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  • Mall Director
    replied
    I let Bull know about the results from sabre red, and will post them tomarrow, as well as FOX. We tested both products this week, and I will post a thread on the results!

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Hehe... ASP's world headquarters is like a 4 hour drive for me. I know how that is, when I finally break down, I'm going up there and finding some "discontinued" items, like the ASP P9 Kubaton. Its a "control tool," but its also, well... Its cute. Its a little keychain ASP that extends and locks. Oh, and some key defenders. And the ASP endcap that has the silver ring on the bottom, the one that looks pretty and nobody sells.

    Yes, please do. As I said, it would be interesting to see the SHU on the new X2, since the MSI brands are hotter than the DefTec, and the DefTec is purposefully made in low concentration.

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  • Mall Director
    replied
    P.S.: On the X2 Product, I searched around, and need to contact the manufactorer and get them to email me some more info, and if you would like I can get it posted. The really nice thing is they are located in Casper Wy, and I make a few stops up there for pick up as if you purchase in bulk you get one heck of a deal!

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  • Mall Director
    replied
    The EDW (electronicallt deployed weapons) are an interesting topic. I have been approached by our police department as to purchasing their older models, ad they recieved new models. I himmed and hawwed about it for a while, as to wondering if it was a carrier ability item. I am still not sure on it, as I havent really taken the time or interest to find out about it. I can just see that purchasing cartridges will be a fun cost to justify. I did comply with the chemical agents and EDW's compliance issue, even though I was not required to, just for extra safety when it comes to litigation under use in assistance with the deployment of an EDW.

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Originally posted by Mall Director
    Ouch, even with a national cetification? You arent permitted to carry that amount? There has to be some way around this one! I know most states "state" that you are permitted to carry only so much OC in the way of a personal defense, but when it comes to the private asset protection sector, and with certification, then it is permittable to carry larger quantities.

    Is this possible in your location?
    The only exceptions made in most of our laws is for "public officers" and "public employees." Wisconsin Statute entertains a Private Security, Police, or Peace Officer, and makes sure that every reference to a peace officer is derived from "public employee."

    Certification is only required by Department of Regulation and Licensing under "all security persons must be trained in the use of weapons or restraints" to protect against untrained persons using them. Certification is as simple as the company showing how to use the spray before authorizing a person to wear or deploy it.

    Remember, in the private sector, any citizen my purchase pepper spray and use it without certification or training. Many states treat private security personnel as private citizens who's occupation requires governmental oversight. They don't care what certifications you have, except that you have some "training" to protect the public against your negligent use of a product when providing services.

    Another thing is that only the military and public police may carry electric weapons of any kind.
    Last edited by N. A. Corbier; 07-08-2006, 02:53 AM.

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  • Mall Director
    replied
    Ouch, even with a national cetification? You arent permitted to carry that amount? There has to be some way around this one! I know most states "state" that you are permitted to carry only so much OC in the way of a personal defense, but when it comes to the private asset protection sector, and with certification, then it is permittable to carry larger quantities.

    Is this possible in your location?

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Wisconsin limits how much OC we can carry, as well as how much the canister can be filled. So, while Body Guard (They used to be someone else, till Armor Holdings bought them too...) is a bigger can... If its over 60 grams, its a felony to carry in my state.

    Leave a comment:


  • Charger
    replied
    300k... Wow... Yea I stick with what my initial instructor taught me on it... If it isn't at LEAST 2 mil SHU I won't touch it... I want pure unadulterated stopping power.. (that sounded wrong, I know.. lol) So I stick with the Punch II that he recommended... Although I may have to switch soon, as it's becoming increasingly harder to find these days...

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  • Mall Director
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    Do you know what the SHU rating on X2 is? I used to carry DefTec products, mostly MSI OC Foam in 10% and Defense Technologies 10% Spray (Yellow CA Can).

    The DefTec SHU is only in the mid 300,000s, where the MSI series from DefTec/Federal Labs is in the million five. Fox Lab's is putting out five point three million.

    I switched to Sabre Red, which is at 2 million SHU with 10% OC. I'd carry MSI, but no way I'd carry Defense Technologies except in the X2 (Which has a higher SHU rating than 300,000).

    Bigdog reported that an MSI/Defense Technologies Instructor noted that Sabre with its 2,000,000 SHU is "too hot," and "excessive force." My counter to that was that higher heat = quicker incapacitation, and since we use OC against aggressive or combative subjects, we need quick incapacitation to prevent them from injuring us, another victim, or themselves further.

    i.e. I don't want to have to beat this guy down cause the OC didn't work.
    I will have to return to my office and get all the statistical info for you on it, as I really read up on each product prior to choosing.I will say, that after checking into Fox products, I wasnt pleased that a solvent was used in its delivery system. I prefer all natural, as I am in a sue happy area, and when I claim all food grade, lawsuits go out the window.

    Another neat thing I recently discovered, is after having purchased a ton of 10% Foam in First Defense, Defensive Technologies, I found out Defensive Technologies makes another model of "Body Guard" which the same canister, say a MK IV, holds nearly twice as much as the First Defense, and uses the same exact composition, but at half the price. I wondered for the longest time how it could be cheaper if it was the saem solution as First Defense but twice as much. The I read the order form, and its nomenclature starts out with "LE", which after researching, I purchased general designed defensive spray, while Body Guards "LE" was composed for the "Law Enforcement" agencies. They go through more than a Security Agency, and get a discount, and benefits by the manufactorer. I then switched to Body Guard, and dont have to replace cans as often, and when I do, its half the cost.

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  • Mall Director
    replied
    Originally posted by HouseEnforcer
    So, say someone is not effected by OC in the reactive sense. We've seen it a million times on Scary Police Videos and such where a PC is emptying can after can on a guy and he just gets more hostile. Would a higher SHU drop someone who is still unaffected by OC?
    Under most tactical training scenerios, when you use the chemical defense agent, and is ineffective with your subject, after a repeated attempt, it is then deemed unnecessary to continue to use the spray against the subject. In my own experience, I have had a few subjects, even when exposed to a hot compound or projectant that we use, and it is not effecting the subject, we stop attempting to use, and upgrade the amount of force necessary to control the subject. It does happen. Spray is not 100% effective. No one tool is. But it is a tool worth having rather than not having.

    Another misconception of Chemical Defense Agents: It work immediately. If you ever undergo training for certification, you will find that on a certifiable training program, you have to be "exposed" to the agent yourself. This assists you in two major ways:

    1) Understanding that the agent does not work the second it touches you or the subject, but has a minor delay before the burn takes on its charactoristics.

    2) How to operate under the effects of the agent yourself.

    With these two factors, you begin to understand how to properly apply such a device in your needs. This also bring up why I selected Foam over Spray in another reason why. Foam will coat the subject in a heavy blanket of substance. If for any reason the actual burning effect of the spray does not effect the subject, then I have successfully blinded the subject, allowing a safer means of controlling the subject.

    Mostly, almost all sprays are blinding. It does cause temporary blindness, which gives you the advantage.

    The main charactoristics of a Chemical Defense Agent, are to cause blindness, confusion and anxiety on the subject. I was almost able to work through the pain of the heat when I was exposed, but the blindness started taking effect, and loosing my sight, compounded with the pain, and choking caused me to panic at first, and become disoriented. I am sure it would'nt take anyone more than a second to overcome me after being exposed, as I was more concerned about getting my sight back, instead of aggressing. The choking effect also slows a subjet down, as they loose fresh air immediately, and begin to struggle more with breathing.

    The other nice facet to spray, is that any subject you encounter, that is "hard core" in his criminal nature, has at some point in his/her life been exposed to spray before, and the memory of the unpleasantry is enough when you draw your canister out, to remind them again of how much "lack of fun" it was, and then become cooperative.

    Any time I have drawn and been ready to use, I send out my warning, and then think to myself and even sometimes express to the subject that I really dont wish this upon them, as I have undergone it, and I would rather a root canal with out novicane. I really do not like exposing anyone to it, and especially my own people under training, as the memory kicks in, and I cringe at how fun it was for me, LOL!

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  • HouseEnforcer
    replied
    So, say someone is not effected by OC in the reactive sense. We've seen it a million times on Scary Police Videos and such where a PC is emptying can after can on a guy and he just gets more hostile. Would a higher SHU drop someone who is still unaffected by OC?

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Do you know what the SHU rating on X2 is? I used to carry DefTec products, mostly MSI OC Foam in 10% and Defense Technologies 10% Spray (Yellow CA Can).

    The DefTec SHU is only in the mid 300,000s, where the MSI series from DefTec/Federal Labs is in the million five. Fox Lab's is putting out five point three million.

    I switched to Sabre Red, which is at 2 million SHU with 10% OC. I'd carry MSI, but no way I'd carry Defense Technologies except in the X2 (Which has a higher SHU rating than 300,000).

    Bigdog reported that an MSI/Defense Technologies Instructor noted that Sabre with its 2,000,000 SHU is "too hot," and "excessive force." My counter to that was that higher heat = quicker incapacitation, and since we use OC against aggressive or combative subjects, we need quick incapacitation to prevent them from injuring us, another victim, or themselves further.

    i.e. I don't want to have to beat this guy down cause the OC didn't work.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mall Director
    replied
    Originally posted by Bridgegate
    Welcome, Mall Director! Nice to know I won't be the only spray instructor around anymore to give the pros & cons...

    Out of curiosity, what made you guys decide to go with the 10% instead of 5%? My original instructor highly recommended a very high SHU for the stopping power, with a low percentage so the exposure doesn't last as long, and open you up to liability for frivilous (sp?) "cruel & unusual punishment" lawsuits..

    Come to think of it, if you've gone through some of the federal courses you've probably met my instructor... He's the LE Sgt. from Oregon who subjected himself to over 300+ sprays for that scientific study a while back to prove there's no long-term effects... (And still gets sprayed on a regular basis to keep the study up-to-date)
    Nice to meet you to, a fellow instructor! We are not alone! I have gone through DOD training and civilian, or national certification through ArmorHolding. As your Instructor stated, a high SHU is ideal, such as the new X2 by Defensive Technologies, which packs alot, as for the percentage rating of 10%, being that it is 100% food grade, construing it as "cruel and unusual" would be difficult, as the heat rating remains the same as a 5% or 5.5%. Crule and unusual typically falls under overexposure, such as in restraints, or repeated exposure when an effect has made impact. The 10% I selected for my department was made with some factors in mind. Safety of course, but in a manner in which it has a higher percentage of effectiveness with a smaller dosage, so I am, nor my staff, is having to repeatedly "expose" the subject to the agent in order to gain control of the situation (under policies of course). A lower feild of effectiveness may require more agent being used, or in longer bursts, which if heavily fought in lawsuit by the subject, could be construde as "cruel and unusual". To continually expose a subject to a spray that is having a minimal effective rating can cause more issues, than to expose them to a more effective spray, ending the chance of harm to self, subject or others.

    In the "PepperFoam" due to its stream control, the contamination of the "scene" is already controlled. Mis-Aiming the Projectant causes cross contamination, and issues. But a strong delivery of a high yeilding heat to a specific area, immobilizes a subject to the point of discontinued resistance, with minimal use of projectant (ie 10%), can further prevent damage to you, your staff, and innocent bystandards.

    Most law enforcement prefer a 5.5% "spray" over a "foam". And for good reason. They operate mostly outdoors, and in a slight wind or gust, foam travel and direction is effected, where "spray" targets a larger area.

    I also selected 10% over 5% as to limit the need to "saturate" a subject in needless spray or foam, to gain control. This used in court upholds the justificaiton of higher heat.

    Now for secondary, my staff also carries X2, which would have the equivilant of 20%. Its hot. I was subjected to all forms and products, and dont wish the X2 on my biggest enemy, as decon took forever. I do however, have the X2 as backup, in the event the Foam is in an ineffective environment or the 10% has no effect on a subject, such as one under the influence of a substance. After you expose your subject to a lighter grade product, and it has minimal to no effect, it is reasonable to assume a higher degree of product is needed, and if on hand is suggestable, especially when operating around an armed subject, or a subject acting above or beyond normal human function.

    The absolute biggest key to subject exposure to Chemical Agents, is decontamination, and quickly. It isnt hard... Remove them from the area of contamination. Too easy, and you have already started First Aid, which demonstrates in court- compassion and aid to a resisting subject. Even though with foam, there isnt really a contaminated area (except the exposed subject) still asssume the first step to decontaminating your subject. I have won every time, with out failure by jury and advocate, when I follow the steps and procedures in use and carry of a Chemical Defense Agent.

    The third aid to contamination is very helpful as well. Talk your subject through the process and calm your subject. Most of the time, I receive thank you's afterwards for helping them, even though I was the one to expose them. Go figure!

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  • Charger
    replied
    Welcome, Mall Director! Nice to know I won't be the only spray instructor around anymore to give the pros & cons...

    Out of curiosity, what made you guys decide to go with the 10% instead of 5%? My original instructor highly recommended a very high SHU for the stopping power, with a low percentage so the exposure doesn't last as long, and open you up to liability for frivilous (sp?) "cruel & unusual punishment" lawsuits..

    Come to think of it, if you've gone through some of the federal courses you've probably met my instructor... He's the LE Sgt. from Oregon who subjected himself to over 300+ sprays for that scientific study a while back to prove there's no long-term effects... (And still gets sprayed on a regular basis to keep the study up-to-date)

    Leave a comment:


  • HouseEnforcer
    replied
    Thanks for the info Mall Director. I used to work in a mall and let me tell you the pepper foam would have been very useful. Of course, security guards in Ontario cannot use pepper spray, especially that 10X stuff...wow.
    We have used this Dye Witness for years and there has never been a problem. On the plus, if the client somehow disengages and runs off, he's not getting to far with a bright green face.

    Good advice N. A. Corbier, the shock value is what it's all about...unless the take down is quick, were gonna have some problems. Oohhh man, usually these things go down at night, so, once back near the office where they can see their face in a mirror, they just loose it. lol.

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