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N. A. Corbier · 03-01-2007, 01:52 PM

Ok, now for the question.

Your company does not require you to carry intermediate weapons? You have three levels of force: Presence/Verbal, Empty Hand, Lethal.

How will you articulate that if you are required to subdue someone for whatever reason (they're attacking you, they are under arrest, etc) that you had no choice to go from empty hand control to lethal force?

Qarlo X64 · 03-01-2007, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by N. A. Corbier

Ok, now for the question.

Your company does not require you to carry intermediate weapons? You have three levels of force: Presence/Verbal, Empty Hand, Lethal.

How will you articulate that if you are required to subdue someone for whatever reason (they're attacking you, they are under arrest, etc) that you had no choice to go from empty hand control to lethal force?

Well the company I work for leaves it at your discretion as to whether or not you want to carry stuff like Pepper Spray. Most of the non commissioned guys are purely to be O&R and keep a safe distance and/or in their vehicle when not conducting their required foot patrols [where appliccable]. For LV III S/Os it's a bit different, our 1st priority is to O&R as would any PSC (Private Security Contractor) would have S/Os do, however... just like we get to field with whatever firearm of our choosing, so do we get the option to carry non lethal stuff like pepper spray. I'm fully qualified myself (can't speak for the others, not everyone took the LV III course through the company, I didn't as I came from another company) in the safe use of Baton, Hand Cuffing, Pepper Spray and carry of a concealed knife be it straight no folding, folding and lock blade under TX Penal Code PC 46.01.6A; BUT... I prefer not to carry stuff like Pepper Spray or use an Asp if this is what you mean by "intermediate" weapons, from having learned the hard way.

Since PSOs aren't "Peace Officer's" I'm not overly concerned with arrests, and most companies down here that I've seen don't want you to get involved in that capacity if it isn't neccessary. Thus even on a CRE post, the "Regulation Enforcement" part is in actively (from a professional but audible distance) making aware of site regs and open container laws etc, to any in violation of and seeing that they adhere to them. If not, it's documented in the report [BTW I'm speaking of HUD funded complexes mostly with Curfews, non loitering regs, etc.] and their complex will evict them by the 3rd violation, possibly 2nd violation depending on how bad. If there is problems of Criminal trespassing then verbal CTWs are given as well, and ANY serious problem is radioed into HQ and the 43s roll (Police). The LEOs here don't like having to be called out, so if they show up even for BS, they'll haul the ppl off the properties for the night. The handcuffs are only for if say someone is getting beat, I have to break it up and "Detain" them until the proper LEOs can arrive to remove them off property to the Magistrate. I for one have only had to cuff someone twice in 5 years, because I get "compliance" through being fair but firm with my command prescense.

Other S/Os I've seen have a hard time, I for one know how to get (like 95% of the time) even the most violatile gangsta' types to chill out and comply with regs by reasoning it out, but letting them know I'm not there to be their friend. Taking what I learned in my unofficial MCST [Military Combat Security Training] from two friends who were USAF Air Police/SPs for 8 years, I do put a slight militant lean in my command prescense which helps. I can subdue multiple ppl pretty easily unarmed without hurting them, training most don't get in their required 38hrs of LV III training. But I've found the most effective method to Regulation Complicance is though "Suggestive Psychological Deterrency" within the Command Presense area of the Force Continuum.

What I mean by that is simple. To a regular every day ppl on government housing posts, a military bearing makes ppl feel safer I've found, and they usually identify with you on a level and usually have a family member in the armed forces. They're willing to help you with their knowledge about the bad guys in the complex and who's riding dirty, etc. Now the would be trouble makers and criminals (most) they see a high & tight hair cutted S/O with the USGI .45 on my hip (something hardly anyone carries), the 3 and sometimes Quad case for spare mags, and me with a black military cover with the words "Security" in white, one set of cuffs and a maglite, and question if they want to find out if I'd send them to hell. I'm professional and overly detailed in my report writing, courteous, always ramrod straight and with full military bearing, and it works. Usually the bad apples want to discuss what firearm you have and stuff and you can blab for about a minute or two, then "Alright guys, it's time to head in." And through **** talking they comply. Thus to me, and again speaking for me. I don't see the need for intermediate stuff. The only way I'll ever draw my duty weapon is if there is no other option left and it comes into use. Which is how I was trained prior to Commission training. Pepper Spray gets into the fabrics of your clothes and can make you ill as it did me when I had to use it once back in 2003 on an attacker. I hope this answers what you were asking me, sorry if I got long winded, but I take pride in what I do and quadraupla check everything. I've been in scrapes and held my own and most of the PO/LEOs know me in the respective districts (as do the trouble makers who hate it when I'm on the post because they don't push me around like the do other officers).

UtahProtectionForce · 03-01-2007, 07:24 PM

welcome to the board! glad to see you were able to finally log in and post :P

tlangsr · 03-02-2007, 01:50 AM

welcome to the board, as far as pepper spray goes I prefer the foam. It has always worked well for me.

Qarlo X64 · 03-02-2007, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by UtahProtectionForce

welcome to the board! glad to see you were able to finally log in and post :P

Yeah, thanks for the welcome UTF, part of the reason I was glad to find out about this forums community is indeed to compare notes and see what things are like elsewhere. Even with the MCST I have along with MCT (with things like Map reading, in-field suvivalism, Micro Terrain Usage & MOS 8541, Combat shooting, etc. That part doesn't really help in a civilian environment) + the required 38hrs of LV III training... well, there are just too many loose ends in the Private Security sector. While it's disturbing to see that a lot of ppl here have similar gripes in other threads, it's also a little comforting to know I'm not alone in both my disgust in certain areas, but also in the fact many take pride in their work and aren't just slackers looking to collect a check.

My main gripe is that I never feel any gratitude from anyone other than the non violent / trouble maker types at the government housing complexes who are glad you're there. Well at least me and about 4 other S/Os from my company. They know us four in particular get the bad apples to comply with regs and ain't going to have dirt bags ride rough shod on us or anyone on the property. Their fun is in messing with the poop butt security officers who run at the sight of more than 2 of them, or will be buddy buddy with them. I mean sure, I talk their street lingo and speak to them with a modicum of respect that every man or woman should automatically have, but regs are regs and if you're not outside doing stuff there's no problems. THE PROBLEMS I see are when serving at high rise office complexes, *some* larger Construction Zones which are more like cities onto themselves in perpetual construction, and Credit Unions. If You're too detailed in your report writing and actually get involved (meaning verbally investigating something, or demanding proper ID checks with DL numbers, name of person, vehicle make, model, LP number and maybe even the VIN number) someone gets a hair up their butt. "It's not neccessary to detail to this degree in your DOR." Which I say BS. It's the one time you don't that something will go wrong and then you're screwed, and I'm a firm believer in Murphy's Law. And it's been in my experience that even the really good companies just want someone who looks good in uniform and knows mainly the company regs and shows up to work, does O&R and calls it a day. With me it's a way of life. I was raised old guard military by a DI for a father who actually put me through 60s era type boot camp growing up, and all his Vietnam buddies who came in and out the house throughout my life each taught me stuff the average civvie (without military service) doesn't know. I was taught 100% or don't bother, and the motto rings true.

"Always alert, Always Prepared/Resolved, and On The Move."

When I'm on a post, it's all getting reported, and even if it's not required it's going to be logged who was there, what you're doing there, what time you arrived, departed etc. And the people complaining about "too detailed" reports (meaning don't ID everyone and everything you see. Ha! I'd ID the President himself knowing full well who he is if he's on my post) are from two types of losers. The first kind are other S/Os who aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing and have no heart/love for the job, fall alseep all the time, etc. They know they'll be shown up if the other person (usually me) IS doing their job. Or it's the second kind, which are personnel within high rises etc, who are having sexual affairs and trying to sneak ppl into their areas and what not, that don't want to be found out. And if it's not secret trysts then it's someone misappropriating stuff or worse and contractee's employees assume every S/O is a Gomer Pyle. My thing is, do what you're supposed to do and no problem, but don't hassle me for doing my job. Thus for me I love what I do but I'm often drinking a bottle or two of Malox from all of the idoitic contrivances that occur, and it's never Joe Bumble**** that has to hear the occassional BS, but only us "serious" types who get thumbs up one minute and sneers the next. But that's how it goes. Like I said, glad to see I'm not alone here.

Originally posted by tlangsr

welcome to the board, as far as pepper spray goes I prefer the foam. It has always worked well for me.

Thanks for the welcome. You know I've never tried the Foam, I'll have to look into that. I wasn't trained on that, only the "spray". And most of the Sheriffs I know in the CRE patrol posts areas won't even answer a call if they know someone's been pepper sprayed because they hate the mess I went through. You know, the guy puking and the stuff getting into the fabrics of his squad car or his uniform as he puts a guy into the car etc. I guess it's for that reason I'd rather not carry it, but if the foam works good I might consider that as an option.

UtahProtectionForce · 03-02-2007, 03:17 PM

I recently had a client remove the "inbox" where my activity reports where supposed to go, because i was too detailed. and they wanted an report basically say (everything is quiet and secure) i always put down what i actually did, checked x number of construction units no unathorized personal on site, patrol of property completed at xxx hrs.. or when the occasion problem did occur, i.e. ! homeless male subject found on property, along applecross way, asked the gentleman to remove himself and his property, after being searched to assure he did not obtain any construction supplies......

and well needless to say the head contractor whom was my client contact took away the inbox for my forms so now.. at my post i am no longer required to turn in daily activity reports or incident reports, but my company continues to make me fill them out and keep them in a binder, just in case the contractor decides he wants them again, then he will recieve all the backlog :P

Bill Warnock · 03-02-2007, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by UtahProtectionForce

I recently had a client remove the "inbox" where my activity reports where supposed to go, because i was too detailed. and they wanted an report basically say (everything is quiet and secure) i always put down what i actually did, checked x number of construction units no unathorized personal on site, patrol of property completed at xxx hrs.. or when the occasion problem did occur, i.e. ! homeless male subject found on property, along applecross way, asked the gentleman to remove himself and his property, after being searched to assure he did not obtain any construction supplies......

and well needless to say the head contractor whom was my client contact took away the inbox for my forms so now.. at my post i am no longer required to turn in daily activity reports or incident reports, but my company continues to make me fill them out and keep them in a binder, just in case the contractor decides he wants them again, then he will recieve all the backlog :P

Your company is not stupid, the in box got lost, accidently taken, etc, etc.
When they come back on you and your company, the answer will be simply, "We knew there was some confusion and we maintained a running log since we know that is what "you" would want us to do. We always have the client's best interests at heart."
You can bet money, marbles and chalk there will be no threatened court actions.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

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