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  • #16
    Originally posted by hemi444
    Just another wonder here about other state laws, but if a S/L fights to get away is it considered robbery? I understand In philly if you run or fight with LP its automatic robbery.
    In California a shoplift becomes a robbery if you physically resist the attempt to stop you. And in California robbery is considered a serious offense and you could get sentenced to major time in state prision.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Serpico
      Nope. As long as they didn't run across a busy thoroughfare, we were to stay on them at all costs.
      "all costs" could cost you your life. Chasing a shoplifter means that his back is toward you and it may not be possible to see his hand(s). The S/L could easily turn around with a gun and shoot you. Best to see if you can observe where the guy goes from a safe distance and try to get a plate number, etc.
      Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Mr. Security
        "all costs" could cost you your life. Chasing a shoplifter means that his back is toward you and it may not be possible to see his hand(s). The S/L could easily turn around with a gun and shoot you. Best to see if you can observe where the guy goes from a safe distance and try to get a plate number, etc.
        Making the stop in the first place could cost you your life. I see what you're saying and to an extent, I agree. Loss prevention, more so than traditional security, poses a bigger threat to the employees life. Regardless, there's going to be a heavy risk associated with the job. Some stores did have an armed wackenhut guard, so he/she would've been involved in the pursuit.

        On a side note, if a S/L uses physical force on an LPO in Illinois, at least where I was, they got a Aggrevated Battery beef ontop of the retail theft. I'm not crystal on that being statewide, but my company had a really good relationship with LEOs in the area as both of the owners were LEOs.

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        • #19
          There are issues in letting the suspect escape view when "observing them from a distance," as you have lost sight of them, and no longer know if they have the merchandise on them.

          If your LP operation wants apprehensions, not just recovery of property, then you need to catch the bad guys. Or else you may be looking at a transfer to the cashier pool.
          Some Kind of Commando Leader

          "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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          • #20
            What I am wondering about, after all the LP I've seen operate, why do none of them carry OC cans? Many times when foot chases ensue, the suspect just successfully fought off the LP or struggled out of a physical hold while they were trying to apprehend him. A quick squirt of OC up the nose would solve a lot of that.
            "We appreciate all the hard work you've done, the dedicated hours you have worked, and the lives you have saved. However, since this is your third time being late to work, we are terminating your employment here."

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            • #21
              Pursuits are not limited here in any way.I know of a chase that went on for 3km off the site and ended with the apprehension of the dirtbag.We are trusted to make our own judgements if the pursuit is possible&safe enough.If you get hurt,the company medical covers it.If the perp gets hurt, its his own fault.If a 3rd party gets hurt, its the fault of the one who directly caused the injury.

              Something to consider: Over here, the dirtbags know we will chase them to hell and back if we have to.Therefore, very few even try it and those who do usually either have outstanding warrants or drugs on them.
              Another thing: At least those of us who work retail security tend to be fit,mean and armed with everything short of a firearm.The bad guys know they will get their asses kicked if they do something stupid, and therefore only the stupid try

              FoxGhost
              Shoplifters will be shot.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by FoxGhost
                Pursuits are not limited here in any way.I know of a chase that went on for 3km off the site and ended with the apprehension of the dirtbag.We are trusted to make our own judgements if the pursuit is possible&safe enough.If you get hurt,the company medical covers it.If the perp gets hurt, its his own fault.If a 3rd party gets hurt, its the fault of the one who directly caused the injury.

                Something to consider: Over here, the dirtbags know we will chase them to hell and back if we have to.Therefore, very few even try it and those who do usually either have outstanding warrants or drugs on them.
                Another thing: At least those of us who work retail security tend to be fit,mean and armed with everything short of a firearm.The bad guys know they will get their asses kicked if they do something stupid, and therefore only the stupid try

                FoxGhost
                Then again, in the US, there's the perception that security will not, or cannot chase, and even if they do, they have no authority to do anything once they catch you. This perception is usually shared by police, criminals, the client, and the public.
                Some Kind of Commando Leader

                "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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                • #23
                  [QUOTE=FoxGhost]Pursuits are not limited here in any way.I know of a chase that went on for 3km off the site and ended with the apprehension.....

                  Call me either stupid...or American...but I don't know the Metric System.
                  FoxGhost, I know you're Finnish, but please convert your measurements, when speaking about speed, and distances. America thanks you. LOL
                  **==
                  "If you run, you'll only go to jail tired."

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                  • #24
                    [QUOTE=wisconsinite]
                    Originally posted by FoxGhost
                    Pursuits are not limited here in any way.I know of a chase that went on for 3km off the site and ended with the apprehension.....

                    Call me either stupid...or American...but I don't know the Metric System.
                    FoxGhost, I know you're Finnish, but please convert your measurements, when speaking about speed, and distances. America thanks you. LOL
                    **==
                    3 kilometers = 1.86411358 mi
                    Google Calculator: 3 km to mi

                    Technically, there's nothing stopping someone from continuing a pursuit anywhere through the state, even crossing state lines, because we're pursuing based on our "right" to private arrest, not any police power of arrest.

                    Its like a bailbondsman. Bail Agents don't have "jurisdiction."
                    Some Kind of Commando Leader

                    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      My Mom, a 17 year veteran of the WI State Patrol, told me, in a way, there's no such thing as a "Citizens Arrest". Citizens can however, DETAIN an individual until police arrive, only if they witness a FELONY crime directly.
                      She told me this a number of years ago, and my memory on her exact words may have faded...
                      "If you run, you'll only go to jail tired."

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by wisconsinite
                        My Mom, a 17 year veteran of the WI State Patrol, told me, in a way, there's no such thing as a "Citizens Arrest". Citizens can however, DETAIN an individual until police arrive, only if they witness a FELONY crime directly.
                        She told me this a number of years ago, and my memory on her exact words may have faded...
                        I hear this all the time, mostly from law enforcement officers. Wisconsin is actually the basis for alot of case law regarding "Citizen's Arrest," and Florida Case Law is based off of Wisconsin Case Law.

                        A private citizen has the authority invested by English Common Law to preserve the peace by taking a person who violates it into custody for the purposes of remanding them to a capable magistrate. The "night watch" or "guard" was tasked with this task, usually under the authority of the king. As there was no "police" force to speak of, it was up to the citizenry who felt the need to be part of the "watch" to undertake this guarding of the town.

                        After the invention of professional policing in England, the law still recongized that the citizens are a vital part of preserving the peace (not enforcing the law) and therefore the tradition stayed.

                        As American professional policing took off, this common law was taken less and less at face value by the police and the public, but has not changed legally.

                        There are several court cases which clearly document a Wisconsin Police Officer's right to arrest outside of jurisdiction, as a private citizen and not a police officer, including City of Waukesha v. Gorz, 166 Wis. 2d 243, 245, 479 N.W.2d 221 (Ct. App. 1991), State vs. Keith, http://www.courts.state.wi.us/html/ca/02/02-0583.htm

                        (I'm not sure how to quote WI Appeals Cases, so I provided a link to the second one. THe first one will come up on Google, its quoted so often by other states.)

                        I swear, something that many peace officers forget is that their authority to arrest out of jurisidiction is NOT because of their badge, but because they are a private citizen. The state may authorize them to carry a firearm anywhere within the state in performance of their duties, but their township or jurisidiction cannot grant them police powers in another jurisidiction.

                        This is why Wisconsin makes reference in no less than four places in WSS and WI Admin Code to "Private Police." Where public police officers are granted more leeway to investigate and arrest, and there are protections for the public against the impersonation of public police officers, the state recongizes that private posse and policing firms exist and are capable of protecting the peace, in accordance with Common, US, and WI law.

                        This may be another reason why private policing and security has no requirements in this state. There is no minimum training standard for a private citizen to effect an arrest. Only that they be physically located in the state, that the offender commits a public offense or felony in their presence, and that the arrestor inform the arrestee that they are under arrest.

                        The concept of "detainment" vs. "arrest" is trivial, as several law dictionaries clearly state that both are identical. The word "arrest" has been relegated to "detainment by lawful governmental authority," where "detainment" has been relegated to "detainment by lawful authority in absence of governmental authority."

                        In that case, you could say that a Racine County Deputy who stops a person for DUI in Kenosha County is only detaining the offender. I'm sure that the Racine Deputy will say, "I am not, I'm a Deputy Sheriff, and I'm arresting him."
                        Some Kind of Commando Leader

                        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          LPO in uniform

                          I've been involved in the security industry for 11 years, including 4 as an LPO. For the last 3 months I'm a security guard in a grocery store, but - but - my job is the deterrence of theives. I do that not by walking around like a sign with legs, but by active deterrence; I walk up to and talk with thieves if I can, if I can't I make my presence very well known by making eye contact and by exaggerating my looking at their bags, or pockets, or whatever they have with them, or some other method that both makes my intention of stopping them unmistakable, and shows that I am not just another SG - my confidence and skill will conquer cowards and thieves.

                          A couple of people in this thread say that "retailers should focus more on preventing the problem before entering the store, rather than trying chase the problem out the door", and that is exactly what I do.
                          And here's the bonus: both my employer and the client have given permission for me to arrest if I want, which I have done. But deterrence is both more fun and a whole helluva lot safer.

                          my 2 cents

                          wjohnc
                          Rule #1: Go home at the end of the day in an upright position, with everything attached, and with peace of mind for having done the job well.
                          "I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them." - John Wayne (in his last movie 'The Shootist')

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                          • #28
                            its more fun to stand in sight of the shoplifter holding the tags that they have ripped off the item.and watching them crap their pants.

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                            • #29
                              I have to agree, I love see that "Oh ****" look they get on their face when they spot you.

                              But after nine years in LP, you get bored easily and try to create "FUN" when ever possible.

                              I will have to say, Grocery Store LP was where the fun was in those nine years. Hell I'm a police officer now and I still think it was more fun then being a cop.

                              By the way, someone made a reference to Bail Agents having total jurisdiction. There are some states in the US that if you even mention the mere fact that you are a Bail Agent and attempt to arrest someone, you will be arrested.

                              I remember this one guy used to carry a gun around him and he said he was a bounty hunter. It took about a year before he was arrested for Felony Weapon Possesion and a stem of other charges. I'm just waiting for someone to sue the hell out of "DOG".

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Gumshoe
                                ....I'm just waiting for someone to sue the [heck] out of "DOG".
                                I believe that he is a convicted felon, which explains why he doesn't carry a firearm. I'm not saying that he hasn't reformed his ways, but I don't understand how a state can allow a convicted felon to work in such a capacity.
                                Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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