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  • #16
    Curt- Nothing surprises me anymore - just that some things surprise me more than others!

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    • #17
      I should rephrase, IPC wasnt booted because it wasnt profitable. The company wanted to see if they could save by bringing it in-house i would imagine.

      Security Consultant, no problem. I understand.


      However, we still have to make money. For example, now, any contractor that needs on the roof after-hours (for things such as HVAC, hood cleaning for restaurants, etc) is required to hire us (and only us, since we have access to the roof) in advance. They are required to pay us at the time and a half rate. I believe part of it goes to the officer, the rest goes to the our budget.
      "I am not a hero. I am a silent guardian, a watchful protector"

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      • #18
        I can understand the 'bean counters' wanting in-house security to save on outgoing business expenses... but it sounds like your security department has been turned into a 'catch-all' maintenance/general services division

        I don't see how you're supposed to perform 'additional duty X' whilst providing adequate secure property services (and public safety)
        "We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give" - Winston Churchill

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Maelstrom View Post
          I can understand the 'bean counters' wanting in-house security to save on outgoing business expenses... but it sounds like your security department has been turned into a 'catch-all' maintenance/general services division

          I don't see how you're supposed to perform 'additional duty X' whilst providing adequate secure property services (and public safety)
          Maelstrom you have written well! These folks forget the mission. While security officer Smith is operating the trash compactor miscreant Jones is hauling off part of the company jewels.
          The true professional in any craft never takes his eye off the mission; it is the mission, the mission and only the mission.
          Enjoy the day,
          Bill

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          • #20
            In our case they stay In-House because they can pay us anything they want. Contract Security in Quebec is covered by a government "decree" or union contracts. The Salary & extras are regulated. (0.50 an hour more if you do first aid, another 0.50 if you answer fire alarms etc). In-House security does not have to follow these rules. Then there are the added duties. Cut the overnight Bellboy & make Security help bringing luggage up to or down from a room. (My guys don't mind this duty as it doesn't happen often & USUALLY guests tip), cut the overnight Houseman 2 nights a week & have security deliver cots, towels etc. (I have an agreement with my staff, 10 of these calls in one shift & I pay them an extra hour-so far it has only happened once.

            We also generate revenue. We charge school groups that want an Officer dedicated to their section of the hotel. We presently charge $20/hour. If one of my Officers is available it costs us between $11.75 & $13.75 + benefits. If I have to sub-contract to an agency it costs us just over $19.00 so we just break even in these cases.
            Last edited by HotelSecurity; 08-30-2007, 05:44 PM.
            I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
            Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by FireEMSPolice View Post
              management told us that our division was created to make money.
              Your division should've been created to save their money by means of preventing losses, even through the means of proactive approaches to preventing stupid people from harming themselves and turning around and sueing your employer.

              Security is only as good as it's allowed to be. When people start curbing what security can and can't do it's effectivenes is also curbed. Security may look like they are doing nothing but it's more akin to the saying about a duck; On the surface it's calm just sitting there, underneath it's feet are running a mile a minute.

              If your not actively trying to prevent losses to your client (or employer) your seemingly nothing more than a professional scape-goat.
              ~Super Ninja Sniper~
              Corbier's Commandos

              Nemo me impune lacessit

              Grammical and Spelling errors may occur form time to time. Yoov bin worned

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              • #22
                Having an in house security department versus contract guards is a very daunting challenge. Most companies aren't aware of the challenges of running 24 hour operation with limited number of personnel. When someone HAS to be there to relieve the watch. Being able to cover vacations, sick time and days off.

                That being said, what you hopefully gain is a better, more professional and dedicated staff. People that receive company benefits, and maybe a long term career. But saving money on payroll versus contract isn't likely.

                Security, be it electronic or physical, is like insurance. You pay for it, and really hope you never have to use it, that it does its job as a deterrant. It's an expense that can save you money in the form of reduced losses, be it from theft or lawsuits.
                sigpic
                Rocket Science
                Making everything else look simple, since 1958.


                http://my.opera.com/integrator/blog/
                One Man's Opinion

                The Future. It isn't what it used to be.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by integrator97 View Post
                  Having an in house security department versus contract guards is a very daunting challenge. Most companies aren't aware of the challenges of running 24 hour operation with limited number of personnel. When someone HAS to be there to relieve the watch. Being able to cover vacations, sick time and days off.

                  That being said, what you hopefully gain is a better, more professional and dedicated staff. People that receive company benefits, and maybe a long term career. But saving money on payroll versus contract isn't likely.

                  Security, be it electronic or physical, is like insurance. You pay for it, and really hope you never have to use it, that it does its job as a deterrant. It's an expense that can save you money in the form of reduced losses, be it from theft or lawsuits.
                  Many companies do not conduct manpower surveys and if they do there is no personnel formulation. Savvy security managers and personnel officers work together to form such a formulation which normally works out to five bodies for each post and patrol. That adds up.
                  Enjoy the day,
                  Bill

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Minneapolis Security View Post
                    That is illegal in a lot of states. If a license is required, you cannot contract out to other facilities.
                    I didn't think it necessary to say that the contracting entity would obviously comply with any legal requirements.

                    There are numerous arrangements just like this in existence. For instance, I know of a security department that conducts background investigations for its own HR department and several other defense contractors in the area who do not have the capability to do these.
                    Last edited by SecTrainer; 08-31-2007, 10:30 PM.
                    "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                    "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                    "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                    "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Minneapolis Security View Post
                      That is illegal in a lot of states. If a license is required, you cannot contract out to other facilities.
                      Even if a license is required, why couldn't one be obtained? I know of a couple of contract firms that began as in-house.
                      "Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists. " Author Unknown

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                      • #26
                        Is management wanting security to be profitable, or just to recoup costs?

                        Let me first mention that I have only recently started looking into 'mall security'. My knowledge in this area is very limited, so please correct me if I mis-speak about anything.

                        One of the things that always surprised me was seeing the alarm stickers on the windows of stores inside the mall. Some were local mom and pop alarm companies, some were national monitoring companies (ADT, Sonitrol, Brinks, etc.). My thought: Why in the world would a store pay an outside company to monitor their store when there is a 24/7/365 security service already on site?

                        Let's look at response times:
                        • Burglar breaks in - has 30 - 90 seconds to shut off alarm before it 'rings'
                        • After that time elapses, the box rings the alarm company
                        • Another 15-60 seconds occurs as the alarm signal is routed to an alarm monitor
                        • Another 30 seconds occurs as the alarm monitor reads the alarm and operational instructions for that client
                        • Alarm monitor calls premise - 30 to 45 seconds
                        • Alarm company calls (most often) police - 30 to 60 seconds
                        • Police dispatchers notifies officer in the area, pending they are not on another, higher priority call
                        • Knowing false alarm rate, officer arrives between 3 to 10 minutes (average)


                        So already you're looking at 5 minutes before an officer (whether security or police) is notifited. (I worked for one of the national alarm monitoring companies, this pretty much how it works.)

                        Now, lets take a look at it from keeping it all in-house:
                        • Door sensor trips - signal instantly is sent to an officer in the security office (staffed 24/7/365)
                        • Officer determines whether this is out of the norm or not
                        • Motion detector is activated
                        • Officer notifies other officers working - they go enroute
                        • Security Officers arrive onscene within three minutes of alarm activation


                        Okay, I'll admit. I was surprised to learn over the years that mall security offices are not staffed 24/7. I was surprised to learn that sometimes, during the overnight hours, that there is only one security officer on duty. Sad, so sad.

                        Some of these alarm companies charge $50-100 a month to monitor small shops. Anchor stores - several hundered a month.

                        Why can't malls provide these services? Charge low so stores will have to choose them. Charge extra for reports and such.

                        I'm thinking out loud here. I have never done a full cost analysis. I'd like to though. (Okay, I'm sick. I enjoy doing stuff like that.)

                        Is this an option for your mall?

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                        • #27
                          Chimpie - I can see where the mall monitoring alarms would not work - in some cases. Insurance companies, at least from my experiences, require certain businesses, such as jewelry stores, to be monitored by an UL approved service. I do not see many malls meeting the UL requirements.
                          Retail Security Consultant / Expert Witness
                          Co-Author - Effective Security Management 6th Edition

                          Contributor to Retail Crime, Security and Loss Prevention: An Encyclopedic Reference

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                          • #28
                            I think the problem is liability.

                            The mall tenants are separate entities, and unless there is an agreement between the store and the mall management, the responding mall security are technically trespassers.

                            I don't see a problem with the alarm company calling the police and the mall security as the point of contact. But, then again, the mall may not want the added liability of that.
                            Some Kind of Commando Leader

                            "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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                            • #29
                              I applaud Chimpie for thinking "outside the box" here.

                              Not sure how difficult UL approval would really be? Maybe someone could enlighten me. It seems to me that quite a few companies that are hardly what you would call "top-drawer" that manage to meet UL requirements. One that I know of amounts to a home monitoring console (usually manned by the wife) and one "response" car (yup, the hubby) for a town of about 40,000, estimating maybe 75-100 accounts tops. I would imagine response time is great since you can get from one end of town to the other on a skateboard in 5 minutes (if the 3 traffic lights are with you). At one time, swear to God, he was driving an orange Yugo, by which I really do mean ORANGE. He has since graduated to a black Subaru...his "stealth car".

                              Anyway, they brag about having "UL approval" in their yellow page ads. Are they smoking something, and if so, should I try to get some of whatever it is?

                              B
                              Last edited by SecTrainer; 09-01-2007, 03:06 PM.
                              "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                              "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                              "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                              "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Here's the UL site:

                                http://www.ulalarmfinder.com/consumer/faq.html

                                I do know that one of the requirements to be certified as a UL listed central station is - your facility must be able to survive a direct hit from a 500 pound bomb. That requirement alone would eliminate most malls - I think.
                                Retail Security Consultant / Expert Witness
                                Co-Author - Effective Security Management 6th Edition

                                Contributor to Retail Crime, Security and Loss Prevention: An Encyclopedic Reference

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