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  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Originally posted by Bill Warnock View Post
    The $54 million dollar suit brought by an administrative law judge: in re "The Missing Pants is living proof of that. The Korean owners of the dry cleaning establishments were forced to sell two of their stores.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill
    Bill, you've just given me an idea with the "Missing Pants". I wonder how much I could get out of Maytag...I have one of their dryers and my socks keep disappearing from the darned thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Originally posted by Bill Warnock View Post
    The $54 million dollar suit brought by an administrative law judge: in re "The Missing Pants is living proof of that. The Korean owners of the dry cleaning establishments were forced to sell two of their stores.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill
    Bill, you've just given me an idea with the "Missing Pants". I wonder how much I could get out of Maytag...I have one of their dryers and I never get back as many socks as I put in the darned thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
    Yup, they can keep the case tied up for years. Of course, there's nothing new about this. A couple of centuries ago, Dickens wrote a satirical novel about the legal system in England - Bleak House...read it here online - about the case of a contested will (the case of "Jarndyce and Jarndyce") that was manipulated by the lawyers for decades and decades (the original litigants died before it was settled and their children carried on), merely to line their own pockets. A small legal industry grew up around the case over the years so that entire firms were devoted to nothing but "Jarndyce and Jarndyce". Very humorous story and characters, with a lot of subplots, but a pathetic comment at the same time.

    There's nothing new under the sun, it seems.
    SecTrainer when I was in the Air Force NCO leadership program that was one of the required readings. We had a senior NCO, a naturalized US citizen hailing from the UK. He had the original version while we have the sanitized version, sold in America of course, one of the characters stated in the UK version "... justice is determined by the coin of the relm, true justice disappears faster than a fart." The American version "... justice may be fleeting." UK's leaves in the sting, ours, the sting is left out.
    The $54 million dollar suit brought by an administrative law judge: in re "The Missing Pants is living proof of that. The Korean owners of the dry cleaning establishments were forced to sell two of their stores.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill
    Last edited by Bill Warnock; 09-20-2007, 06:49 PM. Reason: Missing words

    Leave a comment:


  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Originally posted by Bill Warnock View Post
    Curtis, they are hoping that when they flip the coin it lands on its edge. I find that rationale strange, very strange indeed. Its as though they were saying to the world "... so sue us, we have sufficient roadblocks so as to not make it worth their while." In many cases, they are correct and therein lies the tragedy.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

    Yup, they can keep the case tied up for years. Of course, there's nothing new about this. A couple of centuries ago, Dickens wrote a satirical novel about the legal system in England - Bleak House...read it here online - about the case of a contested will (the case of "Jarndyce and Jarndyce") that was manipulated by the lawyers for decades and decades (the original litigants died before it was settled and their children carried on), merely to line their own pockets. A small legal industry grew up around the case over the years so that entire firms were devoted to nothing but "Jarndyce and Jarndyce". Very humorous story and characters, with a lot of subplots, but a pathetic comment at the same time.

    There's nothing new under the sun, it seems.
    Last edited by SecTrainer; 09-20-2007, 01:38 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    Originally posted by Security Consultant View Post
    Another case where the 'almighty dollar' is overruled by common sense and legal duty of care. Let's hope they don't learn the hard way.
    Curtis, they are hoping that when they flip the coin it lands on its edge. I find that rationale strange, very strange indeed. Its as though they were saying to the world "... so sue us, we have sufficient roadblocks so as to not make it worth their while." In many cases, they are correct and therein lies the tragedy.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

    Leave a comment:


  • Curtis Baillie
    replied
    Originally posted by FireEMSPolice View Post
    Great post! Our mall is staffed 24/7/365, but as you said at night time there is only 1 officer on duty. Housekeeping is there also but they are not 365 like us. So that leaves 1 officer with about 5 or 6 housekeepers, only 1 of which speaks English. That 1 person is the housekeeping supervisor and he is the only one with a radio.

    As far as our burglar alarm, it makes no sense to anyone due to the alarm program displaying stuff that nobody understands. In otherwords, the panel will display one thing, ADT will tell us another when the actual problem point will be somewhere other then what they are both trying to say. I went around and found several points inoperable and am pressing management to fix them so we can decipher them since management wont (at this time) let me bring ADT in to fix them.
    I just recently got a company in to reprogram the fire alarm panel. Management wasnt too pleased with the $2K+ bill since I had over 600 points relabeled to make sense.
    Another case where the 'almighty dollar' is overruled by common sense and legal duty of care. Let's hope they don't learn the hard way.

    Leave a comment:


  • FireEMSPolice
    replied
    Originally posted by Chimpie View Post
    Is management wanting security to be profitable, or just to recoup costs?

    Let me first mention that I have only recently started looking into 'mall security'. My knowledge in this area is very limited, so please correct me if I mis-speak about anything.

    One of the things that always surprised me was seeing the alarm stickers on the windows of stores inside the mall. Some were local mom and pop alarm companies, some were national monitoring companies (ADT, Sonitrol, Brinks, etc.). My thought: Why in the world would a store pay an outside company to monitor their store when there is a 24/7/365 security service already on site?

    Let's look at response times:
    • Burglar breaks in - has 30 - 90 seconds to shut off alarm before it 'rings'
    • After that time elapses, the box rings the alarm company
    • Another 15-60 seconds occurs as the alarm signal is routed to an alarm monitor
    • Another 30 seconds occurs as the alarm monitor reads the alarm and operational instructions for that client
    • Alarm monitor calls premise - 30 to 45 seconds
    • Alarm company calls (most often) police - 30 to 60 seconds
    • Police dispatchers notifies officer in the area, pending they are not on another, higher priority call
    • Knowing false alarm rate, officer arrives between 3 to 10 minutes (average)


    So already you're looking at 5 minutes before an officer (whether security or police) is notifited. (I worked for one of the national alarm monitoring companies, this pretty much how it works.)

    Now, lets take a look at it from keeping it all in-house:
    • Door sensor trips - signal instantly is sent to an officer in the security office (staffed 24/7/365)
    • Officer determines whether this is out of the norm or not
    • Motion detector is activated
    • Officer notifies other officers working - they go enroute
    • Security Officers arrive onscene within three minutes of alarm activation


    Okay, I'll admit. I was surprised to learn over the years that mall security offices are not staffed 24/7. I was surprised to learn that sometimes, during the overnight hours, that there is only one security officer on duty. Sad, so sad.

    Some of these alarm companies charge $50-100 a month to monitor small shops. Anchor stores - several hundered a month.

    Why can't malls provide these services? Charge low so stores will have to choose them. Charge extra for reports and such.

    I'm thinking out loud here. I have never done a full cost analysis. I'd like to though. (Okay, I'm sick. I enjoy doing stuff like that.)

    Is this an option for your mall?
    Great post! Our mall is staffed 24/7/365, but as you said at night time there is only 1 officer on duty. Housekeeping is there also but they are not 365 like us. So that leaves 1 officer with about 5 or 6 housekeepers, only 1 of which speaks English. That 1 person is the housekeeping supervisor and he is the only one with a radio.

    As far as our burglar alarm, it makes no sense to anyone due to the alarm program displaying stuff that nobody understands. In otherwords, the panel will display one thing, ADT will tell us another when the actual problem point will be somewhere other then what they are both trying to say. I went around and found several points inoperable and am pressing management to fix them so we can decipher them since management wont (at this time) let me bring ADT in to fix them.

    I just recently got a company in to reprogram the fire alarm panel. Management wasnt too pleased with the $2K+ bill since I had over 600 points relabeled to make sense.

    Leave a comment:


  • SecTrainer
    replied
    This page on proprietary alarm monitoring might interest some.

    Leave a comment:


  • Curtis Baillie
    replied
    I first looked into it as we were monitoring alarms when I was in LE. One of the requirements for (for UL certification) a central station was the bomb blast requirement. Many years later, while working for a national retailer, who had its own monitoring central station, the requirement was the same. Our central station was designed to withstand more than the minimum.

    Leave a comment:


  • integrator97
    replied
    I've never heard of the 500lb bomb blast requirement. I'll have to check that. But you are required to be a secure facility, 2 personnel in monitoring center at all times (one can go to the bathroom, you don't need a 3rd), redundant equipment (backups), UPS battery backup, and generators, for I believe 24 hours. You also may need phone lines from 2 providers and 2 different physical directions in, but not sure.

    Our response time isn't that long. 99%+ is 30 second delay door. The alarm control has usually completed the call in 10-15 seconds, and an operator acknowledges in under 5 seconds most often. The numbers and instructions are popped on the screen and a keystroke auto-dials. From there, it can take time.

    As far as cost, we charge as low as under $20, depending on contract length, and opening/closing reports, and cell backup. Our monitoring has nothing to do with the size of the system or customer. That would be maintenance/service contracts. Maybe they were paying for those, or was it guard response?

    I doubt the mall would want to, and I would strongly suggest against monitoring those systems themselves. The liability, if someone was hurt, attacked, etc, would go up exponentially by providing both physical and electronic security.

    I would also suggest that if you are not entering the store, you have a waiver from the tenant if your are cancelling those alarms. If someone is hiding inside, and gets away with anything after you cancelled, their could be trouble.

    BTW, the funny thing about UL, is people may ask about it, but very few are willing to pay for a UL certificated system.

    Leave a comment:


  • FireEMSPolice
    replied
    Originally posted by LPCap View Post
    I have seen mall security used as a point of contact by the local police.

    A store in the mall has an alarm and the police are called. Dispatch dials mall security directly, and they are the first responders. The police arrive and help secure the scene. Mall Security then notify the store (if the alarm company hasn't already) by using the emergency contact list that the stores provide.

    That way, mall security can be on scene quickly and provide an extra pair of eyes and ears in case the alarm is "real".
    Most times, the police will call us, we investigate and decide weather to cancel them or not. This should be for every store but its not. Something for me to work on with the city emergency communications coordinator.

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Originally posted by ValleyOne View Post
    The mall, in most cases, lease out their property to the tenants who can set up the space they lease almost as they wish. But it is still mall property. Whether or not it's the main concourse or the restroom of the GAP.

    They may be seperat legal entities, but as far as property it is all owned by the Mall, or whoever owns the Mall.

    Isn't it?

    Depends. Some states, the property becomes the tenants with a security lien imposed by the landlord. The adage: If the landlord barges in at 3 AM uninvited without warning, I can shoot him.

    Leave a comment:


  • ValleyOne
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
    The mall tenants are separate entities, and unless there is an agreement between the store and the mall management, the responding mall security are technically trespassers.
    The mall, in most cases, lease out their property to the tenants who can set up the space they lease almost as they wish. But it is still mall property. Whether or not it's the main concourse or the restroom of the GAP.

    They may be seperat legal entities, but as far as property it is all owned by the Mall, or whoever owns the Mall.

    Isn't it?

    Leave a comment:


  • LPCap
    replied
    I have seen mall security used as a point of contact by the local police.

    A store in the mall has an alarm and the police are called. Dispatch dials mall security directly, and they are the first responders. The police arrive and help secure the scene. Mall Security then notify the store (if the alarm company hasn't already) by using the emergency contact list that the stores provide.

    That way, mall security can be on scene quickly and provide an extra pair of eyes and ears in case the alarm is "real".

    Leave a comment:


  • Curtis Baillie
    replied
    Here's the UL site:

    http://www.ulalarmfinder.com/consumer/faq.html

    I do know that one of the requirements to be certified as a UL listed central station is - your facility must be able to survive a direct hit from a 500 pound bomb. That requirement alone would eliminate most malls - I think.

    Leave a comment:

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