        • #5
          Comparison and Preferences:

          Well, I can say it is really preferance to a major degree with most of the ones we have tried out. How long do you want the burn to go on? Thats the big question.

          If you want it known to the subject that they have been exposed, Def-Tec 5.5%, 10% foam, and Sabre Red 5.5%, will let them know easily. And it will stick around for a while to keep reminding.

          If you like being sadistic (LOL, just kidding), "X2" will take the longest to get over the effects.

          The burn rate with almost all of these were the same. I will say that FOX however, needs more oil in their composition, as it dries out pretty quick.

          "Foggers" are pretty useful in a very bad situation. I would never ever recomend a MK-9 "Fogger" indoors, as it will take a very long time, even a couple days to decontaminate. It is messy, and will make a mess of your multiple subjects that are exposed. The pressure from the MK-9 was interesting. You can almost take someones clothes off of them if you open it up too close, hence the 6 foot minimum rule.
          Deputy Sheriff

          Comment


          • #6
            Spray, Foam, Fogger?

            Depending on your needs, a quick tip up on each, especially to first time users or purchasers:

            "Sprays": They are great in concentrating formula on a subject. Beware of others standing nearby, as the cone area does increase with distance. There will be a liquid residue afterwards, so your hands will get contaminated. Drawbacks: You will get some form of contamination when dealing with a subject that has been exposed. Using around others is a concern as it does spread and tend to go all over places.

            "Foams": Excellent indoors, if you dont want area contamination. Foams have gotten better with "throw back" possibilities. Its nearly impossible to throw back as it disolves very quickly on the skin. Foam does saturate heavily, so eyes closed and mouth closed wont stop it. It iwll run in one way or another. Drawbacks: It is not useful if you get a gust of wind outside, as the stream moves with the air.

            "Foggers":Great to use when in a large "outdoor" fight situation. It has the streaming capapbility of standrad spray, but will also choke out every one. Including the agent controller. Drawbacks: Never use indoors, IMO. I cant imagine how long it will take to decontaminate a room or facility, as it will go into the duct work. Also, leave windows down on cruiser when transporting. Foggers will continue to let loose with the odor, that can be irritating to eyes and throat, after exposure, and to all around exposed subject.
            Deputy Sheriff

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Mall Director
              MK9 "Fogger":WOW, what a item! If you ever had the chance to play around with MK 4 units, the MK9 is different. It has a kick when you press the button, so hold the handle firmly. It does "spray", heavily, everywhere, all over the place. It had a wide oval pattern, and layed it on thick. The MK 4 had an acutal round cone pattern, where the MK 9 had an "oblong" pattern. The fogger is a very high yeilding irratant. When opened up, it kicked off with very noticable pressure. Immediately, eyes started burning. Choking was the strongest effect. No real skin irritation, unless sprayed directly at person. Then it had the same effects as standard spray, except that it coated much better, and thicker, so air and water had a harder time penatrating. It does get into everything.
              YES, I love the MK-9, thats what we use at the prison, awsom stuff!!!!!!!

              Comment


              • #8
                Ahh yes, I am sure you do enjoy it! LOL!

                Now, I am sure you also more than likely have another funtoy in your arsenol of OC impliments, like the MK-42.

                We havent had a chance to test out that one yet, but from the footage I have of it, I am not sure I want to be in the same county when it kicks off!
                Deputy Sheriff

                Comment


                • #9
                  Alas, we're unable to even carry MK 4 up here, with the gram restriction. I carried a MK 4 can in Florida, perferred it over the MK 3 can. I've carried Def Tec (Yellow CA forumlation, it sucks), MSI 10% (LE version), MSI OC Foam (kekekeke), Bodyguard LE 10% (Almost useless! The can is under so much pressure that the actuator button won't depress easily), Sabre Red 10%, and Sabre CS/OC 10%.

                  Oh, and I've hit people with the can of OC before. That's why I carried a MK 4 can, it made a good improvised impact weapon to get distance.
                  Some Kind of Commando Leader

                  "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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                  • #10
                    Thats funny you mention that you have implimented using the can itself as a protective device, as in training, that is one of the designs of the can, to with stand nominal impact to be used as such! LOL!

                    I agree with you that the MK-3 is not preferable. The burst ratio is like 3 good shots, then your done. I was impressed with the MK-4, as it is a bigger striking device as well as 10-12 good saturating bursts.

                    We are finally switching over to Body Guard LE, as it is the same exact thing as First Defense, same manufactorer, just half the cost, twice the amount.

                    This reminds me.. I found that Body Guard is an LE "formulation" as it is the same exact thing as First Defence, made by Defensive Laboratories. The difference between the two, is that BG holds nearly twice as much, and where FD average cost is $20 a can, BG is $9 a can. I had wondered why if it was the same thing, and BG had more chemical, then why is it half the price of FD as it holds more? It is marketing. Body Guard LE is made for bulk departmental purchases, and kind of a kudo's to PD for using Federal Laboratories products. After I found this out, I was on the phone to Def-Tec immediately.

                    Sadly, $500 was already dropped in our last bulk buy, so I couldnt return it and switch! Arrr, lesson learned!
                    Deputy Sheriff

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Streetwise?

                      Can you provide me information about an OC spray my friend came up with?

                      Printed information on container; Streetwise Security Products. 17% Streetwise. Red Hot Pepper Spray. Contents: Oleoresin Capsicum, Expires 12-2011.

                      It is about a 1.5 oz. container.

                      17% seems awful potent to me for security use. Not really sure what Florida considers maximum %.

                      Any information appreciated.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Spray

                        Will do. (EDIT: Went ahead and conducted some research)....
                        Last edited by Mall Director; 07-24-2006, 04:04 AM. Reason: Conducted research
                        Deputy Sheriff

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mh892
                          Can you provide me information about an OC spray my friend came up with?

                          Printed information on container; Streetwise Security Products. 17% Streetwise. Red Hot Pepper Spray. Contents: Oleoresin Capsicum, Expires 12-2011.

                          It is about a 1.5 oz. container.

                          17% seems awful potent to me for security use. Not really sure what Florida considers maximum %.

                          Any information appreciated.
                          So far, with what I have found.. The MSDS sheet on this product is hard to find, but I located it.

                          The reason it rates at 17%, is that it is not a OC (Oleoresin Capsicum) stand alone. The composition follows at 3% OC (Oleoresin Capsicum), and 3% CS (Orthoclorobenzalmalonitrile). The combination of these three ingrediants is what gives it a longer SHU, but the rating for it is still 2 Million SHU. Its more than an irritant, its also "Membrane Irritant" and causes swelling in the nasal passages for short durations. The residual effects of these chemicals will include increased amounts of sinus release. The heat effects are the same as standard OC sprays. Its the duration that is different. Because it has CS in its composition, it remains on the body long after exposure, and even with water and air decontamination. Other aspects to a combo spray like this, is that it stains clothing, and does not wash out with just water. You will need to wash in laundry, by itself, with soap a few times. The clothes will hold the irritant for a period of time, just as any other stain.

                          The purpose to combination sprays, such as this, is that CS by itself, takes 5-30 seconds to take effect, where OC can take only a couple seconds.

                          CS is not consumable, it that is of concern, and the product you requested, has an actual "First Aid" packet that comes with it, or should as described in the brochure.

                          Other side effects of CS exposure, are groin pains, arm pit pains, and unlike OC, CS will permanantly destroy contact lenses.

                          The projectant of "StreetWise Pepper Spray", is not disclosed. I am concerned about this.

                          The severe side effects of CS exposure are risk for respiratory compromise or asphyxiation, according to the Department of Justice.

                          I am not bashing CS or CN, as it is great for its uses, but CS and CN are also flammable. THey are not EDW (Electronically Deployed Weapon) safe.

                          IMO: I would stay away from it. Its a no-name brand, that has chemical solvent carrier compositions, and in court, will kill you, especially when operating in the security industry. The damage CS and CN can do to personal effects, such as clothing and contact lenses, can possibly be charged to you. Other problem I had with StreetWise, they do not provide a LOT Production sheet upon request. FOX, Sabre, Def-Tech, United Chemical all do, in order to provide court action against you as another safety step.

                          I will continue to follow up with some calls to this company again tomarrow!
                          Deputy Sheriff

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thank you for the info on Streetwise. Looks like it is a product for animal control only.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              LOL, I am sure it works very well.. Its just something I wouldnt use in my department. I am not a big fan of any solvent compositioned spray that can cause me headache later.

                              I researched the laws for Florida, and from what I have found, Florida keeps the Federal Standard as their basis, meaning nothing above 5.5 Million SHU in Heat ratings. Though, almost all manufactors product under this limit, so you are safe to go!
                              Deputy Sheriff

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