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Forcing The Training Issue

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  • Ron Jessee
    replied
    oh good lord I agree. Some of the NCOs I've had to deal with have been, how shall I put it- a bit 'off'. Gold chains, trousers pulled down mid thigh, and just about any kind of uniform blunder you can think of point to a single thing. With these people, it's just another $6.50 per hour paycheck, and they will do anything possible to make things easy on themselves.

    That's a big reason why DPS has been called in to enforce TBPS codes. And why the public and law enfocement community see us mainly as "Bad News Bears" type characters. Decent pay, and for heaven's sake actual training (not just certification tests) might actually seperate the fry cooks from the actual officers.

    And I can't even find a decent source of information on Texas Private security regs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Maelstrom
    replied
    Originally posted by ValleyOne View Post
    These types will always weasel their way into stealing accounts from competitor's who; "Charge way to much, I can do the SAME THING for a whole lot less. I'll could save you so much money, it's really just a waste to pay for the company you have, or are considering. Because I charge a fair and honest price."
    IMHO You pay peanuts... you get monkeys!

    We obviously need to educate our clients as to what exactly quality/reliable service really is, the benefits of a contracting company who treats it's employee's well (in regards to pay, equipment, conditions & training) & the inherent risks going with fly-by-nighters

    As to the training comment someone made, our company uses the 'buddy system' pairing up employees to teach them the ropes, with the frequency of the 'buddy shifts' determined by the degree of difficulty each site presents

    Leave a comment:


  • ValleyOne
    replied
    OSHA will never rid the market of under bidding. In an industry where a LOT of owners/managers would step over their own mother (if they had one) to slit the throat of a competitor, how can you stop this?

    These types will always weasel their way into stealing accounts from competitor's who; "Charge way to much, I can do the SAME THING for a whole lot less. I'll could save you so much money, it's really just a waste to pay for the company you have, or are considering. Because I charge a fair and honest price."

    I know of a company that is still charging people the same as he did when he started out nearly 15 years ago, and even back then he was low balling everyone. So now the market is conditioned to paying nearly $90 per month for three hits a night!!!

    I like the idea of bringing OSHA into the fray though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bern Wheaton
    replied
    The sad truth is there will never been a good training for security ever or any company will follow through with .the monitory training of eight hours and off you go to your post which the training here depends on the contract some could be up to four hours and some are two weeks. But then it depends on who trains you? And if they are any good at training!

    I had a Friend once who tried to make all the Security company's into a union and that is how it would have to work they all would have to agree ,be for it would become a union, he was fired in a week and they found a good reason to fire him!

    If it is a high tech company they will pay for you to get that training to work on there site .But security company's at least the ones I see ,just want body's to cover there post and then you got the high turn overs of security guards.

    Someone new every day,never the same face,clients and employees alike frown on this!

    It would be nice to have all security company's have to get a monitory rule to train all security equal on everything instead of some silly security bible telling them the do's and dont's. and when you can have vacation! how many sick day you can't have!

    These security manuals do not explain anything in the real world of security.
    And what your stepping into! training is the most important part of any security officer life and if you wish to stick with it as a life time career.

    If you are not Trained right you are look down on ,and the sad truth is this where we get the rap as security guards ,wanna be and rent a pigs, With out proper training and recognition for what we do and who we are it will never change

    Leave a comment:


  • junkyarddog
    replied
    THE CASE AGAINST HIGHER STANDARDS: Having said that, we now must turn around and acknowledge that both security companies and their clients have used the "economic case" for many years as a sufficient argument to keep training mandates low. In reply, those of us who argue for higher standards have generally attacked the "economic case" directly - for instance, by arguing that better selection and training results in better service and lower liability, so that insufficient training investment represents a form of "false economics".

    Our case is demonstrably true, yet it remains the fact that this argument has rarely been very successful, even if true. Direct costs are much easier for companies to see and think about than future benefits...or even future liabilities, much less the potential differences in benefits and liabilities that will result from the lower standards versus higher standards.

    Only a comprehensive study done by professional analysts (aka MBA's) could really determine whether or not higher training standards would be more profitable to the customer than lower training standards. And this by sector to sector, likely a case by case analysis.

    We don't fight fires. For as hard as higher training standards for the purpose of occupational safety is pushed, security companies will lobby back even harder. They will produce "documented proof from experts" who analyze statistics, demonstrating that current levels of training are entirely sufficient in meeting standard occupational safety.

    as far as "detect, observe, report" security goes....

    Lets assume it works and now "security companies" must train their S/O's a minimum of 120 hours. The cost gets passed onto the customer. Once the new standards are formed, someone will simply start a service that does the same exact thing- or at least to the same exact affect- that security companies do. But they will not call themselves "security". Not being "security" and not having to pay for the extensive training, they will low-ball their "security" competitors and dominate the industry.

    Let's dispense with the question of "observe and report" officers first: Even officers who might initially be assigned to "observe-and-report" positions should be trained to a standard that allows the security company or security department manager to post them to more "response-oriented" positions as manpower needs change and as the security environment changes. This is just good personnel planning - not to have certain people "locked into" certain assignments.
    If 90% of your business is contracting out "observe and report" S/O's, why on earth would you dispense with observe and report S/O's? You might as well just drop 90% of your customers.

    My view is that the best way to have more training mandated, is to couple higher screening, training and salary mandates with financial off-sets for security companies. Likely in the form of government grants. On the flip side, the bonus for the government would be the right to use security officers as needed in emergencies to fill marginal roles, freeing more highly skilled and trained government personnel for more critical duties and buttressing manpower overall. This idea at least gives security companies incentive to see the legislation gets pushed through.

    Leave a comment:


  • john_harrington
    replied
    Originally posted by Bill Warnock View Post
    John to follow-up on my last missive, when you are told you have a medical condition and your turn WebMD or a like site for additional information are you perhaps bypassing the doctor to then treat yourself? Of course not. You are merely seeking to educate yourself so as to be a better informed patient. That is the analogy that I and some others use when we sent our guides to a prospective client so they can get started on either correcting existing deficiencies or to boost their confidence or reassurance they are on the right track. From those checklists, if properly formated, they will learn of other sources they might not have thought of.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill
    Bill,

    We also send our VA clients an extensive worksheet 2 weeks or more before starting an assessment. Like you, we have found it to be a great tool as well as a way to be competitive.

    Regards

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    John to follow-up on my last missive, when you are told you have a medical condition and your turn WebMD or a like site for additional information are you perhaps bypassing the doctor to then treat yourself? Of course not. You are merely seeking to educate yourself so as to be a better informed patient. That is the analogy that I and some others use when we sent our guides to a prospective client so they can get started on either correcting existing deficiencies or to boost their confidence or reassurance they are on the right track. From those checklists, if properly formated, they will learn of other sources they might not have thought of.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    Originally posted by john_harrington View Post
    Bill W and SecTrainer,

    I have been responding as I read this thread so bear with my multiple posts.

    You have nailed the goal of any security consulting organization in my opinion-nice!

    John
    John, we thank you. You are as part of your scope of work teaching security officers. If they should see a light out and is to be on at all times and it is constantly replaced, that should ring a bell.
    In the old army, the discrepancy was, "Floor dirty." Corrective Action: Cleaned Floor. Several repeat inspections, same thing over and over again.
    What is now emphasized is: "What we will do to preclude this discrepancy from occurring again."
    Now back to the light out. John, if it keeps going out, the question must be asked why? Things just don't happen, there is a cause. Could be bad socket, bad switch, bad wiring, neutral not secured tightly to the binding post. If the whole circuit has problems even more problems.
    Door found taped open repeatedly. Do something! That is management's job to correct what the field tells them.
    Look for the indicators. Something to keep that in mind is a joke my Air Police supervisor told us some 45 years ago. "If she moans and her nails lightly scratch your back, those are indicators, you're doing something right. Folks there are always be indicators to indicate something is either right or wrong." The French in the analogy was modified in both instances.
    In this business we must learn, "if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it."
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

    Leave a comment:


  • john_harrington
    replied
    Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
    Something else here, too. The "educated" client makes a much better partner in client/vendor relationships, which will usually sooner or later come into play as the consultant recommends solutions in the way of security systems or services that will usually be purchased from third-party vendors, not the consultant.

    Even if the consultant continues to provide some interface between his client and the third-party vendor, it will be the client/vendor relationship that becomes predominant on a day-to-day basis, and the consultant usually fades into the background. As such, you want to leave your client with the savvy to manage that contract from their side successfully on their own, and that means educating them.
    Bill W and SecTrainer,

    I have been responding as I read this thread so bear with my multiple posts.

    You have nailed the goal of any security consulting organization in my opinion-nice!

    John

    Leave a comment:


  • john_harrington
    replied
    Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
    I would estimate that a comprehensive physical security survey of a typical small manufacturing plant (say, up to 500 employees) might well take a week or more from start to finished report, and especially so if the survey addresses supply chain security issues.

    Heck, you could easily spend two days just in your initial interviews, reviewing the facility's history, studying the plant drawings, getting relevant crime statistics and response capability information from the police, and observing the different shift traffic/work patterns before you ever looked at a single lock on a single door or set foot on the roof to take a gander at the vents.
    SecTrainer,

    This is a great topic!

    I agree with your time estimate for the assessment pricing- if it is straightforward. It really depends on the depth of the report and amount of presentations. I have worked on assessments with fees of $5K and others at $250K

    Regarding training for SOs- It is a subject that I am constantly discussing with clients. Most problems are usually due to a lack of training, not because of negligence by the security officer.

    Perhaps collectively the writers of RFPs for contract security officers need to specify the level of training that each SO is to receive. Unfortunately, many RFPs are written by purchasing departments with little detail or knowledge of scope.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dragonfyre024
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr. Security View Post
    I welcome any additional training that may be required, as long as wages are commensurate with the qualifications mandated. In other words, I'm not interested in additional schooling for a 10/hr position. Hopefully the hourly rate will be at a livable wage.
    This is exactly the issue as I see it when it comes to officers and training standards. There is without a doubt that the responsibilities of security officers has grown greatly just within the last couple of years alone. However, the rate in which security officers are paid has not to equal the amount of responsibilities. In addition, if pay rates were to increase I am about willing to put money on the fact that better quality individuals would be hired rather than what I like to call the, "hot body," syndrome.

    I as a trainer definitely want to raise the training standards and I am charged in my current duties as doing as such for now. But the chief complaint I've heard from my officers is that if they are going to be raised to the next level, at least give them the pay rate that would be respectful for receiving that training.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    I am reminded of the old saying, "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will be able to feed himself from then on." Give the client the tools to better perform his mission and he will be able to stand on his own two feet. He will call upon you to help him tweak and peak his program. The word gets out to his fellow security managers and you wind up with more work than you really want or need.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    Originally posted by SecTrainer
    Something else here, too. The "educated" client makes a much better partner in client/vendor relationships, which will usually sooner or later come into play as the consultant recommends solutions in the way of security systems or services that will usually be purchased from third-party vendors, not the consultant.

    Even if the consultant continues to provide some interface between his client and the third-party vendor, it will be the client/vendor relationship that becomes predominant on a day-to-day basis, and the consultant usually fades into the background. As such, you want to leave your client with the savvy to manage that contract from their side successfully on their own, and that means educating them.
    Excellent perspective! Let me add to that:
    If newer or additional security equipment is needed, the client should be encouraged to prepare a “Functional Purchase Description” for each required security system or item.
    You as the consultant should provide the basic structure as a template for further development. The wording of the functional purchase description should state compliance testing is the responsibility of those bidders determined responsive utilizing a NIST accredited testing laboratory in that specialty. A functional purchase description should be the collaborative work of security, procurement, personnel, safety, legal and insurance underwriter with the consultant in an advisory role. A signed coordination sheet should be filed with the master copy of the document. The wording of the functional purchase description should state the client reserves the right to conduct tests using a NIST accredited testing laboratory utilizing the exact compliance testing protocol as the bidders.
    It is strongly recommended the security consultant not design, install, service, or maintain security equipment with an end user. Consulting services in this venue should be limited to the engineering or contracting firm. To do otherwise, would remove his or her mantle of independence and impartiality.
    It must be emphasized that you as a security consultant have allegiance to no one except the client with the intent to serve all who request your assistance.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

    Leave a comment:


  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Originally posted by Bill Warnock
    One final note. We should encourage our clients to conduct a periodic self-inspection to ensure quality of operations. You might think, well what about us, we'll not get much work that way. Yes we will, someone not caught up in their day-to-day operations can come in and look at things afresh. That is why I encourage the client to develop a comprehensive guide for themselves and keep it up to date.
    Preparedness - preparedness - preparedness!
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill
    Something else here, too. The "educated" client makes a much better partner in client/vendor relationships, which will usually sooner or later come into play as the consultant recommends solutions in the way of security systems or services that will usually be purchased from third-party vendors, not the consultant.

    Even if the consultant continues to provide some interface between his client and the third-party vendor, it will be the client/vendor relationship that becomes predominant on a day-to-day basis, and the consultant usually fades into the background. As such, you want to leave your client with the savvy to manage that contract from their side successfully on their own, and that means educating them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    One final note. We should encourage our clients to conduct a periodic self-inspection to ensure quality of operations. You might think, well what about us, we'll not get much work that way. Yes we will, someone not caught up in their day-to-day operations can come in and look at things afresh. That is why I encourage the client to develop a comprehensive guide for themselves and keep it up to date.
    Preparedness - preparedness - preparedness!
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

    Leave a comment:

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