Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Elements

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Unless you are able to arrest yourself for probable cause, removing the merchandise concealed may kill the police officer's arrest. He needs to develop PC that the person committed an offense.
    Some Kind of Commando Leader

    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
      Unless you are able to arrest yourself for probable cause, removing the merchandise concealed may kill the police officer's arrest. He needs to develop PC that the person committed an offense.
      In my locale, the statement of the LP officer who files the complaint provides sufficient PC. It's not necessary for the LEO to actually retrieve the merchandise from the person of the shoplifter.
      "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

      "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

      "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

      "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

      Comment


      • #33
        After I hit enter, I thought about that.
        Some Kind of Commando Leader

        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

        Comment


        • #34
          The issue of knowing where the merchandise is concealed, in my mind, is very important. True, there is not requirement by law to know. However, not knowing leads to a tremendous amount of other problems. It becomes much easier for the defense to show that you are rather incompetent as an LP agent. Imagine this scenario.

          Defense Laywer: So, when you were observing the suspect with the DVD on aisle 12, you said in your report you observed concealment of the merchandise but you did not mention where it was concealed. Where did you see the defendent conceal the merchandise at?

          LP Agent: Well, when I stopped him and patted them down, I found a DVD in a shopping bag from Macy's.

          Defense Lawyer: I did not ask where you found it, I asked where you observed it concealed.

          LP Agent: Umm...They had the DVD and then they didn't. By the angle I was at, I could assume he dropped it in the bag he was carrying.

          Defense Lawyer: So you are saying you never saw the DVD go into the bag?

          LP Agent: Umm....yeah, I guess so.

          Defense Lawyer: If you did not see where the item was concealed, how can you say that my client stole it?

          LP Agent: He had it, and then it suddenly disappeared. When I stopped him he had it in a Macy's bag with no receipt. And I am pretty sure Macy's does not sell DVDs.

          Defense Lawyer: Did you ask my client if he had the DVD on him when he came in the store?

          LP Agent: He tried to use that excuse. He said he was looking to exchange it.

          Defense Lawyer: So he told you that he brought the DVD in the store and was going to exchange it, yet you still prosecuted him?

          LP Agent: Everyone uses that excuse, but I know he stole it.

          Defense Lawyer: But you did not see where the item was concealed. If you did not see where it was concealed, how can you claim it was concealed at all. How can you prove my client did not just place it down on the rack again?

          LP Agent: Well, I never saw him place it on the rack, so he could not have done that.

          Defense Lawyer: By that logic, you never saw him place it in the bag, so he could not have done that either, isn't that true?

          Jury comes back, not guilty. Suddenly you have a lawsuit filed for false arrest, malicious prosecution and much more.

          You know, I tend to think that observing where the merchandise is concealed is perhaps the single most important element. Not only should it not be ignored, it should be trained as crucial to the success of your case.
          www.plsolutions.net
          www.customerloyaltysolutions.com

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Lynch Mob

            If someone conceals merchandise on the sales floor, you should of course be able to articulate where the merchandise was concealed. However, it is not a critical element needed before the apprehension.

            There are many situations in which you may not be able to observe concealment but still may a stop. If someone is holding a red shirt, then kneels down behind a display of jeans, I can do an area check behind the display and know that the suspect concealed the merchandise if I can't locate the red shirt. When you stop the subject and locate the red shirt, which you can identify as your company's property, concealed somewhere on his person or in his possessions, that coupled with your observations provide all the proof that is needed. Fitting room stops are identical situations.

            Comment


            • #36
              Yes, fitting room stops are pretty much the same. Also, in court, you should be able to articulate that you saw them select the DVD, conceal the DVD, maintained constant surveillance and pass all points of sale.

              If you never saw them select the DVD, then why the hell are you making the stop? Also in court, most LP's are going to say, "I saw them put the DVD in the Macy's bag", not "Uh, I don't know".

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by LPGuy
                Re: Lynch Mob

                If someone conceals merchandise on the sales floor, you should of course be able to articulate where the merchandise was concealed. However, it is not a critical element needed before the apprehension.

                There are many situations in which you may not be able to observe concealment but still may a stop. If someone is holding a red shirt, then kneels down behind a display of jeans, I can do an area check behind the display and know that the suspect concealed the merchandise if I can't locate the red shirt. When you stop the subject and locate the red shirt, which you can identify as your company's property, concealed somewhere on his person or in his possessions, that coupled with your observations provide all the proof that is needed. Fitting room stops are identical situations.
                These are the type of risks that result in bad stops. The moment you feel you need to go sweep an area to make sure an item was not dumped, that is the moment you need to make the decision that you are not going to make a stop.

                Kneeling down does not constitute theft. Fitting rooms are EXTREMELY risky stops, and in my opinion, should never be made. More companies prohibit fitting room stops than allow them due to lawsuits that have directly resulted from the LP agent not knowing where the merchandise was concealed.

                To say that knowing where the merchandise is concealed is not critical is rather naive.
                www.plsolutions.net
                www.customerloyaltysolutions.com

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by LPCap
                  Yes, fitting room stops are pretty much the same. Also, in court, you should be able to articulate that you saw them select the DVD, conceal the DVD, maintained constant surveillance and pass all points of sale.

                  If you never saw them select the DVD, then why the hell are you making the stop? Also in court, most LP's are going to say, "I saw them put the DVD in the Macy's bag", not "Uh, I don't know".
                  You must be able to articulate selection, but in the scenario I laid out, there was essentially an admission of selection. The defense is that the item was placed back down on the rack and not in the bag.

                  As far as what LP agents will say in court, you may be right. But if they are going to perjure themselves, why are they even in LP? What makes them any different from the shoplifter?

                  More importantly, what if the defense is the TRUTH? What if the guy did come in with a DVD to exchange? What if they did pick up one off the rack to look at the price (since price tags are usually removed for gifts)? What if he did place the item back down on the rack? What if this was all absolutely true?

                  LP agents get cocky. More often than not, the person is stealing and everything goes okay. But what about those cases where they are wrong? What if it was your father who got arrested when he was returning the DVD you gave him for Christmas? Would anyone then be saying that knowing where the merchandise is concealed is not important?
                  www.plsolutions.net
                  www.customerloyaltysolutions.com

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Lynch Mob
                    These are the type of risks that result in bad stops. The moment you feel you need to go sweep an area to make sure an item was not dumped, that is the moment you need to make the decision that you are not going to make a stop.

                    Kneeling down does not constitute theft. Fitting rooms are EXTREMELY risky stops, and in my opinion, should never be made. More companies prohibit fitting room stops than allow them due to lawsuits that have directly resulted from the LP agent not knowing where the merchandise was concealed.

                    To say that knowing where the merchandise is concealed is not critical is rather naive.
                    *sigh*

                    I worked for the largest nationwide high end department store in the United States. After viewing many other retailers' training programs, I would not hesitate to say we had the most extensive and comprehensive LP training program in existence. All new hires were subject to a three month FTO program despite whatever previous experience they had. We trained, and we trained, and we trained... even after certification.

                    We conducted fitting room stops on a frequent basis--actually, due to the high number of fitting rooms in our multi-level store, most stops were fitting room stops. The reason most companies prohibit them is because their training programs are not strict enough to have full confidence in their officers making such stops.

                    Originally posted by Lynch Mob
                    The moment you feel you need to go sweep an area to make sure an item was not dumped, that is the moment you need to make the decision that you are not going to make a stop.
                    Wrong. You're telling me that if a subject, carrying a piece of merchandise, walks behind a display and emerges on the other side with nothing in hand, you'd call off the stop? That's ridiculous. You walk where he walked, conduct a path check, and determine if it was dumped or concealed.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Lynch Mob

                      Fitting rooms are EXTREMELY risky stops, and in my opinion, should never be made.
                      Not at all. If you maintain constant surveillance of the subject before and after he leaves the fitting room, and if you have another store detective check the fitting room to see if it is clear and report back to you, then it takes the risk out of the equation. If the merchandise is not in the fitting room, then it must be on the subject (there was no place to hide it in the fitting rooms). Plain and simple. Granted, if you are working alone and you have to check it yourself, then you run the risk of the subject dumping the merchandise while you're inside. We usually worked with at least 3 people on duty. One in the camera room and two to make the stop.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Most "bad stops" never make it to court.

                        Location of the item is important, but not important enough to call off a stop. Most of the times you can approach the subject and request the unpaid merchandise back from them and they will turn it over. The others, you may need to get specific as to what items you are talking about, but I don't think that you need to say, "The red blouse, valued at $10 in your bag".

                        Fitting room stops can be very easy, but I have seen some go very wrong. Teams can stage merchandise in fitting rooms, switch merchandise, pass off merchandise or do any number of things with what they brought into the fitting room - (thus the need for 100% fitting room camera coverage haha j/k)

                        I had a fitting room stop almost go bad when a lady brought two pink shirts into the fitting room (along with a number of other items). When she left, she was missing one pink shirt, and when I checked the fitting room, I found an empty hanger and tags for the pink shirt. I was convinced that the stole the shirt, but something told me to check the clothes she discarded. When I checked, I found two pink shirts, double hung (one underneath the other). She had stolen nothing.

                        On the father/relative thing. I would hope nothing like this would happen, but if it did, I am sure it could be resolved through the district, regional or even VP level before it escalated to the court systems.

                        I wonder what the percentage of "bad" to "good" stops is?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by LPCap
                          I wonder what the percentage of "bad" to "good" stops is?
                          In the year-and-a-half that I did LP, I only knew of one bad stop in our region, and it wasn't "bad" per se. The subject no longer had the merchandise on him because he destroyed it in the restroom.

                          Originally posted by LPCap
                          Most of the times you can approach the subject and request the unpaid merchandise back from them and they will turn it over. The others, you may need to get specific as to what items you are talking about, but I don't think that you need to say, "The red blouse, valued at $10 in your bag".
                          I usually gave the subject a chance to tell me where the merchandise was located. Otherwise, I'd locate it myself on a pat down or search of their belongings.

                          Originally posted by LPCap
                          I was convinced that the stole the shirt, but something told me to check the clothes she discarded.
                          I'm not trying to knock you for this, but these are the type of things I was referring to when I was talking about training standards. Thoroughly checking all dumped items and items left in the fitting room was standard procedure for us. In fact, failure to do so was grounds for failing our training scenarios.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            It's interesting to read all the responses on this. I notice that concealment and passing the point of sale are big points, and they are.

                            The Criminal Code of Canada defines theft as:


                            322. (1) Every one commits theft who fraudulently and without colour of right takes, or fraudulently and without colour of right converts to his use or to the use of another person, anything, whether animate or inanimate, with intent

                            (a) to deprive, temporarily or absolutely, the owner of it, or a person who has a special property or interest in it, of the thing or of his property or interest in it;

                            (b) to pledge it or deposit it as security;

                            (c) to part with it under a condition with respect to its return that the person who parts with it may be unable to perform; or

                            (d) to deal with it in such a manner that it cannot be restored in the condition in which it was at the time it was taken or converted.

                            Time when theft completed

                            (2) A person commits theft when, with intent to steal anything, he moves it or causes it to move or to be moved, or begins to cause it to become movable.

                            Secrecy

                            (3) A taking or conversion of anything may be fraudulent notwithstanding that it is effected without secrecy or attempt at concealment.


                            In other words, it's pretty wide open.
                            I once arrested a woman for tearing open several containers of maxi-pads and putting them back on the shelf as revenge against the store. I used 322(1)(d) (converting to her use so as to make it unsellable). Then trespassed her off the property for one year.

                            I could have used two other sections of the Code to achieve the same result, but it was an oppurtunity to use this one for the first time, and I like the thought of them having a Theft charge rather than Damage to Property or Interfering with the Use of Property charges on their sheet.

                            JohnC
                            Last edited by wjohnc; 05-17-2007, 05:41 PM.
                            Rule #1: Go home at the end of the day in an upright position, with everything attached, and with peace of mind for having done the job well.
                            "I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them." - John Wayne (in his last movie 'The Shootist')

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by LPGuy View Post

                              I worked for the largest nationwide high end department store in the United States.
                              Nordstroms? Macys? Neiman Marcus?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                here in AZ I can detain the subject as soon as they conceal the item, even if they havn't exited the store or passed any points of purchase. This isn't the smartest thing though as it can be easily defeated in court and local LEOs usually will not cite or transport the subject to jail. usually I will only do this if I am just going to end up trespassing the subject. I will detain the subject usually while still far away from the door, retrieve the items, and have pd come out to formally trespass the subject. I will usually only do this if the person is a chronic shoplifter at the location or there is a large possibility they will resist if close to the exit or outside the store. Usually I will see the person conceal items, watch the person while positioning myself close to the exit, lock the exit doors(convience store and only if very few people in the store), and then when they make no attempt to pay I will block their exit and make the detention. That way they do not exit the store which is good because where I work people will resist most of the time if outside the store, they get a sense of freedom and go for it. Also once PD arrives and I inform them they made no attempt to pay and tried to exit and that usually makes them happy. Here in AZ though the law states that once they conceal they have the intention and mental culpability of what they are doing. Still courts are a biatch.

                                Comment

                                Leaderboard

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X