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  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    Originally posted by 24hr View Post
    Thank y'all for your comments, this web site is a great find!!!

    Thank you,

    24hr
    24hr, your response has reaffirmed my stance, this forum does inform and we learn from each other.
    Thank you for your comment.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

    Leave a comment:


  • 24hr
    replied
    Construction Industry Insurance Savings

    Thank y'all for your comments, this web site is a great find!!!

    Thank you,

    24hr

    Leave a comment:


  • NRM_Oz
    replied
    Thanks Sec Trainer - enjoy reading your posts as this little Aussie is always ready to broaden his knowledge in our industry.

    Leave a comment:


  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Originally posted by integrator97 View Post
    People are always telling me about that tree. Don't understand why. Do I look like an arborist or something?
    I hope not. Arboring fugitives is a crime.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    Originally posted by integrator97 View Post
    People are always telling me about that tree. Don't understand why. Do I look like an arborist or something?
    Integrator you hit on an important part of this insurance business, WHAT IS NOT COVERED BY THE POLICY - WRITTEN IN CLASSIC GREEK! And that can be the rub as the commercial amusingly points out. SecTrainer brought up some really good points that hopefully all of us can internalize for the good of the profession.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

    Leave a comment:


  • integrator97
    replied
    Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
    No, unfortunately it was a fucyew, which is a totally different tree altogether.
    People are always telling me about that tree. Don't understand why. Do I look like an arborist or something?

    Leave a comment:


  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Originally posted by integrator97 View Post
    Was the tree a ficus?
    No, unfortunately it was a yew tree - specifically, a fucyew - which, as any arborist would know, is related to the fucme, fucem, and fucit family of trees - all hardwoods, of course. These trees are often confused with the yomamma tree, which looks very similar.
    Last edited by SecTrainer; 11-02-2007, 10:44 AM.

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  • integrator97
    replied
    Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
    Presuming that you yourself carry commercial line insurance, I would suggest that your own agent might well be able to answer your question or refer you to someone who can.

    Taking a guess, I would imagine the savings would probably only be in the 10-20% range at most, since the total insured risks of such companies involve an enormous range of liabilities (falls, confined space, fire, electrocution, scaffolds, structural collapse, hazardous materials, etc., etc.) other than just those that would be mitigated by the presence of security.

    On your other question, I see nothing wrong with reviewing the client's insurance coverage, particularly in the setting of conducting a Risk Analysis (rather than merely a Security Survey). Your approach would be that insurance (i.e., risk transferrence) is one means of risk mitigation and you need to understand how the security operations fit into the total risk management picture.

    The question is, though, whether you are qualified to know what you're looking at if you do get access to their policy? These things can be pages and pages and pages long, with all kinds of riders and codicils. They are written in mind-boggling legalese, set in microscopic type, and use a lot of special insurance-related terminology that you can't possibly understand without training in the field.

    And, buried in this garbage heap there could be a three-word phrase that basically means: "...and we, the insurer, will never pay nothing to no one, no how, no way, unless the loss occurs as the direct result of attack upon the insured conducted by Tutu villagers on the eve of St. Swithens' Day, after 6 PM GMT, and in such case our liability shall be limited to the cost of repairing any puncture holes in the tires of company vehicles, if proven to be caused by said attack (which we double-dog-dare the insured to try to prove)."

    Was the tree a ficus?

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  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Originally posted by 24hr View Post
    The present project I am securing is a Controlled Access Site which is the construction of a Waste Water Reclamation Facility.
    Incidentally, one other point: I notice that this project involves a facility that is involved with "environmental issues". Be sure that you understand the milieu surrounding this project in terms of environmental activism. There are a number of extremist "environmental" groups such as ELF who consider terrorist acts like bombings and arson to be legitimate actions in support of their causes, and they frequently attack construction projects involving facilities they don't like. Whether this project is generally regarded as being "good" or "bad" for the environment doesn't really matter - there are extremists on both sides of most of these issues.

    In other words, you might want to do a little intelligence work regarding the history of the project itself (who made what comments in city council meetings during public discussions, have any threatening letters been received by the city planning office, angry letters to the editor of the local newspaper, the construction company or developer, etc., etc.), the history of attacks on similar projects (anywhere in the country) previously, and stop by the local police and/or sheriff's department to chat with them as well. The latter would be a good idea in order to inform them of your activities at the site anyway.

    If you should happen to find that the atmosphere around this project is charged with a degree of "angry activism", or if there is a history of attacks on such facilities, you might even want to stop by the local field offices of the FBI and/or ATF to see if they have any information and/or suggestions to offer. Domestic terrorism is just as dangerous as foreign terrorism, and if there is a quantifiable threat from such groups it would change your whole approach to the operation.
    Last edited by SecTrainer; 11-01-2007, 06:45 PM.

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  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Originally posted by 24hr View Post
    Hi everyone,

    I hope I'm in the right area with this question?

    Does anyone know how much a developer, management company or company in the construction industry (heavy equipment, etc.) save on their insurance by having a 24hr security on site?

    Thank you,

    24hr
    Presuming that you yourself carry commercial line insurance, I would suggest that your own agent might well be able to answer your question or refer you to someone who can.

    Taking a guess, I would imagine the savings would probably only be in the 10-20% range at most, since the total insured risks of such companies involve an enormous range of liabilities (falls, confined space, fire, electrocution, scaffolds, structural collapse, hazardous materials, etc., etc.) other than just those that would be mitigated by the presence of security.

    On your other question, I see nothing wrong with reviewing the client's insurance coverage, particularly in the setting of conducting a Risk Analysis (rather than merely a Security Survey). Your approach would be that insurance (i.e., risk transferrence) is one means of risk mitigation and you need to understand how the security operations fit into the total risk management picture.

    The question is, though, whether you are qualified to know what you're looking at if you do get access to their policy? These things can be pages and pages and pages long, with all kinds of riders and codicils. They are written in mind-boggling legalese, set in microscopic type, and use a lot of special insurance-related terminology that you can't possibly understand without training in the field.

    And, buried in this garbage heap there could be a three-word phrase that basically means: "...and we, the insurer, will never pay nothing to no one, no how, no way, unless the loss occurs as the direct result of attack upon the insured conducted by Tutu villagers on the eve of St. Swithens' Day, after 6 PM GMT, and in such case our liability shall be limited to the cost of repairing any puncture holes in the tires of company vehicles, if proven to be caused by said attack (which we double-dog-dare the insured to try to prove)."
    Last edited by SecTrainer; 11-01-2007, 06:27 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • NRM_Oz
    replied
    Agreed - the legal eagle was the biggest cost - hence the use of me doing the ground work to save costs and to complete the RA. In another matter, a kid of 17 tried to break into a pub (bar) and clambered onto the roof where he broke through the ceiling causing much damage and injuring himself. When the owner came to investigate, the kid had a piece of timber in his hands so the owner whacked him with another bit and called the cops. The kid and his mummy sued the owner for assault and damages - result of about $255k US which was later turned around on appeal - but it makes you laugh.

    Leave a comment:


  • integrator97
    replied
    Originally posted by NRM_Oz View Post
    I investigated one site for a client, where an adult male had taken a short cut through the building site (despite lit warning signs) and fell down a trench breaking both his legs. A path of solar garden lights had lit up the path to main site office and he had stepped off this to cut through to another fence. Legal action was taken against my client who had a chain link fence and signs posted but the plaintiff admitted he climbed over a gate despite warning signs and an 8 foot fence. Thankfully it was agreed that solar panels would be placed on all site offices to provide battery supplies for non-essential lighting after hours (no site power yet) and the court found that this was considered reasonable to prevent any access and that a lit path had been provided for after hours use. It cost my client about $15k all to fight this matter which could have gone into millions in fines and compensation.
    Yea, but he shouldn't have even had to pay that. Damn courts system.

    Leave a comment:


  • NRM_Oz
    replied
    I investigated one site for a client, where an adult male had taken a short cut through the building site (despite lit warning signs) and fell down a trench breaking both his legs. A path of solar garden lights had lit up the path to main site office and he had stepped off this to cut through to another fence. Legal action was taken against my client who had a chain link fence and signs posted but the plaintiff admitted he climbed over a gate despite warning signs and an 8 foot fence. Thankfully it was agreed that solar panels would be placed on all site offices to provide battery supplies for non-essential lighting after hours (no site power yet) and the court found that this was considered reasonable to prevent any access and that a lit path had been provided for after hours use. It cost my client about $15k all to fight this matter which could have gone into millions in fines and compensation.

    Leave a comment:


  • integrator97
    replied
    THe insurance papers may not tell you what you need to know anyway, and I'm not sure anyone would give them to you. They may ask to see yours then.

    But it wouldn't hurt to ask, and better in writing, like a form they fill out and sign, that asks if there are any significant high risks, or danger factors, or anything the average person maight not understand about there risks.

    About 12 years ago, when I still worked for someone else, we electronically monitored through a security system, a cold storage facility. One sunday, we received an ammonia alarm. Our monitoring station called the premises and the contact list. There were, I recall, 5 or 6 people on the list with 8 or 9 numbers, homes and some cell phones. Reached no one, and left messages. Several hours later someone got the message, it was a big deal, an ammonia leak, and they were fined by the EPA. Our limit of liability clause protected us, and it really wasn't our fault. But we then put in the instructions the importance of the alarm, keep trying , and notify us (the alarm company) if no contacts are available. Then we can decide what to do (call the FD?). Anyway, now I ask if there could be anything unusual.

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  • NRM_Oz
    replied
    I am not a lawyer but the REASONABLE MAN PRINCIPLE is something rely on which says "what would a reasonable man do or expect ?". So if you have a 10000 sq fence line and only a few signs up - you are not covering yourself adequately - should be every 100 feet. Hint (if you are strapped for cash - get them done through a print shop and laminated so they can be attached to the fence line.

    If they have asked you to provide security - then they have assessed the need for you to provide physical security. You can quote based on a risk assessment - look we have sheds full of tools, or supplies or big machinery so we need an alarm on each door plus we need signs plus we need bodies 24/7.

    If they already have insurance they will also have had an assessment done. If they get insurance after you RA the site based on your requirements then it is something to discuss further. If you do have a closed site it is either barrier taped to warn people off with signage or it is lit up like Xmas to avoid anyone coming onsite and falling down holes.

    Leave a comment:

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