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  • EVILjbf
    replied
    wisconsin in the hizzie

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  • Pointman
    replied
    Special Investigator

    We've had the same problem with the same poster on OpenCarry.com, although over there "Special Investigator" is "Bunker."

    Some of what "Special Investigator" says is true, and I won't argue that. Judges in Milwaukee can, for the most part, do what they want, and the police will let it slide. Conversely, police will, in many cases, arrest everyday people for open carry, even if there is no law against it.

    However, the core of what "Special Investigator" says is false. Openly carrying a firearm in Wisconsin is legal, as long as the many restrictions are followed. People open carry in public, have been stopped by police, and carried on without problem, depending on the officer. I open carry daily and have had no problems with police, and have seen them pass by on many occasions, usually when I'm carrying a full-size .45.

    I don't open carry at the fair or at malls, because that will lead to significant problems during police interaction, namely a wrongful arrest, as detailed in reply letters from police departments to OpenCarry members. (Letters are found in the Wisconsin forum.) The police or department opinion is just that, but the law is the law, even if it is ignored. "Parabellum" (OpenCarry member) was arrested for legally openly carrying a firearm in Milwaukee, but has not been charged by the DA. We'll have to wait to see how this all pans out.

    Meanwhile, the Wisconsin Patriots are holding an open carry picnic, and have held other public open carry events successfully, and without problem. Loaded firearms are secured in positive-retention holsters, openly, without causing panic, arrest, or endangering public safety, even that of "the children." Most people don't even notice anyone is armed, such as at the petition signing event, until they ask if it's legal and they're told that open carry is legal in Wisconsin, "just as I'm doing right now." Their eyes usually light up for a few seconds, but that's it.

    Hopefully this insight helps people understand Wisconsin's laws as they currently stand, not as they stood years ago. This information should in no way be taken as an attack on any member's viewpoints, and expresses my own thoughts on the topic, not the thoughts of any other individual or group.

    OpenCarry Thread: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...ghlight=Bunker
    Last edited by Pointman; 07-21-2008, 02:15 PM. Reason: Added intentions of the post.

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  • Special Investigator
    replied
    Sorry but you are wrong.

    Sorry to burst your bubble but what you posted above don't mean squat! It has nothing to do with going armed in public.

    Section 105-34 City & County of Milwaukee ordance says:

    It is unlawful for any person to go armed with a firearm in public (on or about the person) unless the firearm is unloaded and fully incased. The case must be zippered, buttoned, ect. completly and no part of the firearm can be exposed.

    165.85 states the only exception is if you are a peace officer, private investigator or security person (while on duty), and posess a valid, current firearms "Blue Card" issued by the Department of Regulation & Licensing under the authority of the Wisconsin Dept of Justice.

    This applies to any town, city or community.

    http://cc.milwaukee.gov:81/isysnativ...rl8cd/2/hilite

    Yes, you may be arrested for disorderly conduct. However, no judge has found a person guilty of disorderly conduct for peaceably going armed in public.

    You realize there was open carry at the NRA convention last year, correct? No headlines about people being arrested for it.
    I WAS at the NRA convention for 2 days and NOBODY was armed. If they did, they would of been arrested, had their firearm taken away and they wouldn't of gotten it back. And I say this as a former Milwaukee police officer who still has contacts and friends currently on the department. The convention center is County property and you cannot go armed on any property owned, leased or rented by city, county or US government unless your on public land engaged in lawful hunting. Period!

    You usally can walk down the side of a highway in a rural area, up north, ect., while engaged in lawful hunting and get away with without getting arrested.

    You will be arrested and charged for D.C. under 947.01 and found guilty. I've personaly arrested and know of dozens of people who have been CONVICTED.


    I've gotten in a few arguements over this issue on several other boards and I was right every time. If you don't believe me, then I challange you to go armed and walk down a public street, park, city/county property, etc. Walk past a police station while your firearm is on your hip openly displayed. See how far you get. Then again just go to a district station and ask a police supervisor there. Remember, firearms ARE regulated.

    Let me ask you, if I may, are you currently working as a security guard someware? Where and for whom?

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Alright, here we go.

    Starting with Chapter 134.58, Wisconsin Statutes (Annotated)
    134.58 Use of unauthorized persons as officers. Any person who, individually, in concert with another or as agent or officer of any firm, joint-stock company or corporation, uses, employs, aids or assists in employing any body of armed persons to act as militia, police or peace officers for the protection of persons or property or for the suppression of strikes, not being authorized by the laws of this state to so act, is guilty of a Class I felony.

    This makes it illegal to raise a private army or police force (police does not imply public officer in this state, strangely), who are armed in their course of their duties, to protect or break strikes. "not being authorized by the laws of this state" means that they are not: 1) A public law enforcement officer in a law enforcement agency raised by the state or subdivision (A cop), 2) A private security or private police officer raised by a corporation pursuant to Chapter 440 of Wisconsin Statutes, or a soldier of the Wisconsin National Guard or Wisconsin Air National Guard.

    If you are not protecting any thing or suppressing strikes, this law does not apply to you.
    ---

    Article 1, Chapter 25 of the Wisconsin State Constitition reads:
    The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose.

    Our state constitution is law. We have the right to keep and bear arms for "any lawful purpose."

    Purposes and situations that make carry unlawful:
    941.235 Posession of a firearm in a government building w/o permission.
    941.237 Posession of a loaded firearm in a tavern or other place that serves liquor.
    167.31(2)(b) DRL's rule that says hunters (read anybody) may not carry a loaded gun in a car.

    Preemption by towns is illegal...
    66.0409(2) Except as provided in subs. (3) and (4), no political subdivision may enact an ordinance or adopt a resolution that regulates the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permitting, registration or taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components, unless the ordinance or resolution is the same as or similar to, and no more stringent than, a state statute.

    Disorderly Conduct, the only charge that some Attorney General's staffer came up with to "counter the gun threat" is as follows:
    947.01 Disorderly conduct. Whoever, in a public or private place, engages in violent, abusive, indecent, profane, boisterous, unreasonably loud or otherwise disorderly conduct under circumstances in which the conduct tends to cause or provoke a disturbance is guilty of a Class B misdemeanor.

    Chapter 941.20, Subchapter 3, Weapons, governs going armed while in public. There's a whole bunch of rules about where you can't go armed, but it doesn't specifically outlaw "going armed" in public.

    If you can show me a specific statute that makes open carry illegal in this state, I'll conceed the point. However, it has been proven time and time again that one simply doesn't exist.

    Yes, you may be arrested for disorderly conduct. However, no judge has found a person guilty of disorderly conduct for peaceably going armed in public.

    You realize there was open carry at the NRA convention last year, correct? No headlines about people being arrested for it.

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  • Special Investigator
    replied
    Originally posted by ff000525
    There is no WI statute that makes it illegal to open carry.
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    There is no CCW law in Wisconsin. Only a peace officer, by virtue of his office, may carry a concealed weapon.
    You CAN get permission from a judge, police chief or sheriff to carry concealed. I personaly have gotten permission from a Dodge and Milwaukee County judge to carry concealed a couple times. It was only tempoary while I was working on a investigation for the judge(s). Also, a sheriff or police chief has the discression to issue a tempoary CCW to you if you show cause that you need one such as if your life is in inamint danger, etc. It is very seldom done, but it has been done.

    Yes, it IS illegal to go armed in public except for the reasons I said above. Walk down any public street (or public way) and see if the police let you do it. In Milwaukee, Waukesha, Racine, Madison, etc., or any other city you will surly be arrested and go to jail, your firearm will be taken away, guaranteed. Usally you will be charged with D.C. I will look up the statute reguarding the "Blue Card" for you and post later. Off the top of my head, look up RL 34.01, RL 34.015, etc. I'll get the exact statutes for you.

    (we should have a seperate thread on this subject)
    Last edited by Special Investigator; 11-06-2006, 08:49 PM.

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Ah, yes, Eddie Eagle. I was thinking about that, as well. And I used to hate the kids wanting to see my gun, see my speedloaders, see my ASP, see my handcuffs, see my OC, see my radio, see my Nextel, see my...

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  • EMTjon
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    I believe gun safety should be taught in schools. Not marksmanship or anything, but "THIS IS A GUN. THIS IS HOW IT WORKS. HANDLE IT. GET IT OUT OF YOUR SYSTEM. This is how to safe it. This is how to shoot it." Many times, children will pick up a gun, ignoring "DON'T TOUCH IT, RUN AWAY,TELL AN ADULT" and "accidents" happen. They think it won't go off, because they've never touched one before and they don't understand how it functions. Why teach theory of operation? Because if the child knows how the thing shoots, how easy it is to pull the trigger (I've heard that one before, actually, he thought it would be hard), they'll have a better respect for it. Like any other device, it is better to have respect than fear for it.
    The Boy Scouts of America do it well. It would be nice to see it in public schools, but that would never happen. The closest I got in public schools was my 5th Grade DARE officer (10+ years ago) explaining that we were NEVER to touch his duty rig.

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Originally posted by Rooney
    Welcome Wisconsin,
    I am originally from Minnesota so I know what cold is like. I live in Arizona now and it sucks being in 80 degree weather in November . I had to break out my Parka last night, it got as cold as 50. Burrrrr.

    As for CCW. I don't know the laws in Wisconsin but here in Arizona it is pretty simple to get. Background check with fingerprints, no felonies, 8 hour class. I know there are some here on this forum that think CCW makes us more unsafe. The fact is that states that have CCW have had a decrease in violent crimes against individuals (not all states but the majority). It is harder for a person to go to the point of violence if they do not know if the person is armed. I have had my CCW for 7 years now and have never had to use it (thankfully). I have only had to show my weapon once because a man was beating a woman with a bat. As soon as I drew my weapon he dropped the bat and laid on the ground until the police showed up. One of the officers even stated to me that I had every right to just pull the trigger while he had the bat in his hand. I thought that was too far as he did comply right away when I drew. She had a broke collar bone, arm, and a fractured skull but will be fine. He got 17 years for attempted murder. That is just my example of CCW. I hear of scenarios all the time in which lives were saved by someone with a CCW.

    For or against guns is everyones right. If someone chooses to have the right under the 2nd Ammendment they should be allowed with the proper training. I also believe that gun safety should be taught in more schools than it is now. The more people are educated about the safety and use of firearms the safer we all will be. Especially if the preverbial crap hits the fan like these extremists want it to.

    Together we stand, divided we fall.
    I believe gun safety should be taught in schools. Not marksmanship or anything, but "THIS IS A GUN. THIS IS HOW IT WORKS. HANDLE IT. GET IT OUT OF YOUR SYSTEM. This is how to safe it. This is how to shoot it." Many times, children will pick up a gun, ignoring "DON'T TOUCH IT, RUN AWAY,TELL AN ADULT" and "accidents" happen. They think it won't go off, because they've never touched one before and they don't understand how it functions. Why teach theory of operation? Because if the child knows how the thing shoots, how easy it is to pull the trigger (I've heard that one before, actually, he thought it would be hard), they'll have a better respect for it. Like any other device, it is better to have respect than fear for it.

    Arizona is also an open carry state, amusingly enough. You can find out which are and which aren't on opencarry.org, which is a website which gives a basis to start investigating if a state is open carry or not. "Gold Star" means nobody cares if you do or not.

    There is no CCW law in Wisconsin. Only a peace officer, by virtue of his office, may carry a concealed weapon.
    Last edited by N. A. Corbier; 11-06-2006, 01:27 PM.

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Originally posted by ff000525
    There is no WI statute that makes it illegal to open carry. When I took Criminal Law, about this time last year, I was amazed at how many people actually thought that there was. There may be local, municipal rules regarding it, such as in Racine (just north of me), it is practically impossible to leave the city with a firearm, cased or uncased, without voilating city ordinace. I'd have to look up on the exact wording of the ordinance though. Since Racine is modeled after Milwaukee in many ways, I'm sure Milwaukee has similar rules. I have yet to find anything of the sort locally.
    State preemption of local gun ordinances. They can't regulate posession, only discharge within city limits.

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  • Rooney
    replied
    Welcome Wisconsin,
    I am originally from Minnesota so I know what cold is like. I live in Arizona now and it sucks being in 80 degree weather in November . I had to break out my Parka last night, it got as cold as 50. Burrrrr.

    As for CCW. I don't know the laws in Wisconsin but here in Arizona it is pretty simple to get. Background check with fingerprints, no felonies, 8 hour class. I know there are some here on this forum that think CCW makes us more unsafe. The fact is that states that have CCW have had a decrease in violent crimes against individuals (not all states but the majority). It is harder for a person to go to the point of violence if they do not know if the person is armed. I have had my CCW for 7 years now and have never had to use it (thankfully). I have only had to show my weapon once because a man was beating a woman with a bat. As soon as I drew my weapon he dropped the bat and laid on the ground until the police showed up. One of the officers even stated to me that I had every right to just pull the trigger while he had the bat in his hand. I thought that was too far as he did comply right away when I drew. She had a broke collar bone, arm, and a fractured skull but will be fine. He got 17 years for attempted murder. That is just my example of CCW. I hear of scenarios all the time in which lives were saved by someone with a CCW.

    For or against guns is everyones right. If someone chooses to have the right under the 2nd Ammendment they should be allowed with the proper training. I also believe that gun safety should be taught in more schools than it is now. The more people are educated about the safety and use of firearms the safer we all will be. Especially if the preverbial crap hits the fan like these extremists want it to.

    Together we stand, divided we fall.

    Leave a comment:


  • ff000525
    replied
    There is no WI statute that makes it illegal to open carry. When I took Criminal Law, about this time last year, I was amazed at how many people actually thought that there was. There may be local, municipal rules regarding it, such as in Racine (just north of me), it is practically impossible to leave the city with a firearm, cased or uncased, without voilating city ordinace. I'd have to look up on the exact wording of the ordinance though. Since Racine is modeled after Milwaukee in many ways, I'm sure Milwaukee has similar rules. I have yet to find anything of the sort locally.

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Originally posted by Special Investigator
    Open carry is legal in Wisconsin ONLY while engaged in legal hunting, at a range or if your on private property. You cannot walk down a public street or 'public way' without a 'Blue Card', aka "Firearms Permit" issued by the Department of Regulation & Licensing, even if it is 'open carry' and not conceled. A 'Blue Card' is only issued to security personal and private investigators who are certified by a state approved firearms instructor. You must have a minimum of 35 hours training and are required to be re-certified with an additional 6 hours of recertification every year afterwards.

    The "Blue Card" allows you to carry a loaded firearm in a vehicle while on duty and to and from work.
    Please cite the relevant section in Wisconsin Statute that criminalizes going armed in public. There are provisions, a felon may not go armed, etc. You may not go armed in government buildings. You may not go armed if you are "raising a private army, guard, or police force," (I.e. security company), nor may you go armed into a bar or park.

    Doyle's last retort to the CCW debate was, "Well, if you want to carry a gun, just do it openly." The only criminal charge that has been levied against a person who has went armed is "disturbing the peace," and the courts have yet to actually rule this is a valid charge.

    Now, there are giant "holes" in the fact that OC isn't completely regulated. Such as you pointed out, you can't open carry in a conveyance.

    However, I can tell you, there is no law against open carry in public in general, just a bunch of restrictions on where you can. People may like to draw a "line" on "you can only do this while hunting," but in reality, there is no law against it, only prohibitions where you can.

    Also, security personnel are another creature completely due to the "raising a private army/police force." Normal citizens, of course, are not raised by a private individual or corporation to be armed for the purposes of defense or protection.

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  • HotelSecurity
    replied
    Nathan,

    It was the vison of armed 10 year olds that scared me.

    Richard,

    It is presently a balmy 5C or 41F here in the Montreal borough of Verdun. And NO we have not had any snow yet this year. (They get more of it & they get it earlier south of Montreal).

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr. Security
    replied
    Originally posted by hrdickinson
    As a just management consultant in the industry, I am not familiar with the weapons laws. All I know is that it was a chilly 71 degrees here in Houston today. I had to wear a long sleeve shirt!
    It's 30 degrees out here and I'm still wearing short sleeve shirts. I like it cold.

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  • hrdickinson
    replied
    As a just management consultant in the industry, I am not familiar with the weapons laws. All I know is that it was a chilly 71 degrees here in Houston today. I had to wear a long sleeve shirt!

    Leave a comment:

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