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Another Mall Shooting: 5 Killed

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  • #16
    Originally posted by glock27
    The mall attacked is also posted as a no carry for people with concealed carry permits. If the mall had not been so worried about keeping legally armed citizens out of the mall the off duty LEO might have had some help a lot sooner.

    I personally do not enter any business that I can not carry my legal firearm.

    The perp on this was a Bosnian national and reportedly a muslim. Put together, it looks like another islamic terrorist.
    There have been plenty of these types of killings done by christians, jews, athesits (sp?) etc etc. Let's not junp tp conclusions that it was a terrorists. Doing so is not going to hhelp the situation,
    I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
    Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

    Comment


    • #17
      The Rands suggestion of installing metal detectors would not work IMO. Several reasons. One being that most malls have many entrances and who would man them with search authority? Second has Rand noticed just how much metal the kids and some adults are wearing these days. The things would be beeping all day with just the incoming folks.

      As for my earlier post I do not mean to insinuate that all armed security would not be capable of manning a mall roaming post but I do feel that any armed guys would need a boat load of more training than we get to man a static post. The static post is often occupied with people that know what they should or shouldn't do when it comes to the resident armed guy.

      In a mall you have so many devised types of people that have some of the misconceptions about security people that I could see things going south real fast.

      I have seen this myself when a mall security guard was sneaked up from behind and told to stick em up. Turned out to be some of his friends joking around. I would guess that only a total fool would try this with an active police officer. The S/O was not armed but never the less not a cool thing.

      If I was offered an armed position at a mall I would jump on the opportunity with both feet. My friends are to dam old to fool around.
      THE AVERAGE RESPONSE TIME FOR A 911 CALL IS FOUR MINUTES
      THE AVERAGE RESPONSE TIME FOR A .357 MAGNUM ROUND IS 1400 FEET PER SECOND?
      http://www.boondocksaints.com/

      Comment


      • #18
        So, it turns out, I knew the guy who did the shooting. He worked in a hopsital scrubs store, where my fiancee shops on a regular basis. I have had him help me a few times pick out items, though he was always extremely quiet, odd, and gave me a sense of uneasiness. He was nervous when I showed up to the store one day with my girl, and I was in MY uniform. Also odd......the off-duty LEO used to train with me at the jiu-jitsu gym, and the other four cops involved are all personal friends of mine from the local gang/narcotics task force. SLC is a city where everyone knows everyone through someone or personally. Odd place.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Professional Rent-a-Cop
          So, it turns out, I knew the guy who did the shooting. He worked in a hopsital scrubs store, where my fiancee shops on a regular basis. I have had him help me a few times pick out items, though he was always extremely quiet, odd, and gave me a sense of uneasiness. He was nervous when I showed up to the store one day with my girl, and I was in MY uniform. Also odd......the off-duty LEO used to train with me at the jiu-jitsu gym, and the other four cops involved are all personal friends of mine from the local gang/narcotics task force. SLC is a city where everyone knows everyone through someone or personally. Odd place.
          You and your fiancee are safe but shaken, the officers who responded are safe but shaken and we pray for those who were murdered and injured. We as a society are again asking the eternal question, why did the shooter act in such a manner? You stated it best, you felt unease when he was waited on you and when he saw you in uniform he sent detectable signals.
          I was in Salt Lake three times, once as inspector for Tooele Army Depot and twice as a representative for our Headquarters for Chemical Weapons Conferences. The police and people in Salt Lake were warm and gracious to me and other members of the Conferences.
          Ogden is the home of Hill AFB and many of the police officers in the surrounding areas were once members of Air Police/Security/Security Forces. We were taught in the military as a police forces to run toward the sound of gunfire and thinking on our feet at the same time, cover, target selection, move and above all, communicate with each other.
          If the news media got it right, the Ogden off duty officer was not wearing his bullet resistant vest while in civilian clothes shopping with his wife.
          Enjoy the day,
          Bill

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by glock27
            The mall attacked is also posted as a no carry for people with concealed carry permits. If the mall had not been so worried about keeping legally armed citizens out of the mall the off duty LEO might have had some help a lot sooner.

            I personally do not enter any business that I can not carry my legal firearm.

            The perp on this was a Bosnian national and reportedly a muslim. Put together, it looks like another islamic terrorist.
            How much practice does the law require after a "citizen" gets a permit? Having a firefight involving armed citizens is not a reasurring situation in my mind, nor that of the police who responded, IMO.
            Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

            Comment


            • #21
              If my family were in a mall (or anywhere else) with an active shooter situation I would not give a [email protected] who the person was that stopped the shooter whether it was off-duty LEO, Security, or CCW holder, or 82nd Airborne...just get the shooter out of action.

              As to prefering an off-duty LEO or armed Security I would prefer having armed Security. (not the reasons you think

              Most LEOs making an arrest go back on their agency time during transport and booking thus leaving one less or no security available. The armed SO will stil be there.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by ACP01
                If my family were in a mall (or anywhere else) with an active shooter situation I would not give a [email protected] who the person was that stopped the shooter whether it was off-duty LEO, Security, or CCW holder, or 82nd Airborne...just get the shooter out of action.

                As to prefering an off-duty LEO or armed Security I would prefer having armed Security. (not the reasons you think

                Most LEOs making an arrest go back on their agency time during transport and booking thus leaving one less or no security available. The armed SO will stil be there.
                What if this CCW holder took out the shooter, but unfortunately also hit a family member in the process. What then?
                Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Mr. Security
                  What if this CCW holder took out the shooter, but unfortunately also hit a family member in the process. What then?
                  What if the LEO hit the family member?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by ACP01
                    What if the LEO hit the family member?
                    Not as likely, given their mandatory proficiency requirements. Let's assume that it did happen though. I personally would suffer more anguish knowing that a civilian (not a professional) killed a family member.
                    Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mr. Security
                      Not as likely, given their mandatory proficiency requirements. Let's assume that it did happen though. I personally would suffer more anguish knowing that a civilian (not a professional) killed a family member.
                      Your point is well taken; however, there is a mandatory course in some jurisdictions that have "shoot or don't shoot" courses law enforcement is required to take and periodic refresher training. But these courses are expensive and not all jurisdictions can afford them.
                      Target acquisition is hard at best when your heart is pounding in your throat. That is why I am an advocate of "stress" shooting wherein the shooters are required to either double time around a know distance range or run in place for a period of one minute. After that exercise, when shooters are at their designated positions and the ready right, ready left commands are issued and cleared, the range instructor issues the command to fire a particular number of rounds in a preselected string of fire. The first time the target looks like a shotgun pattern.
                      Civilian courses for CCW do not offer that training. Those of us who are fortunate to have had that intense training have an appreciation of the three principles of shooting, breath control, sight alignment and trigger squeeze.
                      Again, your observations are well founded and not lost on the other members of the forum.
                      Enjoy the day,
                      Bill

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ACP01
                        If my family were in a mall (or anywhere else) with an active shooter situation I would not give a [email protected] who the person was that stopped the shooter whether it was off-duty LEO, Security, or CCW holder, or 82nd Airborne...just get the shooter out of action.

                        As to prefering an off-duty LEO or armed Security I would prefer having armed Security. (not the reasons you think

                        Most LEOs making an arrest go back on their agency time during transport and booking thus leaving one less or no security available. The armed SO will stil be there.
                        Not really the shooter S/O or police will not stay there. They will be removed of their weapon and brought back to the station and interrogated (debriefed) and relived of duty until an inquest decides if it was a good shooting or not. Doesn't matter if the bad guy was Lee Harvey Oswald or Mickey Mouse. The only difference is the cop will be paid until cleared the S/O will pump sand until cleared.
                        THE AVERAGE RESPONSE TIME FOR A 911 CALL IS FOUR MINUTES
                        THE AVERAGE RESPONSE TIME FOR A .357 MAGNUM ROUND IS 1400 FEET PER SECOND?
                        http://www.boondocksaints.com/

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Chucky
                          Not really the shooter S/O or police will not stay there. They will be removed of their weapon and brought back to the station and interrogated (debriefed) and relived of duty until an inquest decides if it was a good shooting or not. Doesn't matter if the bad guy was Lee Harvey Oswald or Mickey Mouse. The only difference is the cop will be paid until cleared the S/O will pump sand until cleared.

                          Sorry, In wanting to not make a long statment I ommited a critical part..
                          I meant to say normal (?) every day incidents such as shoplifting, purse snatching and other "non-violent" crimes.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mr. Security
                            Not as likely, given their mandatory proficiency requirements. Let's assume that it did happen though. I personally would suffer more anguish knowing that a civilian (not a professional) killed a family member.
                            As to PD "profinciency" LEOs rounds fired to hits obtained ratio per shooting incident is dramatically higher than what civilians do. I can't remember where I read that to give a referance, sorry.

                            Also if the family member was close enough to be killed then they were in danger of the active shooter anyway. No I am not being cavalier about this.

                            My prior military training still sets conditions on my responses. In one of my duties the training was if needed to shoot the hostage to take out the BG in order to save more lives. Even today this is in my thought process and must be dealt with.

                            Yes it would tear me apart but I still know that things do happen.

                            Sometimes it is hard to put these things into words.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by ACP01
                              As to PD "profinciency" LEOs rounds fired to hits obtained ratio per shooting incident is dramatically higher than what civilians do. I can't remember where I read that to give a referance, sorry.

                              Also if the family member was close enough to be killed then they were in danger of the active shooter anyway. No I am not being cavalier about this.

                              My prior military training still sets conditions on my responses. In one of my duties the training was if needed to shoot the hostage to take out the BG in order to save more lives. Even today this is in my thought process and must be dealt with.

                              Yes it would tear me apart but I still know that things do happen.

                              Sometimes it is hard to put these things into words.
                              Are you saying the police are more accurate?
                              Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                A lot of LEOs only shoot their service weapons when they go to qualify - usually 2 times a year. My step-brother; a CHP Officer said that his dept. would only give them 50 rounds a month to practice. And most of the officers do not even use those until right before they have to qualify, if they use them at all.

                                I and many other people I know, shot a lot more than most officers. I'm not saying that LEOs are not good shots, but most of them from what I've seen do not practice as much as most people that I know that have CPLs.

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