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How Much to Charge a Client???

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  • #16
    Originally posted by davis002 View Post
    $15 is the hourly salary, not the bill rate.
    That's what I meant.....I was meaning $15 an hour being assigned to residential properties.
    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by BadBoynMD View Post
      That's what I meant.....I was meaning $15 an hour being assigned to residential properties.
      So, armed security officers assigned to residential make $18-22 per hour? If that's the case, I can understand that... Maryland has a higher cost of living, so I can see the wage being higher.
      "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

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      • #18
        Originally posted by davis002 View Post
        So, armed security officers assigned to residential make $18-22 per hour? If that's the case, I can understand that... Maryland has a higher cost of living, so I can see the wage being higher.
        I took it as the bill rate was $18-22 and the officers made $8-11.

        There are so many variables on what to charge someone and it is hard for people that do not know the specific market to know where to even begin.

        I would say to negotiate a rate that is going to allow you to pay officers a rate that will inspire retention. Constant turnover will do nothing but hurt your bottom line. If your officers are going to be armed and confronting/arresting people as opposed to observing and reporting, that is cause to raise the rate even higher.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by CorpSec View Post
          I took it as the bill rate was $18-22 and the officers made $8-11.
          That's kinda what I figured too, but wasn't quite sure when I first read it.
          "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

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          • #20
            I took it as the bill rate was $18-22 and the officers made $8-11.
            That's what I meant.....
            "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by BadBoynMD View Post
              That's what I meant.....
              I apologize, I somehow misunderstood. I guess I'm a little disappointed that even with a higher cost of living in Baltimore, that armed private security gets paid so little when compared to Minneapolis. I don't know the average for armed security in Minneapolis, but I think it is somewhere around $12.
              "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

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              • #22
                Originally posted by davis002 View Post
                I apologize, I somehow misunderstood. I guess I'm a little disappointed that even with a higher cost of living in Baltimore, that armed private security gets paid so little when compared to Minneapolis. I don't know the average for armed security in Minneapolis, but I think it is somewhere around $12.
                No worries, and it's pretty pathetic. The only way you will see $14 and above is if you're working a Fed Gov't site. Another way to make somewhat decent money is to be "cool" with the owner or top level management. To retain officers companies out here are resorting to paying 40 hours taxed..and 40 hours under the radar. OR, my personal favorite...paying and taxing 80 hours and giving the OT under the radar. I recently heard of another company that is giving employees 1099's. Sad part is it's not like they couldn't pay more. For instance a friend of mine is pretty much runs the company. She's paid $11.50 and gets no overtime, and works pretty much 7 days a week.
                "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by BadBoynMD View Post
                  No worries, and it's pretty pathetic. The only way you will see $14 and above is if you're working a Fed Gov't site. Another way to make somewhat decent money is to be "cool" with the owner or top level management. To retain officers companies out here are resorting to paying 40 hours taxed..and 40 hours under the radar. OR, my personal favorite...paying and taxing 80 hours and giving the OT under the radar. I recently heard of another company that is giving employees 1099's. Sad part is it's not like they couldn't pay more. For instance a friend of mine is pretty much runs the company. She's paid $11.50 and gets no overtime, and works pretty much 7 days a week.
                  This is really pretty astonishing that companies would take the risk of breaking the law (and the penalties for this sort of thing can be E-NORmous) rather than to simply adjust their pricing to reflect the realities of what they need to pay and retain officers. There would be no competitive disadvantage here to explain this because all companies would presumably have to adjust their rates by about the same percentage if they were doing things legally. And, they should report any company that does not to the DOL and state authorities.

                  The client should be bearing this cost...not the tax payer (which is what these companies are doing - shifting the untaxed portion of their "under-the-table" payments from the client to the tax payer). Shabby. Real shabby.
                  "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                  "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                  "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                  "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
                    This is really pretty astonishing that companies would take the risk of breaking the law (and the penalties for this sort of thing can be E-NORmous) rather than to simply adjust their pricing to reflect the realities of what they need to pay and retain officers. There would be no competitive disadvantage here to explain this because all companies would presumably have to adjust their rates by about the same percentage if they were doing things legally. And, they should report any company that does not to the DOL and state authorities.

                    The client should be bearing this cost...not the tax payer (which is what these companies are doing - shifting the untaxed portion of their "under-the-table" payments from the client to the tax payer). Shabby. Real shabby.
                    Is it illegal to use 1099 employees in the security industry? In other industries subcontracting is a well established practice.
                    formerly C&A

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                    • #25
                      Kind of off topic, but the hourly rates for security are so similar to facility services contracting (janitorial, landscaping, maintenance etc.), and yet the overhead for security seems so so much lower.
                      formerly C&A

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
                        This is really pretty astonishing that companies would take the risk of breaking the law (and the penalties for this sort of thing can be E-NORmous) rather than to simply adjust their pricing to reflect the realities of what they need to pay and retain officers. There would be no competitive disadvantage here to explain this because all companies would presumably have to adjust their rates by about the same percentage if they were doing things legally. And, they should report any company that does not to the DOL and state authorities.

                        The client should be bearing this cost...not the tax payer (which is what these companies are doing - shifting the untaxed portion of their "under-the-table" payments from the client to the tax payer). Shabby. Real shabby.
                        Thing is not ALL of the employees get paid this way. You have to be a "special" employee to recieve this sort of payroll. This is also the same company that has a armed supervisor working there with knowledge of said supervisor endulging in CDS on their off time.

                        Sad thing is these knuckleheads don't realize if they get injured, they are SOL. They won't be recieving anywhere close to what they are being paid. Some don't mind the risks involved.

                        However, the funny thing is company X can afford to pay higher wages. They just simply choose not, because most people are replacable. For example one officer will patrol 4 properties. Each property would be charged lets say $15 an hour. So times that by 4 and you have $60 an hour billing out and that officer is getting $10 an hour.
                        "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by cocknaces View Post
                          Kind of off topic, but the hourly rates for security are so similar to facility services contracting (janitorial, landscaping, maintenance etc.), and yet the overhead for security seems so so much lower.
                          In certain areas, yes this can be found to be true. The overhead in security probably is lower. All you have to really furnish per officer is uniforms. In my area you may get 2-3 pairs of pants and 2-3 shirts. Maybe a badge is you're lucky. Anything else is on you. So if you're just starting out in security you can expect to pay $500 and more for duty gear. You can purchase retired police vehicles for about $2,000 - $10,000 from auctions or dealerships. Pretty sad, but true.. atleast in my area.

                          Is it illegal to use 1099 employees in the security industry? In other industries subcontracting is a well established practice.
                          Honestly, I don't think it's illegal to do so. It's basically stating you're responsible for paying your own taxes. It's also another way for the company not having to worry about workman's comp, health and other benefits. So, if you're not careful and putting money on the side you're gonna hate life come tax time. Alot of police officers use to work 1099, but most won't touch 1099 gigs anymore.
                          "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by cocknaces View Post
                            Kind of off topic, but the hourly rates for security are so similar to facility services contracting (janitorial, landscaping, maintenance etc.), and yet the overhead for security seems so so much lower.
                            If you are an armed security company, then the insurance is insanely costly.
                            "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

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                            • #29
                              There's no such thing as a 1099 "employee." There's a 1099 independent contractor, and it'd be interesting to see a security company maintain operational control over 1099s without stepping over the line and creating common law employees (which means they owe LOTS of back taxes, and the 1099s do too...) over such things as "how to do the job."
                              Some Kind of Commando Leader

                              "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by cocknaces View Post
                                Is it illegal to use 1099 employees in the security industry? In other industries subcontracting is a well established practice.
                                Sorry...you can't use "independent contractors" or "subcontractors" in our field to substitute for "employees", except for very rare situations. The IRS has published many memos regarding the requirements for a person to be an independent contractor (they must have substantial control over their work, their hours, the place where the work is done, they must have other "clients" than your company, etc....), and 99% of security jobs would definitely NOT meet the requirements.

                                Here's a plain English discussion of the IRS rules.

                                It's very costly for companies to try this little trick and lose, too...big penalties, paying the employee's back taxes, etc., etc. As you can imagine, everyone would be doing it if it were legal.

                                Subcontracting would typically be limited to some EP situations, occasional or irregular (not "long term or permanent") sorts of specialist and other consulting work, "backup" or mutual aid arrangements, etc. A one-man company could certainly subcontract with another company, but it can't be a "sham" arrangement. Each company must exist as a separate and legitimate business. The IRS looks very closely at this sort of thing.
                                Last edited by SecTrainer; 07-11-2007, 07:49 PM.
                                "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                                "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                                "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                                "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                                Comment

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