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  • Question about using trainees prior to obtaining a guard card

    Can a licensed PPO put an employee in the field as a trainee prior to the employee being approved for their guard card? The employee would use a patch that specifically identifies them as a trainee and they would not be performing any duties of a licensed security guard.

    Also if a PPO has been contracted to provide security services for a nightclub and the nightclub wants Security guards and "Hosts", do the "Hosts" need to be guard carded if they are clearly identified as "Hosts" and perform duties of a "Host" not a security guard?

    I read somewhere that if a PPO has training managers that do not work as an actual Security guard but only work as a training manager for security guards that they do not need to have a guard card either.

    This is in California. Any help with this would be appreciated

  • #2
    First, note that I'm absolutely not an expert in California security laws.

    That said, they are relatively similar to those of British Columbia. We would be permitted to employ unlicensed people as literally anything but security. They would not be permitted to work any security duties while on site, so I'm not sure why you or your client would be willing to pay for that.

    I've seen "hosts" employed in nightclubs as strictly a very light, near access control role. Obviously a grey area, so you'd want to check with your own laws, but hosts are best used in front-of-house guest services roles than actual security ones.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Caedes View Post
      First, note that I'm absolutely not an expert in California security laws.

      That said, they are relatively similar to those of British Columbia. We would be permitted to employ unlicensed people as literally anything but security. They would not be permitted to work any security duties while on site, so I'm not sure why you or your client would be willing to pay for that.

      I've seen "hosts" employed in nightclubs as strictly a very light, near access control role. Obviously a grey area, so you'd want to check with your own laws, but hosts are best used in front-of-house guest services roles than actual security ones.
      That's part of the problem with licensing security guards; many non-security jobs involve what we would consider a "security" type element. For example, hotel managers may deal with noise complaints/unruly tenants, custodians may do "door-rattling" duties, cashiers/shelf stockers may keep an eye out for/deter shoplifters, etc.

      Contrast this with many other jobs you have to be licensed to do; there are virtually no jobs that will in addition you your "regular" duties expect you to practice medicine, drive an 18 wheeler, do accounting, do engineering work, cut hair, etc..

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      • #4
        A while back here in Ontario in-house security had to be licenced, including doormen and bouncers. It also stipulated that you only have to be licenced if "security" duties were your main job task (so that the cashiers/stock people, hotel managers, custodians, etc.. didn't need to be licenced). Well, as it turns out some bars just happened to have really burly dishwashers....

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Caedes View Post
          First, note that I'm absolutely not an expert in California security laws.

          That said, they are relatively similar to those of British Columbia. We would be permitted to employ unlicensed people as literally anything but security. They would not be permitted to work any security duties while on site, so I'm not sure why you or your client would be willing to pay for that.

          I've seen "hosts" employed in nightclubs as strictly a very light, near access control role. Obviously a grey area, so you'd want to check with your own laws, but hosts are best used in front-of-house guest services roles than actual security ones.
          First off thank you for your reply.

          You mention you don't know why our client or even us would want to pay for an unlicensed security guard. This is an excellent point when you are talking about a uniformed guard at a post somewhere that requires the guard to use the stuff that is taught in the California guard card training. Unfortunately at least here in California that training has little relevance to working security in a nightclub. Some of the training actually can leave the Venue along with the Security company liable if followed. So basically what happens is the guard goes through the training and background check and then would need to wait anywhere from 4 days to 4 weeks or longer. This makes it difficult for the employee and employer for no good reason. Then once the now licensed guard, is finally able to work they really have not benefited by the training much and are no better off then they were before getting licensed.

          I'm not sure exactly when or why it changed but at one time The BSIS allowed a guard to begin working as soon as they submitted their application for a guard card.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by 5DP View Post
            First off thank you for your reply.

            You mention you don't know why our client or even us would want to pay for an unlicensed security guard. This is an excellent point when you are talking about a uniformed guard at a post somewhere that requires the guard to use the stuff that is taught in the California guard card training. Unfortunately at least here in California that training has little relevance to working security in a nightclub. Some of the training actually can leave the Venue along with the Security company liable if followed. So basically what happens is the guard goes through the training and background check and then would need to wait anywhere from 4 days to 4 weeks or longer. This makes it difficult for the employee and employer for no good reason. Then once the now licensed guard, is finally able to work they really have not benefited by the training much and are no better off then they were before getting licensed.

            I'm not sure exactly when or why it changed but at one time The BSIS allowed a guard to begin working as soon as they submitted their application for a guard card.
            I'm actually a staunch supporter of security guard licensing in concept, not necessarily in method.

            In theory, regulated training and licensing of our industry could significantly improve the standard quality of those employed in the industry, their skill sets, and training levels. I'm not sure which part of California's security training opens a nightclub to liability, but assuming that's true, it likely could open other postings and facilities to liability as well. That should be reviewed.

            I mention that I'm not necessarily supporting security training method, and to be fair, this is related to my province only (the one I am most familiar with). Our training is (at the very least, was, as I underwent it many years ago but it doesn't appear to have changed significantly) focused on very basic techniques (patrol, customer service) and primarily what you can't do as security, as opposed to what you can do.

            In your particular situation, you may be better off reaching out to those who are already licensed in California and developing an in-house training program that they participate in and sign off on upon completion.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by 5DP View Post
              Can a licensed PPO put an employee in the field as a trainee prior to the employee being approved for their guard card? The employee would use a patch that specifically identifies them as a trainee and they would not be performing any duties of a licensed security guard.

              Also if a PPO has been contracted to provide security services for a nightclub and the nightclub wants Security guards and "Hosts", do the "Hosts" need to be guard carded if they are clearly identified as "Hosts" and perform duties of a "Host" not a security guard?

              I read somewhere that if a PPO has training managers that do not work as an actual Security guard but only work as a training manager for security guards that they do not need to have a guard card either.

              This is in California. Any help with this would be appreciated
              All sorts of big and small operations of all types have unlic people who are defacto "guards", and BSIS is so backed up doing their own paperwork to notice, much less try to levy fines on a firm that has no paperwork with BSIS to begin with.

              "Hosts" and "trainee" is kinda waving a Red Flag in face of BSIS, IMO, since its the kind of thing they SAY requires a guard card, which in reality means Guard Card required if the person is employed by PPO. You could get a "host" from Labor Ready without GC and be OK, but not a "host" from a PPO w/out GC.

              Want some guards that aren't guards that can work along with GC guards and not get any guff from BSIS? Have them get 1/2hour training $29 INSTANT ISSUE "Fire Watch Cert" (NO BACKGROUND CHECK, JUST SHOW VALID ID) at local refinery safety training center and call them "fire watch".

              That is actually a pretty good idea for many posts because "Fire Watch" is more obviously "observe and report" and more client's employee friendly than traditional Rent a Cops, how are viewed as despicable snitches by most employees. Tell all the women the "Fire Watch" guy is planning to apply to Fireman Academy.

              Your local PD and Fire Dept would actually appreciate a "Fire Watch" as "host" since a big LEGIT safety issue for night-clubs is OVERCROWDING over the limit set by Fire Marshall.
              Last edited by Squid; 10-03-2017, 04:16 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Squid View Post

                All sorts of big and small operations of all types have unlic people who are defacto "guards", and BSIS is so backed up doing their own paperwork to notice, much less try to levy fines on a firm that has no paperwork with BSIS to begin with.

                "Hosts" and "trainee" is kinda waving a Red Flag in face of BSIS, IMO, since its the kind of thing they SAY requires a guard card, which in reality means Guard Card required if the person is employed by PPO. You could get a "host" from Labor Ready without GC and be OK, but not a "host" from a PPO w/out GC.

                Want some guards that aren't guards that can work along with GC guards and not get any guff from BSIS? Have them get 1/2hour training $29 INSTANT ISSUE "Fire Watch Cert" (NO BACKGROUND CHECK, JUST SHOW VALID ID) at local refinery safety training center and call them "fire watch".

                That is actually a pretty good idea for many posts because "Fire Watch" is more obviously "observe and report" and more client's employee friendly than traditional Rent a Cops, how are viewed as despicable snitches by most employees. Tell all the women the "Fire Watch" guy is planning to apply to Fireman Academy.

                Your local PD and Fire Dept would actually appreciate a "Fire Watch" as "host" since a big LEGIT safety issue for night-clubs is OVERCROWDING over the limit set by Fire Marshall.
                Well, some places in the US have "Fire Police" (firefighters with some police duties/powers). Maybe we can have "Fire Security Watch"?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Consolewatcher View Post

                  Well, some places in the US have "Fire Police" (firefighters with some police duties/powers). Maybe we can have "Fire Security Watch"?
                  nah, don't confuse or involve BSIS. Just have extra guys that are purely "FireWatch". Have them sign a form that says they understand they are NOT "security" and to ONLY retreat and ask Security to handle any suspicious person contacts.

                  All the "NO working 'security' UNTIL you get your Guard Card from BSIS in 6 weeks" is covered about a dozen times in the 8 hour class. "After leaving this class and getting the diploma you are NOT yet allowed to work Security." etc.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    A PPO is not a general contractor, if you are hired by a PPO to work an event, you are performing security duties.

                    In CA, you need your 8-hour class completed and have your guard card on your person to work security. If you have had your guard card for six months or longer, you must have completed your additional 32 hours of training. (BPC Section 7583.6)

                    If the PPO has folks who are not working for a client (example: training folks) they do not need guard cards.
                    http://guardtourreport.com

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                    • #11
                      Not only the things mentioned, but liability would be a huge thing.

                      Comment

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