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Another Mall Shooting: 5 Killed

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  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    Originally posted by T202
    Bill you are right. Civilian courses should offer the type of training you describe here. Here is a story about a gun owner who apparently didn't have the proper training.
    http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2476258.
    T202, thank you. I send this to my former boss. I asked him to remember an after action report I wrote after a particular conference which dealt with DOD guard firearms training. Command Civilian Personnel Officer came down on me and my boss like a ton of bricks for suggesting more thorough training in firearms training, me for writing the report and him for sending it to Civilian Personnel. Back then all that was needed to become a DOD guard was to have been a veteran, see lightning and hear thunder.
    Hopefully that has changed but for warm body security companies, I think not.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

    Leave a comment:


  • T202
    replied
    Originally posted by Bill Warnock
    Your point is well taken; however, there is a mandatory course in some jurisdictions that have "shoot or don't shoot" courses law enforcement is required to take and periodic refresher training. But these courses are expensive and not all jurisdictions can afford them.
    Target acquisition is hard at best when your heart is pounding in your throat. That is why I am an advocate of "stress" shooting wherein the shooters are required to either double time around a know distance range or run in place for a period of one minute. After that exercise, when shooters are at their designated positions and the ready right, ready left commands are issued and cleared, the range instructor issues the command to fire a particular number of rounds in a preselected string of fire. The first time the target looks like a shotgun pattern.
    Civilian courses for CCW do not offer that training. Those of us who are fortunate to have had that intense training have an appreciation of the three principles of shooting, breath control, sight alignment and trigger squeeze.
    Again, your observations are well founded and not lost on the other members of the forum.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill
    Bill you are right. Civilian courses should offer the type of training you describe here. Here is a story about a gun owner who apparently didn't have the proper training.
    http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2476258.

    Leave a comment:


  • glock27
    replied
    Originally posted by T202
    To renew your CPL in Michigan you have to "Completed at least three (3) hours of review of the pistol safety training course and has at least 1 hour of firing range time in the 6 months immediately preceding the renewal application." The renewal is every 5 years. In other words the law doesn't require much practice.
    That's what the law requires. Just as all LEOs and Armed Security Officer's don't do the minimum, all civilians with a CPL don't do the minimum.

    I personally try to shoot at least a couple of boxes of ammo per gun/caliber a month, as time and money allow. But at least a box of ammo from my primary Glock 27 40 S&W, that I carry everywhere the law allows.

    Hopefully this never happens again, but lets be real. We are all on the same side. I have 8 years military, 4 years armed security and 10+ years as a CPL holder. Additionally, I was shooting with my dad (a LEO) when I was very young. That does not mean that I am out looking for trouble, but JUST IN CASE, I'm prepared.

    Leave a comment:


  • T202
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr. Security
    How much practice does the law require after a "citizen" gets a permit? Having a firefight involving armed citizens is not a reasurring situation in my mind, nor that of the police who responded, IMO.
    To renew your CPL in Michigan you have to "Completed at least three (3) hours of review of the pistol safety training course and has at least 1 hour of firing range time in the 6 months immediately preceding the renewal application." The renewal is every 5 years. In other words the law doesn't require much practice.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr. Security
    replied
    Any current/former LEO's want to weigh in on this?

    Leave a comment:


  • glock27
    replied
    A lot of LEOs only shoot their service weapons when they go to qualify - usually 2 times a year. My step-brother; a CHP Officer said that his dept. would only give them 50 rounds a month to practice. And most of the officers do not even use those until right before they have to qualify, if they use them at all.

    I and many other people I know, shot a lot more than most officers. I'm not saying that LEOs are not good shots, but most of them from what I've seen do not practice as much as most people that I know that have CPLs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr. Security
    replied
    Originally posted by ACP01
    As to PD "profinciency" LEOs rounds fired to hits obtained ratio per shooting incident is dramatically higher than what civilians do. I can't remember where I read that to give a referance, sorry.

    Also if the family member was close enough to be killed then they were in danger of the active shooter anyway. No I am not being cavalier about this.

    My prior military training still sets conditions on my responses. In one of my duties the training was if needed to shoot the hostage to take out the BG in order to save more lives. Even today this is in my thought process and must be dealt with.

    Yes it would tear me apart but I still know that things do happen.

    Sometimes it is hard to put these things into words.
    Are you saying the police are more accurate?

    Leave a comment:


  • ACP01
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr. Security
    Not as likely, given their mandatory proficiency requirements. Let's assume that it did happen though. I personally would suffer more anguish knowing that a civilian (not a professional) killed a family member.
    As to PD "profinciency" LEOs rounds fired to hits obtained ratio per shooting incident is dramatically higher than what civilians do. I can't remember where I read that to give a referance, sorry.

    Also if the family member was close enough to be killed then they were in danger of the active shooter anyway. No I am not being cavalier about this.

    My prior military training still sets conditions on my responses. In one of my duties the training was if needed to shoot the hostage to take out the BG in order to save more lives. Even today this is in my thought process and must be dealt with.

    Yes it would tear me apart but I still know that things do happen.

    Sometimes it is hard to put these things into words.

    Leave a comment:


  • ACP01
    replied
    Originally posted by Chucky
    Not really the shooter S/O or police will not stay there. They will be removed of their weapon and brought back to the station and interrogated (debriefed) and relived of duty until an inquest decides if it was a good shooting or not. Doesn't matter if the bad guy was Lee Harvey Oswald or Mickey Mouse. The only difference is the cop will be paid until cleared the S/O will pump sand until cleared.

    Sorry, In wanting to not make a long statment I ommited a critical part..
    I meant to say normal (?) every day incidents such as shoplifting, purse snatching and other "non-violent" crimes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chucky
    replied
    Originally posted by ACP01
    If my family were in a mall (or anywhere else) with an active shooter situation I would not give a [email protected] who the person was that stopped the shooter whether it was off-duty LEO, Security, or CCW holder, or 82nd Airborne...just get the shooter out of action.

    As to prefering an off-duty LEO or armed Security I would prefer having armed Security. (not the reasons you think

    Most LEOs making an arrest go back on their agency time during transport and booking thus leaving one less or no security available. The armed SO will stil be there.
    Not really the shooter S/O or police will not stay there. They will be removed of their weapon and brought back to the station and interrogated (debriefed) and relived of duty until an inquest decides if it was a good shooting or not. Doesn't matter if the bad guy was Lee Harvey Oswald or Mickey Mouse. The only difference is the cop will be paid until cleared the S/O will pump sand until cleared.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr. Security
    Not as likely, given their mandatory proficiency requirements. Let's assume that it did happen though. I personally would suffer more anguish knowing that a civilian (not a professional) killed a family member.
    Your point is well taken; however, there is a mandatory course in some jurisdictions that have "shoot or don't shoot" courses law enforcement is required to take and periodic refresher training. But these courses are expensive and not all jurisdictions can afford them.
    Target acquisition is hard at best when your heart is pounding in your throat. That is why I am an advocate of "stress" shooting wherein the shooters are required to either double time around a know distance range or run in place for a period of one minute. After that exercise, when shooters are at their designated positions and the ready right, ready left commands are issued and cleared, the range instructor issues the command to fire a particular number of rounds in a preselected string of fire. The first time the target looks like a shotgun pattern.
    Civilian courses for CCW do not offer that training. Those of us who are fortunate to have had that intense training have an appreciation of the three principles of shooting, breath control, sight alignment and trigger squeeze.
    Again, your observations are well founded and not lost on the other members of the forum.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr. Security
    replied
    Originally posted by ACP01
    What if the LEO hit the family member?
    Not as likely, given their mandatory proficiency requirements. Let's assume that it did happen though. I personally would suffer more anguish knowing that a civilian (not a professional) killed a family member.

    Leave a comment:


  • ACP01
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr. Security
    What if this CCW holder took out the shooter, but unfortunately also hit a family member in the process. What then?
    What if the LEO hit the family member?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr. Security
    replied
    Originally posted by ACP01
    If my family were in a mall (or anywhere else) with an active shooter situation I would not give a [email protected] who the person was that stopped the shooter whether it was off-duty LEO, Security, or CCW holder, or 82nd Airborne...just get the shooter out of action.

    As to prefering an off-duty LEO or armed Security I would prefer having armed Security. (not the reasons you think

    Most LEOs making an arrest go back on their agency time during transport and booking thus leaving one less or no security available. The armed SO will stil be there.
    What if this CCW holder took out the shooter, but unfortunately also hit a family member in the process. What then?

    Leave a comment:


  • ACP01
    replied
    If my family were in a mall (or anywhere else) with an active shooter situation I would not give a [email protected] who the person was that stopped the shooter whether it was off-duty LEO, Security, or CCW holder, or 82nd Airborne...just get the shooter out of action.

    As to prefering an off-duty LEO or armed Security I would prefer having armed Security. (not the reasons you think

    Most LEOs making an arrest go back on their agency time during transport and booking thus leaving one less or no security available. The armed SO will stil be there.

    Leave a comment:

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