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  • #31
    Originally posted by wisconsinite
    My Mom, a 17 year veteran of the WI State Patrol, told me, in a way, there's no such thing as a "Citizens Arrest". Citizens can however, DETAIN an individual until police arrive, only if they witness a FELONY crime directly.
    She told me this a number of years ago, and my memory on her exact words may have faded...
    Texas officers say that as well. That is totally incorrect. The law here clearly defines a person as "arrested" when the person is held by restraint or force. It is not "detain and release to law enforcement". It also clearly states a person must be taken before a magistrate within 48 hours of the time the arrest is made.
    According to our written law, anytime we call the police to pick up one of our prisoners they may not release the prisoner if the arrest is lawful. However, what really happens is another story..
    "We appreciate all the hard work you've done, the dedicated hours you have worked, and the lives you have saved. However, since this is your third time being late to work, we are terminating your employment here."

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    • #32
      My "resident" Lt. at Polk County (Florida) Sheriff's Office had something to say about this:

      Me: Its amazing how many cops risk their jobs by relying on heresay in relation to laws they were never trained on.
      Paul: Amazing, isn't it?

      Ie: They risk their jobs on failing to perform duties, or worse, making unlawful arrests of those who are making lawful arrests. Eventually, someone will push it, and not even the FOP screaming, "Its just a security guard! You can't possibly fire him over a bad arrest of a security guard!" will stop the ball from rolling.
      Some Kind of Commando Leader

      "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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      • #33
        Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
        My "resident" Lt. at Polk County (Florida) Sheriff's Office had something to say about this:

        Me: Its amazing how many cops risk their jobs by relying on heresay in relation to laws they were never trained on.
        Paul: Amazing, isn't it?

        Ie: They risk their jobs on failing to perform duties, or worse, making unlawful arrests of those who are making lawful arrests. Eventually, someone will push it, and not even the FOP screaming, "Its just a security guard! You can't possibly fire him over a bad arrest of a security guard!" will stop the ball from rolling.
        I would guess the old police saw still applies, "Hard cases make bad law."
        Enjoy the day,
        Bill

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        • #34
          Originally posted by 1stWatch
          What I am wondering about, after all the LP I've seen operate, why do none of them carry OC cans? Many times when foot chases ensue, the suspect just successfully fought off the LP or struggled out of a physical hold while they were trying to apprehend him. A quick squirt of OC up the nose would solve a lot of that.

          When I worked for Kroger's Loss Prevention we carryed OC spray. BUT....let me say that again.. BUT

          My supervisory is a Chief of Police for a big police department in this state. Some how he was able to convince the company to allow us to carry them, from my understanding we were the only LP department in this state (Michigan) to carry OC. This guy was the GOD of all LP Bosses I ever had. We would train every month on Self Defense and a vareity of LP subjects. They would even bring in the company lawyers and we had Mock Court Room Testimony and major discussions on LP Liability. He trained us to MCOLES standards which is similar to other states POST for Police officers. That was and still will be one of the best jobs I ever had, it almost beats out being a cop now. I stated this before in another Forum, nothing beats Grocery store LP, at least in my small opinion.

          BTW they still carry OC spray to this day.

          Now also while I worked for Kroger, we were allowed to chase to our hearts content, not sure if that is still allowed from what I was told yes they still do it.

          While I worked for Kroger, I believe we had 3 guys total get visits to the hospital while I was a supervisor there. Those 3 guys had broken legs, all from getting ran over!!

          It's extremely dangerous to chase, even as a police officer the Liability usually out weighs the overall case. We have strict chase policies in my department, I'm shocked we are still allowed to chase considering a lot of departments are now shying away from it. I have a case coming up this month on a fleeing and eluading (Jury Trail )

          I definately miss the old days in LP when it would be nothing to chase down a guy in a pick up in a parking lot, jump out, cuff him, throw him in the back of the truck and drive back to your store with your prize.........not that that has ever happen
          Last edited by Gumshoe; 03-12-2006, 10:39 AM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by wjohnc
            I've been involved in the security industry for 11 years, including 4 as an LPO. For the last 3 months I'm a security guard in a grocery store, but - but - my job is the deterrence of theives. I do that not by walking around like a sign with legs, but by active deterrence; I walk up to and talk with thieves if I can, if I can't I make my presence very well known by making eye contact and by exaggerating my looking at their bags, or pockets, or whatever they have with them, or some other method that both makes my intention of stopping them unmistakable, and shows that I am not just another SG - my confidence and skill will conquer cowards and thieves.

            A couple of people in this thread say that "retailers should focus more on preventing the problem before entering the store, rather than trying chase the problem out the door", and that is exactly what I do.
            And here's the bonus: both my employer and the client have given permission for me to arrest if I want, which I have done. But deterrence is both more fun and a whole helluva lot safer.

            my 2 cents

            wjohnc
            When I started in hotel security (29 years ago next month), we operated a lot like LP people in retail stores. We were plain clothed & snuck up on problem causers.

            Over the years we have changed our method of operting completely. We are now prevention oriented. Although I still don't wear a uniform, I wear highly visable id (a badge on my pocket or on a chain around my neck). I think that this is more along the lines of what modern security should be doing. We do mainly prevention with some intervention. When asked what the diference between security & policing is, this is what I believe. The police do the opposite. They do mainly intervention with some prevention.

            Being highly identifiable also helps when doing our other duties, acting as first responders to medical emergencies & evacuating during fire emergencies etc.

            I'm surprised that most retail stores have not gone this route, that they still think this undercover catching the crook is more effective than highly visable security preventing theft in the first place.
            I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
            Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by HotelSecurity
              When I started in hotel security (29 years ago next month), we operated a lot like LP people in retail stores. We were plain clothed & snuck up on problem causers.

              Over the years we have changed our method of operting completely. We are now prevention oriented. Although I still don't wear a uniform, I wear highly visable id (a badge on my pocket or on a chain around my neck). I think that this is more along the lines of what modern security should be doing. We do mainly prevention with some intervention. When asked what the diference between security & policing is, this is what I believe. The police do the opposite. They do mainly intervention with some prevention.

              Being highly identifiable also helps when doing our other duties, acting as first responders to medical emergencies & evacuating during fire emergencies etc.

              I'm surprised that most retail stores have not gone this route, that they still think this undercover catching the crook is more effective than highly visable security preventing theft in the first place.
              Recoveries and successful arrests are metrics that they can use to justify to corporate that the LP operation is needed. Remember, most companies see LP as an expense to be justified.
              Some Kind of Commando Leader

              "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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              • #37
                For new accounts, you should be able to show management what they lost in the way of SL before LP was incorporated versus the significant decline in losses after LP started working the store. In a case like that, prevention would work just fine because the expense for LP could be justified by the decrease in merchandise lost to SL.

                I'm all for prevention first, intervention second.
                Last edited by Mr. Security; 03-19-2006, 06:56 PM. Reason: Incomplete post.
                Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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                • #38
                  I'm an lp at a retail store and we're not allowed to pursue under any circumstances. Nor are we allowed to use restraints. Personally I think this really sucks. You can make the stop, walk them back to the office and still all they have to do is walk away and that's it. We file a report but that doesn't do much. After someone does it once they know what to do to get away the next time. I just hate letting them go.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Bodyguard429
                    I'm an lp at a retail store and we're not allowed to pursue under any circumstances. Nor are we allowed to use restraints. Personally I think this really sucks. You can make the stop, walk them back to the office and still all they have to do is walk away and that's it. We file a report but that doesn't do much. After someone does it once they know what to do to get away the next time. I just hate letting them go.
                    Then you have even more reason to work on the prevention part of it. You can enjoy a sense of satisfaction knowing that you protected the store by being proactive instead of just reacting after a crime is committed.
                    Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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                    • #40
                      Many are not as motivated to be proactive because of the lack of recognition. The public and media (and sometimes supervisors) are quick to commend the officer that chases down and fights the suspect that stole a carton of cigarettes. Conversely, they seldom mention the officer that averts a $10,000 in-house inventory scam.
                      I believe I speak for everyone here sir, when I say, to Hell with our orders.
                      -Lieutenant Commander Data
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