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  • davis002
    replied
    Originally posted by S1SRM
    I am new to this group. I do know Chuck that is a member on here. The reason I am writing is I need to vent!
    Tonight was the worst night I have had as security manager in my mall in South Des Moines. I was off tonight when I got a call about two different gangs fighting on our property. Upon arrival there were 3 Des Moines Police crusers already on the scene. The groups of 150 to 200 wannabes had dispersed into smaller groups it took all 5 of our security officers and my self along with 3 Police officers to finally clear these groups out. I feel we were just plain overwhelmed and out manned. One thing I noticed is they have no fear of anything...I mean 13 to 16 year old teens smart mouthing the police as if they could do nothing to them. I would love to put a cufew in effect, however that idea will have to be sold to the owners.
    An idea would be that teenagers must be accompanied by a parent or legal guardian after a set time, e.g., 6pm or 7pm. I know the Mall of America here in Minnesota has some sort of similar policy in effect, but I think it may only be on the weekends... although I cannot be 100% certain.

    Making such policy effective really depends on a number of factors...
    • How late the mall is open.
    • Security staffing levels during the times when the policy would be in effect.
    • Support from the local police.
    • Impact on mall tenants (if the teens don't spend much, this isn't a big deal)
    • And more that I am not thinking of at the moment.


    I'm not a mall expert, but I feel that restricting teenagers from the mall (w/o parent/guardian supervision) might be your best bet.

    Do any other forum members who have experience with these problems have any opinions? Mall Director, you got any ideas?

    Leave a comment:


  • DMS 525
    replied
    Originally posted by S1SRM
    I am new to this group. I do know Chuck that is a member on here. The reason I am writing is I need to vent!
    Tonight was the worst night I have had as security manager in my mall in South Des Moines. I was off tonight when I got a call about two different gangs fighting on our property. Upon arrival there were 3 Des Moines Police crusers already on the scene. The groups of 150 to 200 wannabes had dispersed into smaller groups it took all 5 of our security officers and my self along with 3 Police officers to finally clear these groups out. I feel we were just plain overwhelmed and out manned. One thing I noticed is they have no fear of anything...I mean 13 to 16 year old teens smart mouthing the police as if they could do nothing to them. I would love to put a cufew in effect, however that idea will have to be sold to the owners.
    Ahhhh, good old Southridge. 150 to 200 gang bangers? Musta been a convention.

    Don't worry, partner. Most of those "gang bangers" are just a lot of hot air. Send one bouncing on his butt out the door, and see how fast the others disappear. BTDT in the 'hood a long time ago.

    But at the same time, don't ever take any fool chances. You don't get paid enough for that where you work.

    P.S. I know Paul, and I know Gary.

    Leave a comment:


  • DMS 525
    replied
    I recommend searching policeone.com, and they have extensive info on gangs, or sometimes in the chat room, you can talk to Bob himself, and he can really fill you in on what you want to know.

    Leave a comment:


  • jeff194307
    replied
    I am now working at a college about 200 miles from Des Moines, after having retired from the Calif Dept of Corrections. I may have some ideas for you concerning your mall, p.m. me if you like.

    Leave a comment:


  • S1SRM
    replied
    Bad night in Des Moines

    I am new to this group. I do know Chuck that is a member on here. The reason I am writing is I need to vent!
    Tonight was the worst night I have had as security manager in my mall in South Des Moines. I was off tonight when I got a call about two different gangs fighting on our property. Upon arrival there were 3 Des Moines Police crusers already on the scene. The groups of 150 to 200 wannabes had dispersed into smaller groups it took all 5 of our security officers and my self along with 3 Police officers to finally clear these groups out. I feel we were just plain overwhelmed and out manned. One thing I noticed is they have no fear of anything...I mean 13 to 16 year old teens smart mouthing the police as if they could do nothing to them. I would love to put a cufew in effect, however that idea will have to be sold to the owners.
    Last edited by S1SRM; 01-06-2007, 12:32 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr. Security
    replied
    Originally posted by Mall Director
    Verbal Judo is an excellent tactic that should be learned by any one in this field! It is a life saver and liability saver. As once put to me, you can always start soft and work up to hard, but you cant start hard and work down to soft. I always prefer swaying the subject(s) to comply with my demands with the art of persuasion!
    Always a wise move. Too many weapon-equipped guards (and cops for that matter) start out the other way with that duty belt giving them a false sense of security. Why fight if you don't need to?

    Leave a comment:


  • jeff194307
    replied
    The best defense with these gangs is training of your officers. In many siuations during my time at the mall in Sacramento, we found too many gang members in a group to have superior numbers from our staff. Since we had established an excellent relationship with both the Sacramento County Sheriff and the Beat Officers of the Calif Highway Patrol to the point that these law enforcement typs carried scanners with our radio frequency, all we had to do was issue a radio call "in the blind to CHP, officer needs assistance at Birdcage Mall" . As soon as that call went out, boy did we have more officers than gang members, LOL. The big secret with mall security is gain the respect of local law enforcement. That means being able to handle most of your incidents on your own and only resort to calling the Police when you really need them. The use of tresspass warnings (written) is a very good tool because once you have issued them, you have the name of the person and other identity info. With the gangs, you knowing who they are is not something they really want, and most will find other places to hang out. But, if you ever find yourself outnumbered by a substancial margin, remember the old phrase "descretion is the better part of valor" call in for help and don't end up in the officer injury thread of this forum.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mall Director
    replied
    Verbal Judo is an excellent tactic that should be learned by any one in this field! It is a life saver and liability saver. As once put to me, you can always start soft and work up to hard, but you cant start hard and work down to soft. I always prefer swaying the subject(s) to comply with my demands with the art of persuasion!

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    How much training, if any, do your officers have in defensive tactics? This includes empty-hand control and decentralization tactics as well as intermediate weapons (OC, Taser, ASP/PR-24, etc).

    One of the chief problems with security officers confronting people who frighten the average citizen is that they are intimidated. "They're bad. They might hurt me. I don't get paid enough for this. I don't know how to stop them if they try." Once they're shown through active training in defensive tactics that they can hold their own against an aggressor or three, then they become more confident in their enforcement interactions.

    Next question is also equally important... How much training do your officers have in Professional/Tactical Communications (Called Verbal Judo)? Knowing how to fight is well and good, but knowing how to communicate with someone before having to fight them is also important. This will also allow you to judge their level of compliance.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mall Director
    replied
    Originally posted by jeff194307
    That is exactely how we stopped the problem at the mall I worked in in 1984-89. Getting support of the gang task force is pretty simple as long as you know who the gangs are. Our problem was Crips and Bloods, it got so bad that once the had a gunfight at the mall accross the street from ours. After I left the mall and was working an intake unit at Pelican Bay, one of the gang members said " hey, I know you" to me. He had been involved in a gang shooting in Sacramento and was then sentenced to 25 to life. What I am telling you guys is be very carefull when dealing with these losers, they have no qualms about taking your life.
    Thank you Jeff! You could not be more closer to the truth if I tried! Carefulness and Officer Safety is an absolute must! I cant emphasize that more. When I was first assigned this mall, my first night, I was assaulted by gang members. Of course coming from a smaller mall that has less problems, this was new to me. Quickly realizing this to be a serious issue, I had to impliment new procedures, that even differed to a degree from previousely national set procedures, as they applied to the safer malls. One concept I tried out with success, with positive results in many different ways, was team opperations, or partner programs. On a typical friday night, or weekend nights, as you are all aware, is when these "gang" affiliated subjects frequented in numbers, I put out the directive tht no individual Security Officer is permitted to operate by them selves at any time. All Security Officers are to be teamed up with atleast one other Security Officer. This created a bigger numbers game when they made contact.

    Other benefits are that in general human behavior, when confronted with conflict or dangerous situations, the human "flight or fight" syndrome takes effect, even in our Security staff. No matter how intellegent and pro-active of an Officer we attain, they are humans, and confronting larger groups then themselves can shake the Security Officers confidence and ability to function within our set parameters. By assigning a Security Officer a partner to operate with on heavy traffic nights, they develop a support system with the 2nd officer, and are much more willing, on their own accord, to approach and handle issues, especially gang related. Remove the fear from your Officers, but strengthen the "Officer Safety" operations, such as approach procedures, communications, Information relating, and situation or environmental awareness, will create a powerful and very effective team that will deminish the problems you face.

    Some may say this is a draw back, by teaming up Officers, as in coverage of the facility, and to a minor degree, it does. But the truth is, can you cover every square foot of every minute with single operations. Probably not. But by empowering your staff to operate more proactively, the problems you face will drop noticably, and the chances of Officer loss will as well.

    Benefits from doubles also come into play when one teams needs assistance. A second team arriving on location of the officer assistance call will then quadruple your presence to the area where a subject is flexing their strenght. Gang members attempt freuently to flex, especially when around the eyes of others. When these individuals are approach by multiple officers, the public obtains the perception that this type of activity is not acceptable in your facility, and it will be dealt with severely by your staff. Gangs are less likely to attempt any dangerous action when confronted by several Officers. These individuals are unpredicatable, and having every corner of the unpredictable subject covered will help prevent any damaging or negative response of the subject making an impact, and maintain public safety (our other purpose we hold).

    Leave a comment:


  • dla4122
    replied
    Gangs

    What affiliation are they claiming?

    Leave a comment:


  • jeff194307
    replied
    That is exactely how we stopped the problem at the mall I worked in in 1984-89. Getting support of the gang task force is pretty simple as long as you know who the gangs are. Our problem was Crips and Bloods, it got so bad that once the had a gunfight at the mall accross the street from ours. After I left the mall and was working an intake unit at Pelican Bay, one of the gang members said " hey, I know you" to me. He had been involved in a gang shooting in Sacramento and was then sentenced to 25 to life. What I am telling you guys is be very carefull when dealing with these losers, they have no qualms about taking your life.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mall Director
    replied
    My .02 worth!

    Yes, what you are dealing with is very serious. And as many have stated before, it is something to get a grasp on as soon as possible. To most of us here, we view them as a public nuisance, but to the public and clients, they are frightening.

    My best peice of advice, is to get in with your local PD. Make some friends, accomodate them to the highest level, and then work your way through to the gang division.

    This is an area I have alot of experience on, and I do mean alot! I was shipped out of my original station, to a mall near denver. As everyone has guessed Denver has these problems as well, and in great multitude. As soon as I arrived at my new assignment, I quickly realized why I was sent there in the first place. Gangs. And they ran the mall. There was no quesiton about it. The last director was more interested in his off time, along with the poorly capable staff. My first night out there on duty, I was assaulted for enforcing mall rules.

    Today, I have mall walkers on a friday night. Thats a sign I won, or atleast maintaining, LOL! Our mall's biggest problems are the Surenio's, Nortenio's and San Juans.

    Get all the info you can on the gangs in your area. This includes dress attire. This is important. As stated before, some of you may have walked into a mall and found the "three or less" rule enforced. This is a great tactic. But enforcing the dress attire stops gang communication.

    You are the "sole proprieter" of your mall, meaning you have complete responsibility and authoritive capabilities in your area. Malls are private property, and have private property rights. You can enforce all rules (check your mall if they have them and postings as well), and in most cases under your management, can enact new laws. Behavioral Codes of Conduct are wonderful! If you dont have em, get em!!!!! You can expel individuals for failing to follow mall rules.

    Gangs like malls because they are generally indoors, have immenaties, and are social centers, where they can go and meet up with others. enforcing the "three or less" rule prohibits them from conjoining in numbers greater than what your officers can handle safely. Consistancy is key.

    Next, by taking away their "code communicating" ability, such as flagging, identifying eachother, and signaling to incite fighting, will prevent problems and reduce the number that show. You will get the "signled out" effect at first, which will cause you alot of grief, but dont cave into it. The mall rules can be to enforce "dress code". And by using a blank statement about violating dress code to the gang members, that their attire is inapropriate and not acceptable, you will take their communications away. I was always questioned, since our rules state "No gang attire or gang affiliated attire is permitted", as to what gang attire is, and why is doesnt state more clearly as to what articles of clothing is permitted, my response is this "Gang attire like trend, changes, and it changes frequently, and to state in writing or under signage, what article of clothing is permitted would be out dated just after posting it, as gangs will change up their attire to avoid detection by law enforcement and mall rules". This simply put is that this attire rule can not be written, as the gangs change to avoid your rules. So your rules have to change with the gangs, to keep on top.

    Last resort to gang intervention at your mall: This rule works great! You are working at a mall, and a mall is designed for what? Shopping! Many state have a "No loitering" and/or "No Mallingering" law, which can be enforced at malls. We phrase the "shop or leave" policy. If I dont see merchandise in the individuals hand, or they are not headed towards a store, then its time to leave! Yes, socially and traditionally malls are a "hang out" place, but that is a stereotype of malls, not fact. Malls are in business to make money, and if they arent shopping, then they arent there for mall business!

    Another key peice of advice I have, is using your barrment system. Start processing gang members for violating your malls rules, collect intellegence, photo's and prints (if you are permitted), and issue out trespass warning orders. This not only keeps your staff happy and busy, but will serve as a bargaining tool with your local PD, and keep the riff raff out of your mall!

    Good luck, and keep us informed on your progress! If you have any questions or comments, drop a line!

    Leave a comment:


  • dla4122
    replied
    Gang Intelligence Investigator

    Originally posted by Firemankoz
    As some of you may know I am the Director of Public Safety (security) for a local mall in michigan, we are having a gang wanna be problem here. The problem is we cant say "wanna be" since they have someting to prove and nothing to loose! Any idea where I can go on line for some goos intel???
    I am firefighter with air force cop experience and have never had this issue!
    Thanks
    Check out my website, it has alot of gang intelligence on it:

    The Gang Unit

    Leave a comment:


  • darrell
    replied
    http://www.gangsorus.com/

    Tell Bob Darrell sent you. He's a retired Federal Agent and now works with the Federal Prision System with their Gang unit..

    BTW What mall do you work at?

    I hope your not at one of the General Growth Properties. Please say it aint so..

    PM ME and I'll give ya some help with gangs in the mall.

    Leave a comment:

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