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  • #16
    Having just completed training one of our new hires, I have learned alot from them and passed a lot of knowledge onto them.

    Watch your back. If you are working with a partner, if you are talking to ANYONE, be it someone whose receipt you are checking to someone who you are asking where they placed the vodka they were walking around with, have the other guy looking around where you are not. Condition Orange ALL the time, every time.

    Watch their hands, thats what will kill you.

    When its time to go hands on, isolate the hands, get them on the ground, get the cuffs on, get them inside. The longer you are outside the more attention you get. DONT GET YOUR COVER BLOWN.

    Wrap them when they hit the door. Be it a bear hug focusing on the elbows to prevent hand movements, or a full nelson (or other variations) isolate any threat, being hands.

    Grab them, cuff them, pat them, sit them down, start your paper work.

    NEVER sit them in a metal chair or have any weapons avalible near by.

    That one person who you dont pay attention to is the one who steals 95% of the time.

    Know where people can and cannot pay for merchandise.

    EXAMPLE: Last night I see two men walking from the bakery at 9:30pm (Not only are bakery and deli registers closed after 8, but this particular bakery doesn't have a register to begin with.) with a bagged 6 pack of corona and various meat and fish products. Once outside we receipt checked them, one took off on foot, made it ten feet until I was teaching my trainee how to properly apply pressure points.

    If you have uniformed security outside the store, have them make all vehicles parked in the firelane near the entrances park in a spot. If they refuse, get the plate just in case.

    I don't know how liberal your policies are, but if 3 guys do a beer run, I'm going to get something out of it. They can either re-pay the store restitution, or they can buy a new windshield after my handcuffs smash the old one out.

    It also aids when calling the police that the vehicle has a smashed front wind shield, or side passenger window, or a large dent from someone kicking in a side door.

    Write good quality clean reports, have your paper work in order when PD gets there.

    Condition White leads to Condition Black

    Anyone needs any more advice, let me know.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by FoxGhost
      Dont be shy with usage of force.The safest detainments&ejections for me have been when i have come up from behind the bad guy and immidiately took hold over the elbow of his strong arm.Dont just controll a situation, dominate it.

      FoxGhost

      If you do get someones elbow from behind you had better be prepared for retaliation. The BG is already in an excited state of mind and this may set him/her off.

      Comment


      • #18
        A few more tips

        If they don't have ID, call PD. I had one incident where the guy was cool and coopertive giving us his information, we called PD as it was $25 or $26, they patted him down and found his drivers license, NONE of which matched the social, the signature, the name, address, etc that he gave us.

        Turns out he was using his deceased fathers information.

        Just because they are cooroperative doesnt mean they arn't waiting to attack you when your partner goes to make copies.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by wisconsinite
          FoxGhost, I don't know how laws and procedures are over on your side of the pond, but here in the U.S., you can't just walk up behind somebody on their 3 o'clock position, without just cause, and execute an escort hold or compliance hold. And while you think may be their dominant arm, just may not be. Even with their weak arm, they can swing around and punch you in your face, even while you try to maintain that pincer grip. Things happen quickly. Especially when someone resists. Escpecially when they are equal to or bigger than YOUR build.
          Stay Safe.
          When you are taking someone into custody, you sure are permitted to take them into an escort hold. A palm-forward escort is not considered a use of force, at least not in Washington State. It causes no pain to the subject and it is done for officer safety.

          We routinely use the palm-forward to escort people. If they begin to resist, it can easily be turned into a counter-joint and thus, pain compliance. It also allows you to easily place the subject's hands into a handcuffing position.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by LPGuy
            When you are taking someone into custody, you sure are permitted to take them into an escort hold. A palm-forward escort is not considered a use of force, at least not in Washington State. It causes no pain to the subject and it is done for officer safety.

            We routinely use the palm-forward to escort people. If they begin to resist, it can easily be turned into a counter-joint and thus, pain compliance. It also allows you to easily place the subject's hands into a handcuffing position.
            In Washington State, the taught Continuum of Force is as follows:

            1. Visual presence
            2. Verbal commands/de-escalation
            3. Touching subject/joint manipulation/physical escort
            4. Impact weapons
            5. Deadly force

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Investigation
              In Washington State, the taught Continuum of Force is as follows:

              1. Visual presence
              2. Verbal commands/de-escalation
              3. Touching subject/joint manipulation/physical escort
              4. Impact weapons
              5. Deadly force
              In Washington State, you may legally perform contact controls and escort techniques at a level two use of force. A better model also adds suspect behavior as a reason for your actions. Contact controls and escort techniques may be used on passive resisters.

              By "joint manipulation," I assume you're referring to counter-joints, which are in fact pain compliance techniques. These would be used on a level 3 use of force, which is reserved for active resisters.

              In addition, a numbered model such as this could be somewhat confusing--for example, there is no need to progress through steps 1 and 2 if you need to immediately perform 3. If someone needs to be controlled immediately, you can indeed take them into an escort hold upon contact.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by LPGuy
                A palm-forward escort is not considered a use of force, at least not in Washington State.
                To better clarify, an escort technique such as a palm forward is not classified as "using force" on someone, just as handcuffing someone is not classified as a "use of force," either.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by LPGuy
                  To better clarify, an escort technique such as a palm forward is not classified as "using force" on someone, just as handcuffing someone is not classified as a "use of force," either.
                  Well, I don't know what your company guidelines are, but that is similar to the model that is used by the C.J.T.C. here in Washington State (as I was taught in the academy). Also bear in mind that the levels are very fluid and that "reasonable and necessary" force can be used to protect yourself. Think about this, if you are "escorting" an individual and they feel that they not feel free to leave, you are using a level of force (regardless if they are being processed for theft or not). I know a bit about the work that you do considering that I worked in L.P. / L.P. management prior to working in L.E.
                  Last edited by Investigation; 03-02-2007, 07:42 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Investigation
                    Well, I don't know what your company guidelines are, but that is similar to the model that is used by the C.J.T.C. here in Washington State (as I was taught in the academy). Also bear in mind that the levels are very fluid and that "reasonable and necessary" force can be used to protect yourself. Think about this, if you are "escorting" an individual and they feel that they not feel free to leave, you are using a level of force (regardless if they are being processed for theft or not). I know a bit about the work that you do considering that I worked in L.P. / L.P. management prior to working in L.E.
                    I'm actually former LP and no longer work for a private company. I now work for a school district and most of our policies (especially use of force guidelines) are taken straight out of the local police department's manual. They are also identical to what I was taught by police officers in CJ classes. Then again, these guidelines can and do change over time as court cases effect them.

                    The original point that I meant to make was that contact controls and escort techniques may lawfully be used on anyone that is being less than fully compliant and cooperative. That includes argumentive subjects, people going limp and/or dragging their feet, etc. Those are all forms of passive resistance which allow you to place your hands on them to facilitate cooperation.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I became curious and started looking around on the Internet at various use of force continuums, and I see that some places actually use a 6-step model. In that model, contact controls would be at a level three (with presence being the first level and verbal commands the second).

                      I've always been taught a 5-step model, which places officer presence and verbal communication in the same first level. Those two elements make up the vast majority of officer contacts every day, whether or not they have to do with apprehension of a criminal suspect.

                      A six level model seems very redundant to me.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by LPGuy
                        I became curious and started looking around on the Internet at various use of force continuums, and I see that some places actually use a 6-step model. In that model, contact controls would be at a level three (with presence being the first level and verbal commands the second).

                        I've always been taught a 5-step model, which places officer presence and verbal communication in the same first level. Those two elements make up the vast majority of officer contacts every day, whether or not they have to do with apprehension of a criminal suspect.

                        A six level model seems very redundant to me.
                        Yes, I too have seen some variations. I remember that different departments place OC at different levels. Some at level 2 (with the impact weapons) and some at 3. If I remember correctly, the P.D. I used to work at placed it at level 3. School District? Great choice! The benefits were better than L.P. with PERS 2, etc... The community colleges are not too bad either (where I reside now).
                        Last edited by Investigation; 03-03-2007, 04:43 AM.

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                        • #27
                          The only problem with the idea of "force continuums" (and sometimes the way they're taught) is that they tend to instill a "sequencing" frame of mind in some people. BG does 1, you do 2...BG does 3, you do 4...etc.

                          This "sequence expectation" can actually create a built-in delay in the officer's reaction that may be only a split-second, but it can be enough to get an officer into trouble. "WHOA! The BG went straight to #5! What happened to #1, 2, 3 and 4?" Sounds dumb, I know, but it's subconscious.

                          In my experience, the BG typically doesn't step through anything. He goes straight for whatever his "highest" level of force might be - whether that's #3, 4 or 5 - at the first opportunity, if he can. Training should keep the officer's decision-making as binary as possible and not get him snarled up in certain expectations. It's significant that you can find "force continuums" of from 4 to 6 "levels", a clear indication that this is just a training model that tries to teach a concept, in this case "judgement". As such, it should never be allowed to become a substitute for the concept it is trying to teach. You'll rarely have the opportunity in confrontations to "work the math" of "Let's see now...force level "Y" is "greater than" force level "X", so I can do "Z".
                          Last edited by SecTrainer; 03-03-2007, 11:26 AM.
                          "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                          "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                          "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                          "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by SecTrainer
                            The only problem with the idea of "force continuums" (and sometimes the way they're taught) is that they tend to instill a "sequencing" frame of mind in some people. BG does 1, you do 2...BG does 3, you do 4...etc.

                            This "sequence expectation" can actually create a built-in delay in the officer's reaction that may be only a split-second, but it can be enough to get an officer into trouble. "WHOA! The BG went straight to #5! What happened to #1, 2, 3 and 4?" Sounds dumb, I know, but it's subconscious.

                            In my experience, the BG typically doesn't step through anything. He goes straight for whatever his "highest" level of force might be - whether that's #3, 4 or 5 - at the first opportunity, if he can. Training should keep the officer's decision-making as binary as possible and not get him snarled up in certain expectations. It's significant that you can find "force continuums" of from 4 to 6 "levels", a clear indication that this is just a training model that tries to teach a concept, in this case "judgement". As such, it should never be allowed to become a substitute for the concept it is trying to teach. You'll rarely have the opportunity in confrontations to "work the math" of "Let's see now...force level "Y" is "greater than" force level "X", so I can do "Z".
                            Great points. That's why I said a numbered model can be confusing, because it may instill that idea that you need to start at #1 and work your way up. A good model pairs suspect behaviors with your levels of force. That way, you know what actions are acceptable to use based on how they are acting.

                            For example, you'll know that an active resister is one who is displayed heightened physical resistance and displaying signs that he will actively resist your attempts to control him. That is directly tied to level 3 on my force continuum, which states I can use counter-joints and pain compliance, hair holds, take-downs, knee and elbow strikes to primary targets, OC spray and baton strikes to primary targets against this person.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Investigation
                              Yes, I too have seen some variations. I remember that different departments place OC at different levels. Some at level 2 (with the impact weapons) and some at 3. If I remember correctly, the P.D. I used to work at placed it at level 3. School District? Great choice! The benefits were better than L.P. with PERS 2, etc... The community colleges are not too bad either (where I reside now).
                              On a 5-step model, our department places OC and baton strikes (only against primary targets) on a level 3, which would be against active resistance. Baton strikes against secondary targets would be on a level 4, and baton strikes against tertiary targets would be on a level 5.

                              The school district that I work at is indeed a great job, with much better pay and benefits than LP. In addition, you get all the vacations and summers off as well.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Lynch Mob
                                "This kind of "mathematical calculation" about whether a particular bust is "worth it or not" is not good LP, and it's not smart policy."

                                - SecTrainer
                                I've been trained on all my weapons "oc spray, expandable baton, firearm, and duty knife all stay on the strong side. When conducting the "interview" stance, you always angle your body so that you're weapons are opposite of the subject. Talking with your hands in front of you, or even crossed in front of you are the best ways to hold your stance. Also, keeping in mind that if you're taking notes to keep yourself at a reasonable distance from the subject.

                                We all, yes even security have to keep in mind that due to todays lovely technology, everyone is "watching".
                                "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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