What would you do?

[Guest Close panther10758]

I took this from another site. I am curious as to see how its addressed here. Many have a different ideas of the role LP plays in a store. Are they security as some suggest or are they to focus on shrink! Are LP to engage in Police matters that are non shrink realted? Here is the imagined situation "What would you do?"

Here's a topic I've never seen adressed and may or may not have happened to anyone I know.....

The scenario: a department store with general access fitting rooms

The situation: an area associate calls one of the managers-on-duty and reports illicit activity in one of the fitting rooms. M.O.D. is there in seconds and confirms illicit activity. Obvious illicit activity!!! There's a male and female bopping like there's no tomorrow! With the vocalizations to match!!!

The response: like all good M.O.D.s, the first thing they do is call LP. A two-fold reasoning; LP is (allegedly) trained to handle issues above and beyond the "traditional" customer service, and, there is a little bit of wanting-to-share-the-experience-with-your-friends factor. Yes, the latter lacks professionalism. But it does possess a certain 'uniqueness' value! So, the LPO responds to the scene, 'cop-knocks' the door and loudly proclaims that the time to exit is now. Not in so many words, but that's the gist of it.

The aftermath: upon exiting, it is discovered that the amorous couple are only 14 years old! Yes, it is a male and female, if that matters.

In this particular situation, What would you do?

[N. A. Corbier Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close N. A. Corbier]

This depends on the state and company policy. In Florida, its a misdemeanor and not a breach of the peace, do you can't detain them for law enforcement. They haven't stolen anything, so its no longer a law enforcement issue.

You could, however, call the police and have them trespassed, but they must be free to leave.

Just make the nice people leave the store.

[bigdog Member Find all posts View Profile Close bigdog]

technically it a felony in the state of florida because neither can legally concent to sexual intercourse. so If you can prove they were having sex you could detain them for unlawful sexual performance by a minor or as i would do just tell them to leave.

[Guest Close panther10758]

Some things to consider is where is the line between Loss Prevention and Secuirty and Law Enforcement. Each have roles so where does the LP's role lay? Personally I dont think LP should be acting outside of protecting store assets which includes merchandise, assocaites and customers. To detain these two could be problematic for the LPO and the store.

[Curtis Baillie Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Curtis Baillie]

I think there is no difference between "security" and "loss prevention" in retail. It just depends on what a company wants to call the department that protects their assets. It's all the same.

[Guest Close panther10758]

Where I could agree with that point many retailers install policy that forbids what most of us would call security actions. thsi includes use of force, handcuffs weapons (like pepper spray) etc. The can be gray sometimes. However in this case (example) the line may be even greyer (I know not a word). If there is a detainment is LPO authorized to do so on stores behalf? Can store be held Civilly libel by kids, parents etc? Does store want to deal with this? No assets of store are being harmed yet a crime is being comitted. there are several concerns even though its clear the minors need to be stopped and need to leave store. In my view this is something that Mall Security (if Mall store) and/or Police should deal with. the correct course of action (in my view) is to knock on door announce yourself. Ask minors to get dressed (without openning door) and to leave the store. Now one could also request Mall Security or PD (if on scene) to make request as well.

[HotelSecurity Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close HotelSecurity]

I'd give the kid a medal. The police response time for a call like that in Montreal would be at least an hour. If he could continue doing what you said he was doing for an hour, he shoud get a medal. (JUST KIDDING!)

In the hotel we find it all the time. In stairways, on top of the washing machine in the laundromet etc etc. So far never that young. We simply send them back to their room.

[Lynch Mob Member Find all posts View Profile Close Lynch Mob]

It comes down to what is the role of Loss Prevention? If a company wants their LP department to act as the police of the store and take steps to enforce state laws, then it makes sense to take the two law breakers into custody and call the police.

If the role of LP is to protect assets, reduce losses and increase profits, then you give the two a warning about their actions and send them on their way. You don't waste time on horny teenagers when you could have someone on the other side of the store cleaning out your leather jackets.

For me, I would never advise LP to act as the police of the store. I always advise to be business people and make smart business decisions.

[N. A. Corbier Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close N. A. Corbier]

It comes down to what is the role of Loss Prevention? If a company wants their LP department to act as the police of the store and take steps to enforce state laws, then it makes sense to take the two law breakers into custody and call the police.

If the role of LP is to protect assets, reduce losses and increase profits, then you give the two a warning about their actions and send them on their way. You don't waste time on horny teenagers when you could have someone on the other side of the store cleaning out your leather jackets.

For me, I would never advise LP to act as the police of the store. I always advise to be business people and make smart business decisions.

Its interesting, in that when the Wal-Mart I worked at in 2001 had a agitated man go basically bat... insane on an Assistant Manager, they called for LP. The LP associates showed up, and promptly went the other direction once they realized the unruly man was physically attacking the assistant manager.

A general "security to..." call came out, and I decided to see what was going on since our store had no security personnel. After showing up, I decided that the man was attacking our AM, and needed to vacate the store. Seeing as how it was in the pharmacy area, I ... um... Well, I picked up a cane and used it to push-bar the guy out the emergency exit, then slammed it.

When the AM asked the LP associates what the problem was, they specifically told him: We aren't trained to be security guards, nor does our DLPM want us to be, we just apprehend shoplifters and work internals.

he AM went off on the LP associates as he was fully LP certified, and reminded them that they were there to work safety issues, such as "the crazy vietnam guy is trying to choke me to death." The again reiterated that they were not trained in physical confrontation and didn't know what to do, or if it was their job.

Keep in mind, these guys were responsible for physically apprehending shoplifters and bringing them to the LP office. They were not authorized to carry handcuffs, however.

While I got a ribbing for not "taking him into custody," it was acknowledged that the best course of action was to get the man away from the AM and out of the store. Popping him through a fire door was the only thing I could think of, since I didn't want start using the metal cane as a straight stick in landing blows, and I didn't want the guy to attack me.

This is a good example of "who polices the store" and the expectations between management and LP.

[LPCap Member Find all posts View Profile Close LPCap]

I would say stores need a two fold LP/Security Department (stores like WM that is).

Trained security officers (uniformed) and plainclothes LP (independant of the security officers).

Security would act as well security for the store and the LP's would focus on shoplifters and internals. This of course if you were going this route.

A common trend among WM's in my area is to hire off duty police officers on the weekends and for overnights. I have seen the billing for off duty officers and they would be better off having armed contract guards or unarmed. They could probably do it inhouse cheaper as well.

[Chadly Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chadly]

Well, In Wisconsin, depending on how vocal the couple were, you might have have enough for Disorderly Conduct. (Nice Coverall Statute)

At least getting the PD involved would also do the trick, as Im sure notification to parents would be made.

[N. A. Corbier Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close N. A. Corbier]

Well, In Wisconsin, depending on how vocal the couple were, you might have have enough for Disorderly Conduct. (Nice Coverall Statute)

At least getting the PD involved would also do the trick, as Im sure notification to parents would be made.

This was Florida. There was no way I could of arrested the man, as he had not committed a felony in my presence. And before Bigdog comes running in with, "You can arrest for misdemeanor breaches of the peace..." That would require explaining to the Largo Police Department, and very few people knew that was possible in 2001.

[N. A. Corbier Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close N. A. Corbier]

I would say stores need a two fold LP/Security Department (stores like WM that is).

Trained security officers (uniformed) and plainclothes LP (independant of the security officers).

Security would act as well security for the store and the LP's would focus on shoplifters and internals. This of course if you were going this route.

A common trend among WM's in my area is to hire off duty police officers on the weekends and for overnights. I have seen the billing for off duty officers and they would be better off having armed contract guards or unarmed. They could probably do it inhouse cheaper as well.

They hire off duty police officers because the off duty police officers bring the agency's liability policy. Its "cheaper" for them to pawn all liability off on a law enforcement officer.

In some districts, they simply hire Securitas. This provides visible deterrence without the liability exposure of law enforcement action.

[LPGuy Member Find all posts View Profile Close LPGuy]

I think there is no difference between "security" and "loss prevention" in retail. It just depends on what a company wants to call the department that protects their assets. It's all the same.

Personally I dont think LP should be acting outside of protecting store assets which includes merchandise, assocaites and customers. To detain these two could be problematic for the LPO and the store.

You're exactly right, Security Consultant. And panther10758, yes, LP is to protect store assets and prevent loss. LP must therefore handle non-theft security and crime issues because allowing them to continue will harm the store, damage merchandise, and drive customers away.

During my time in LP, we handled all security issues. Theft, car prowling, lewd conduct, loitering, medical issues, etc. On rare occassions we would hire a uniformed officer to handle outside issues but that was only during the occasional hire volume period when we needed the extra help. However, we would always utilize mall security to handle many of our outside issues, but we were always the first responder. As soon as mall security arrived, we let them take over and we got back to the store.

[Guest Close panther10758]

When an LPO makes an arrest or detention of a subject not stealing he/she has now placed both him/herself and store is position to be lible for false arrest or other factors. LPO's are not trained in making sexual assault arrests! The easier solution is to knock on door wait for subjects to exit fitting room and while contacting mall Security and PD escort them from store. Then PD and/or Mall security can do their job! What happens to store when an LP makes such a stop? Process of detention and arrest can take an hour or more and what profit or benefit to store? None! While you deal with this situiation your store is being robbed! Let Mall Security and PD do their job an dlet LP do theirs! Its not Cops n Robbers its about protecting store assets!