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  • #31
    Originally posted by Minneapolis Security View Post
    I'm no fan of the uniform restrictions either, however I think getting the vehicle color law changed would be much easier. They really have no justification for regulating the color of our vehicles.
    There would be justification IF police vehicles were being required to adhere to a specific color scheme, or narrow set of such color schemes, that would be recognizable to the public as "a police vehicle". This justification would then obviously be avoiding confusion in the public mind between security and police vehicles.

    However, when police vehicles of different agencies can be just about "any color", as is the case here, there certainly can be NO reasonable expectation in the public mind that a police vehicle would "look a certain way". As such, the only possible justification for regulating the color of security vehicles to differentiate them from police vehicles completely collapses on its face and is probably very susceptible to legal challenge. The state cannot usurp to itself the vast majority of prerogatives in such a way without justification.

    It is as if the state had said:

    "Police uniforms shall be constructed of cotton, polyester, wool, nylon, rayon, or some blend of the aforegoing materials. Security uniforms can be anything else".

    You'd have a choice of wrapping a plastic shower curtain around yourself, plastering newspapers all over your body or wearing a rubber diving suit.

    Just because some elected dink can get a law passed by some other elected dorks doesn't mean the law has any legal merit. Legislatures are always passing bills that don't pass the laugh test.

    The challenge here would be based on requiring the state to show that it has a compelling interest to make such regulations in the first place, and I think I can double-dog gare-on-tee you that the state would fail to make that case in the way this law is presently written. It is a very badly written law anyway because it is too imprecise in its terms (names of colors, use of word "predominantly", etc.). It looks like it was written by Howdy Doody.
    Last edited by SecTrainer; 09-28-2007, 01:12 PM.
    "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

    "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

    "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

    "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

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    • #32
      Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
      There would be justification IF police vehicles were being required to adhere to a specific color scheme, or narrow set of such color schemes, that would be recognizable to the public as "a police vehicle". This justification would then obviously be avoiding confusion in the public mind between security and police vehicles.

      However, when police vehicles of different agencies can be just about "any color", as is the case here, there certainly can be NO reasonable expectation in the public mind that a police vehicle would "look a certain way". As such, the only possible justification for regulating the color of security vehicles to differentiate them from police vehicles completely collapses on its face and is probably very susceptible to legal challenge. The state cannot usurp to itself the vast majority of prerogatives in such a way without justification.

      It is as if the state had said:

      "Police uniforms shall be constructed of cotton, polyester, wool, nylon, rayon, or some blend of the aforegoing materials. Security uniforms can be anything else".

      You'd have a choice of wrapping a plastic shower curtain around yourself, plastering newspapers all over your body or wearing a rubber diving suit.

      Just because some elected dink can get a law passed by some other elected dorks doesn't mean the law has any legal merit. Legislatures are always passing bills that don't pass the laugh test.

      The challenge here would be based on requiring the state to show that it has a compelling interest to make such regulations in the first place, and I think I can double-dog gare-on-tee you that the state would fail to make that case in the way this law is presently written. It is a very badly written law anyway because it is too imprecise in its terms (names of colors, use of word "predominantly", etc.). It looks like it was written by Howdy Doody.

      Defiantly a vague law, name of colors doesn't specify if a shade of a color is also forbidden (tan,gold,...) who knows what they mean by predominately, 51%???
      ATTN. SPECOPS AND GECKO45 my secret username is CIDDECEP and I am your S2. My authorization code is Six Wun Quebec Oscar Fife. Your presence here is tactically dangerous and compromises our overall mission parameter. Cease and desist all activity on this board. Our “enemies” are deft at computer hacking and may trace you back to our primary locale. You have forced me to compromise my situation to protect your vulnerable flank. This issue will be addressed later.

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      • #33
        I was working for Midwest Patrol Back in the early 80's when the cops pushed the uniform color, company names, and car colors through the Minnesota Legislature. After the new law passed, we received notice that having the word "patrol" in our name was now illegal.
        Midwest Patrol sued the state, and got their name Grandfathered in. A couple other outfits - Metropolitan Patrol for one - rolled over and changed "patrol" to "protection." So now Midwest Patrol is the only outfit left in Minnesota who can display the word "patrol" on their vehicles. They don't use the name Midwest Patrol much anymore, and use GSSC (General Security Services Corp) since they have accounts nationwide now. The Northern Region, which includes Duluth, St. Cloud, Brainerd, Fargo, Wisconsin, and Michigan still uses Midwest Patrol.
        Personally, I like Midwest Patrol better than GSSC. Every time I get new uniforms, I rip off the GSSC patches and sew on the old-style MWP patch. I still wear the Midwest Patrol supervisors badge I was issued in 1980! I also have a MWP Patrolman Badge in my collection, which was also made illegal by the law. (The company retired the Patrolman badge in 1979, after we hired our first female patrol officer and she complained it was sexist.)
        When the uniform laws were being pushed through, they had a provision that all uniforms would have to have the word "Security" on the back in 4" letters. Midwest Patrol went to committee hearings with a sample uniform shirt - purple with pink trim, with yellow lettering on the back - to illustrate how stupid we'd look if the cops got all the good colors. (They tried to take black away from us!) The state pretty much took away every decent color except white, black and janitor gray. At least we managed to beat the requirement to wear a sign on our backs!
        "Striking terrific terror in the hearts of criminals everywhere" Since 1977.

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        • #34
          I take it back. If this was going on, the uniform color law was specifically designed to make security personnel "not look like police," by ensuring that they wore no color that could be "confused" by the public, and ensuring that the words Security or Security Guard are prominently displayed.

          One of the Canadian provinces requires that all security personnel in uniform have the words "Security Guard" in 2" print on the front and back of their uniforms, at all times. It also removes some of the rights a citizen has as far as carrying weapons or making citizen's arrests - in house can do both, contract registered guards may do neither.
          Some Kind of Commando Leader

          "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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          • #35
            Do they also require SECURITY in both Frnech and Engish on the shirts?
            ~Super Ninja Sniper~
            Corbier's Commandos

            Nemo me impune lacessit

            Grammical and Spelling errors may occur form time to time. Yoov bin worned

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            • #36
              Originally posted by ValleyOne View Post
              Do they also require SECURITY in both Frnech and Engish on the shirts?
              No, 8 of Canadas 10 provinces operate mainly in English on the provincial level, 1 in French & only 1 (New Brunswick-Nouveau Brunswick) bilingually.

              Quebec requires Agent de Sécurité on the front. Some areas of Ontario where a lot of French people live (our capital, Ottawa for example) have both.
              I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
              Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Badge714 View Post
                I was working for Midwest Patrol Back in the early 80's when the cops pushed the uniform color, company names, and car colors through the Minnesota Legislature. After the new law passed, we received notice that having the word "patrol" in our name was now illegal.
                Midwest Patrol sued the state, and got their name Grandfathered in. A couple other outfits - Metropolitan Patrol for one - rolled over and changed "patrol" to "protection." So now Midwest Patrol is the only outfit left in Minnesota who can display the word "patrol" on their vehicles. They don't use the name Midwest Patrol much anymore, and use GSSC (General Security Services Corp) since they have accounts nationwide now. The Northern Region, which includes Duluth, St. Cloud, Brainerd, Fargo, Wisconsin, and Michigan still uses Midwest Patrol.
                Personally, I like Midwest Patrol better than GSSC. Every time I get new uniforms, I rip off the GSSC patches and sew on the old-style MWP patch. I still wear the Midwest Patrol supervisors badge I was issued in 1980! I also have a MWP Patrolman Badge in my collection, which was also made illegal by the law. (The company retired the Patrolman badge in 1979, after we hired our first female patrol officer and she complained it was sexist.)
                When the uniform laws were being pushed through, they had a provision that all uniforms would have to have the word "Security" on the back in 4" letters. Midwest Patrol went to committee hearings with a sample uniform shirt - purple with pink trim, with yellow lettering on the back - to illustrate how stupid we'd look if the cops got all the good colors. (They tried to take black away from us!) The state pretty much took away every decent color except white, black and janitor gray. At least we managed to beat the requirement to wear a sign on our backs!
                Remember, in Minnesota the color restrictions only apply to armed officers. Unarmed can wear any color they choose. Although I have seen security forces get away with being armed and wearing a prohibited color.

                Cops can be pretty elitist. If they think you are trying to drive a car that looks too much like theirs or wear a uniform that looks too much like theirs, some can get their nose really out of joint. I remember a Mendota Heights cop that had it out for Pinkerton for driving a blue pick up truck with the Pinkerton graphics all over it. Nobody in their right mind would have confused that heap with any sort of a law enforcement vehicle.

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                • #38
                  I still wonder how Securitas has red lights to the front on white vehicles. That makes them, under MN law, an emergency vehicle. Red is the "emergency vehicle" color, no other color is.

                  Which is odd to me.
                  Some Kind of Commando Leader

                  "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
                    I still wonder how Securitas has red lights to the front on white vehicles. That makes them, under MN law, an emergency vehicle. Red is the "emergency vehicle" color, no other color is.

                    Which is odd to me.

                    Call 'em up and ask!

                    I wonder if they have any local/state/government contracts that stipulate that arrangement of colors?
                    ~Super Ninja Sniper~
                    Corbier's Commandos

                    Nemo me impune lacessit

                    Grammical and Spelling errors may occur form time to time. Yoov bin worned

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by ValleyOne View Post
                      Call 'em up and ask!

                      I wonder if they have any local/state/government contracts that stipulate that arrangement of colors?
                      Find out who issues approvals in your state for emergency vehicles. These Securitas units might be equipped and authorized to provide medical response (sometimes called "medical aid units" to differentiate them from ambulances) and are thereby approved on that basis for red lights, which are to be used only to respond to such situations.

                      In some states, the state patrol approves all emergency lights. In others, different agencies are responsible for approval based on the reason (medical, fire, emergency management, etc.) The point is...someone had to approve the Securitas light scheme, and it shouldn't be too hard to find out who and why. Any citizen should be entitled to make such an inquiry from the state once you find out who to ask.
                      "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                      "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                      "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                      "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by CorpSec View Post
                        Remember, in Minnesota the color restrictions only apply to armed officers. Unarmed can wear any color they choose. Although I have seen security forces get away with being armed and wearing a prohibited color.

                        Cops can be pretty elitist. If they think you are trying to drive a car that looks too much like theirs or wear a uniform that looks too much like theirs, some can get their nose really out of joint. I remember a Mendota Heights cop that had it out for Pinkerton for driving a blue pick up truck with the Pinkerton graphics all over it. Nobody in their right mind would have confused that heap with any sort of a law enforcement vehicle.
                        When I worked for Pinkerton in 2000, we had our blue-ish gray Jeep Cherokee impounded for having "Security Patrol" markings. I'm not 100% sure which dept it was, but I think it was Brooklyn Park.

                        Any security officer in Minnesota who carries any weapon, including nightsticks, asps, handcuffs, mace, tasers, etc. are considered "armed officers."

                        When I was the Security Director for the University Medical Center in Hibbing Minnesota, we wore light blue shirts and dark blue pants. We carried handcuffs and ASPs. The Hibbing cops didn't care. I was at the hospital last month, and the guards are wearing all black now.
                        Last edited by Badge714; 09-30-2007, 01:34 PM.
                        "Striking terrific terror in the hearts of criminals everywhere" Since 1977.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Badge714 View Post
                          When I worked for Pinkerton in 2000, we had our blue-ish gray Jeep Cherokee impounded for having "Security Patrol" markings. I'm not 100% sure which dept it was, but I think it was Brooklyn Park.

                          Any security officer in Minnesota who carries any weapon, including nightsticks, asps, handcuffs, mace, tasers, etc. are considered "armed officers."

                          When I was the Security Director for the University Medical Center in Hibbing Minnesota, we wore light blue shirts and dark blue pants. We carried handcuffs and ASPs. The Hibbing cops didn't care. I was at the hospital last month, and the guards are wearing all black now.

                          That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, the term "patrol" is not prohibited.

                          "State Patrol" and "Highway Patrol" cannot be used. But patrol is fine.

                          326.3384 Prohibited acts.
                          Subdivision 1. Prohibition. No license holder or
                          employee of a license holder shall, in a manner that implies
                          that the person is an employee or agent of a governmental
                          agency, display on a badge, identification card, emblem,
                          vehicle, uniform, stationery, or in advertising for private
                          detective or protective agent services:
                          (1) the words "public safety," "police," "constable,"
                          "highway patrol," "state patrol," "sheriff," "trooper," or "law
                          enforcement"; or “public safety”; or
                          ATTN. SPECOPS AND GECKO45 my secret username is CIDDECEP and I am your S2. My authorization code is Six Wun Quebec Oscar Fife. Your presence here is tactically dangerous and compromises our overall mission parameter. Cease and desist all activity on this board. Our “enemies” are deft at computer hacking and may trace you back to our primary locale. You have forced me to compromise my situation to protect your vulnerable flank. This issue will be addressed later.

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                          • #43
                            The uniform statute considers armed security guards as "carrying a weapon."

                            The Protective Agents Act considers it a firearm. I found that funny, since the uniform statute also redefined what a Protective Agent or Security Guard was, to include a few other things.

                            Since coming here, I have learned quite a bit about MN law, and most of it is patchwork concerning "police" statutes like the uniform and vehicle statute. You can tell they tried to unify the majority using the Protective Services Act, but some other stuff was done with security as an afterthought.
                            Some Kind of Commando Leader

                            "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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                            • #44
                              NSW Regs - Similar Police Markings on Vehicles

                              In NSW we are prohibited from have a checkered (plaid for you yanks) band around any part of our vehicles and uniforms. The word police cannot be used nor can the ranks in our police be used without prior authorisation (not our transit officer (police wannabes) use similar but unique ranks and no one is permitted to use the police uniform shades of blue (or khaki in the outback).

                              Running my company patrol vehicles we stuck with black as it looked good and covered up dents with a black marker (liquid paper is good for white paint too). With silver lettering and graphics our vehicles stood out from the generic sub-contractors with SECURITY written on the side of the car with stuck on signage from KINKO's.

                              Our uniforms were working blues until the police phased in trials of cargo (BDU's) in the early 2000's and I went to black (hides gravy stains too) to distinguish us from other firms. Selling up the business I was pleased to see the new owners continue with the same colour schemes.
                              "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer" Sun Tzu

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