Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Forcing The Training Issue

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Bill Warnock
    Young man, you read my mind. It takes that long or longer especially if you have to bring power or TSCM folks to the site.
    As I've mentioned before, I send a prospective client my 100+ page guide well in advance of a site visit and still it takes time, if, operative word, if, you want to do it correctly. Sifting through detailed photographs on site takes up a better part of two days. I am adverse to having film sent home for development. I'd prefer the client do that and then we can all look at the same photograph at the same time. In and out briefings take time as does the final report writing, hence the gray hair.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill
    Something I got out of your post. Do you really send "prospective clients" your 100 page guide before they have hire you? If so...what keeps them from using your materials to conduct their own in-house survey? You're right about the amount of time required. I do not do assessments for manufacturing - my practice is limited to the retail sector and surveys for "mom and Pop" operators can last for days. I recently completed a survey for a 70 store chain that took over 300 hours, or about 35 days. There is no quick fix!
    Retail Security Consultant / Expert Witness
    Co-Author - Effective Security Management 6th Edition

    Contributor to Retail Crime, Security and Loss Prevention: An Encyclopedic Reference

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Security Consultant
      Something I got out of your post. Do you really send "prospective clients" your 100 page guide before they have hire you? If so...what keeps them from using your materials to conduct their own in-house survey? You're right about the amount of time required. I do not do assessments for manufacturing - my practice is limited to the retail sector and surveys for "mom and Pop" operators can last for days. I recently completed a survey for a 70 store chain that took over 300 hours, or about 35 days. There is no quick fix!
      Curtis that is exactly what I do. I want them to conduct their own in-house survey. I have shared it with many forum members who have asked for it. Most of that survey was developed when I was in the Air Force, as a civilian employee for all the services and US Marshals Service. Therefore, it was developed on government time using government assets. When retiring, the interesting goodies were left behind. I know where the line is and have never crossed it, nudged it a bit, never crossing it. Plus I have added to it from publications subscribed to and from many of the forum members with credit given in all instances. Therefore, freely given - freely shared.
      No client wants a consultant to raise, so they do all the leg work, see a problem, correct it and continue. I set the ground rules with the client's legal, personnel and security folks involved from the get-go. I point out things they have missed and put it in a written report. That is the only fair way to do it. The client pays for my knowledge and experience.
      Enjoy the day,
      Bill

      Comment


      • #18
        Thanks for your response.
        Retail Security Consultant / Expert Witness
        Co-Author - Effective Security Management 6th Edition

        Contributor to Retail Crime, Security and Loss Prevention: An Encyclopedic Reference

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Bill Warnock
          Curtis that is exactly what I do. I want them to conduct their own in-house survey. I have shared it with many forum members who have asked for it. Most of that survey was developed when I was in the Air Force, as a civilian employee for all the services and US Marshals Service. Therefore, it was developed on government time using government assets. When retiring, the interesting goodies were left behind. I know where the line is and have never crossed it, nudged it a bit, never crossing it. Plus I have added to it from publications subscribed to and from many of the forum members with credit given in all instances. Therefore, freely given - freely shared.
          No client wants a consultant to raise, so they do all the leg work, see a problem, correct it and continue. I set the ground rules with the client's legal, personnel and security folks involved from the get-go. I point out things they have missed and put it in a written report. That is the only fair way to do it. The client pays for my knowledge and experience.
          Enjoy the day,
          Bill
          I think I'd have to agree that many clients don't want to pay $80 an hour plus expenses to have the security consultant tell them to re-mount their exterior doors with the hinges on the inside, or to position their cash register where it's visible from the street, and this isn't the best use of the consultant's time, IMHO.

          Many aspects of physical security are obvious once the client knows what to look for, but where the consultant comes into the picture is in four areas, I believe:

          1. Conducting the risk analysis that involves the vulnerabilities and the business drivers in order to be able to say how the identified deficiencies should be prioritized, explaining and evaluating the myriad possible correctives for each deficiency and then recommending a solution that is optimal from a security and a business standpoint.

          2. Evaluating business process, policy and procedural deficiencies, which are much harder for a "non-expert" to identify than the more obvious physical deficiencies. It's very easy for the non-expert to see that his exterior doors were mounted with the hinges to the outside. It's not so easy for him to see that his employee parking policy, package/purse/bag policy (or lack thereof), etc. are enabling employees to steal from him more easily than they otherwise could.

          3. Integrating system-based solutions so that they make sense in terms of their combined function and cost.

          4. Project management, when major solution projects are needed.
          Last edited by SecTrainer; 05-11-2007, 04:13 PM.
          "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

          "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

          "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

          "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by SecTrainer
            I think I'd have to agree that many clients don't want to pay $80 an hour plus expenses to have the security consultant tell them to re-mount their exterior doors with the hinges on the inside, or to position their cash register where it's visible from the street, and this isn't the best use of the consultant's time, IMHO.

            Many aspects of physical security are obvious once the client knows what to look for, but where the consultant comes into the picture is in four areas, I believe:

            1. Conducting the risk analysis that involves the vulnerabilities and the business drivers in order to be able to say how the identified deficiencies should be prioritized, explaining and evaluating the myriad possible correctives for each deficiency and then recommending a solution that is optimal from a security and a business standpoint.

            2. Evaluating business process, policy and procedural deficiencies, which are much harder for a "non-expert" to identify than the more obvious physical deficiencies. It's very easy for the non-expert to see that his exterior doors were mounted with the hinges to the outside. It's not so easy for him to see that his employee parking policy, package/purse/bag policy (or lack thereof), etc. are enabling employees to steal from him more easily than they otherwise could.

            3. Integrating system-based solutions so that they make sense in terms of their combined function and cost.

            4. Project management, when major solution projects are needed.
            Then why do I still have many clients tell me - "I never thought of that"?
            Retail Security Consultant / Expert Witness
            Co-Author - Effective Security Management 6th Edition

            Contributor to Retail Crime, Security and Loss Prevention: An Encyclopedic Reference

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Security Consultant
              Then why do I still have many clients tell me - "I never thought of that"?
              This statement was made in the context of the conversation about sending the client a "pre-consultation checklist". I should have said that once they're told what to look for as far as obviously-visible things are concerned, they don't need to spend their money on having the consultant do that...they can do it themselves. Many crime-prevention sites provide such checklists anyway, presumably on this same assumption.

              So, with reference to Bill sending something out to the client as a "pre-consultation activity" that essentially compiles this information, doing so permits the client to focus the consultant's time on things that call for expertise, not simple things that anyone can discover by merely looking - again, once they know what to look for. That's why your clients say "I never thought of that", and Bill's probably don't say that to him, at least nearly as often. He's already told them what to think about.

              I should probably also have said (and I think Bill implied) that this doesn't mean the consultant doesn't do a followup physical survey himself. I will leave it to Bill to correct my understanding of his process if I'm wrong.
              Last edited by SecTrainer; 05-12-2007, 12:58 PM.
              "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

              "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

              "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

              "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by SecTrainer
                This statement was made in the context of the conversation about sending the client a "pre-consultation checklist". I should have said that once they're told what to look for as far as obviously-visible things are concerned, they don't need to spend their money on having the consultant do that...they can do it themselves. Many crime-prevention sites provide such checklists anyway, presumably on this same assumption.

                So, with reference to Bill sending something out to the client as a "pre-consultation activity" that essentially compiles this information, doing so permits the client to focus the consultant's time on things that call for expertise, not simple things that anyone can discover by merely looking - again, once they know what to look for. That's why your clients say "I never thought of that", and Bill's probably don't say that to him, at least nearly as often. He's already told them what to think about.

                I should probably also have said (and I think Bill implied) that this doesn't mean the consultant doesn't do a followup physical survey himself. I will leave it to Bill to correct my understanding of his process if I'm wrong.
                SecTrainer you are correct. The guide sent to them is the same guide, word-for-word that I use when performing the survey. I got that idea from seeing how AF IG's work. The command has all the IG checklist for that particular command or major subordinate command and each subordinate commander is required by the wing or base commander to ensure all those areas for which he or she is responsible. Then there are "The Inspector General Briefs" that published by the HQ USAF or a major command such as ACC or MAC inform the entire service or a command of common deficiencies noted or items of new interest that will be the subject of inspection on the next IG or Operational Readiness Inspection.
                Now what I do is send the prospective client the checklist I am going to use if and when they decide to hire me. I do not sandbag a client, no trick questions or gobbledygook.
                The same type of information is in that guide. The TSCM materials you received is sent to a client so they can check that phase of the inspection should they want that depth. That is coordinated with the technicians who would actually perform that phase. That technical group may suggest the perspective client use a precheck form for a specific need.
                The same type material is sent to the client from the power quality technician. The client has to have those records available before the start of the survey.
                Security inspections take time and effort on the part of both the survey team as well as the client's. The inbriefing consists of all the elements of that business who have been well briefed by the person who owns or runs the enterprise. Then you and they fan out and review all their work and inspect on your own with them at your side. Step-by-step-by-step is the orderly manner to do your inspection. You need a photograph, you point out what you need and they do it and you or a team member marks down on his or her notes what the photograph is, from what direction under what light conditions and the reason for the photograph and its importance to them and the survey.
                Somebody always goes with us, no slight of hand, they see what I see.
                I visit the site in the middle of the night or at other times. If the lights are to stay on at all times or just certains ones, I want to see that for myself as I encourage the client to do as well before my arrival. If someone is falling down on the job, he makes corrective action.
                That's all I do. Everyone is thoroughly briefed beforehand, no surprises and few if any ruffled feathers.
                You asked me what time it was and I told you how to build a watch. But I thought clarification was necessary.
                Enjoy the day,
                Bill

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bill Warnock
                  You asked me what time it was and I told you how to build a watch. But I thought clarification was necessary.
                  Enjoy the day,
                  Bill
                  I appreciate the detail, Bill - it confirmed what I had understood about your process in somewhat broader strokes.
                  "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                  "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                  "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                  "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    One final note. We should encourage our clients to conduct a periodic self-inspection to ensure quality of operations. You might think, well what about us, we'll not get much work that way. Yes we will, someone not caught up in their day-to-day operations can come in and look at things afresh. That is why I encourage the client to develop a comprehensive guide for themselves and keep it up to date.
                    Preparedness - preparedness - preparedness!
                    Enjoy the day,
                    Bill

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bill Warnock
                      One final note. We should encourage our clients to conduct a periodic self-inspection to ensure quality of operations. You might think, well what about us, we'll not get much work that way. Yes we will, someone not caught up in their day-to-day operations can come in and look at things afresh. That is why I encourage the client to develop a comprehensive guide for themselves and keep it up to date.
                      Preparedness - preparedness - preparedness!
                      Enjoy the day,
                      Bill
                      Something else here, too. The "educated" client makes a much better partner in client/vendor relationships, which will usually sooner or later come into play as the consultant recommends solutions in the way of security systems or services that will usually be purchased from third-party vendors, not the consultant.

                      Even if the consultant continues to provide some interface between his client and the third-party vendor, it will be the client/vendor relationship that becomes predominant on a day-to-day basis, and the consultant usually fades into the background. As such, you want to leave your client with the savvy to manage that contract from their side successfully on their own, and that means educating them.
                      "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                      "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                      "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                      "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by SecTrainer
                        Something else here, too. The "educated" client makes a much better partner in client/vendor relationships, which will usually sooner or later come into play as the consultant recommends solutions in the way of security systems or services that will usually be purchased from third-party vendors, not the consultant.

                        Even if the consultant continues to provide some interface between his client and the third-party vendor, it will be the client/vendor relationship that becomes predominant on a day-to-day basis, and the consultant usually fades into the background. As such, you want to leave your client with the savvy to manage that contract from their side successfully on their own, and that means educating them.
                        Excellent perspective! Let me add to that:
                        If newer or additional security equipment is needed, the client should be encouraged to prepare a “Functional Purchase Description” for each required security system or item.
                        You as the consultant should provide the basic structure as a template for further development. The wording of the functional purchase description should state compliance testing is the responsibility of those bidders determined responsive utilizing a NIST accredited testing laboratory in that specialty. A functional purchase description should be the collaborative work of security, procurement, personnel, safety, legal and insurance underwriter with the consultant in an advisory role. A signed coordination sheet should be filed with the master copy of the document. The wording of the functional purchase description should state the client reserves the right to conduct tests using a NIST accredited testing laboratory utilizing the exact compliance testing protocol as the bidders.
                        It is strongly recommended the security consultant not design, install, service, or maintain security equipment with an end user. Consulting services in this venue should be limited to the engineering or contracting firm. To do otherwise, would remove his or her mantle of independence and impartiality.
                        It must be emphasized that you as a security consultant have allegiance to no one except the client with the intent to serve all who request your assistance.
                        Enjoy the day,
                        Bill

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I am reminded of the old saying, "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will be able to feed himself from then on." Give the client the tools to better perform his mission and he will be able to stand on his own two feet. He will call upon you to help him tweak and peak his program. The word gets out to his fellow security managers and you wind up with more work than you really want or need.
                          Enjoy the day,
                          Bill

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mr. Security View Post
                            I welcome any additional training that may be required, as long as wages are commensurate with the qualifications mandated. In other words, I'm not interested in additional schooling for a 10/hr position. Hopefully the hourly rate will be at a livable wage.
                            This is exactly the issue as I see it when it comes to officers and training standards. There is without a doubt that the responsibilities of security officers has grown greatly just within the last couple of years alone. However, the rate in which security officers are paid has not to equal the amount of responsibilities. In addition, if pay rates were to increase I am about willing to put money on the fact that better quality individuals would be hired rather than what I like to call the, "hot body," syndrome.

                            I as a trainer definitely want to raise the training standards and I am charged in my current duties as doing as such for now. But the chief complaint I've heard from my officers is that if they are going to be raised to the next level, at least give them the pay rate that would be respectful for receiving that training.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
                              I would estimate that a comprehensive physical security survey of a typical small manufacturing plant (say, up to 500 employees) might well take a week or more from start to finished report, and especially so if the survey addresses supply chain security issues.

                              Heck, you could easily spend two days just in your initial interviews, reviewing the facility's history, studying the plant drawings, getting relevant crime statistics and response capability information from the police, and observing the different shift traffic/work patterns before you ever looked at a single lock on a single door or set foot on the roof to take a gander at the vents.
                              SecTrainer,

                              This is a great topic!

                              I agree with your time estimate for the assessment pricing- if it is straightforward. It really depends on the depth of the report and amount of presentations. I have worked on assessments with fees of $5K and others at $250K

                              Regarding training for SOs- It is a subject that I am constantly discussing with clients. Most problems are usually due to a lack of training, not because of negligence by the security officer.

                              Perhaps collectively the writers of RFPs for contract security officers need to specify the level of training that each SO is to receive. Unfortunately, many RFPs are written by purchasing departments with little detail or knowledge of scope.
                              "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." G. Orwell

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
                                Something else here, too. The "educated" client makes a much better partner in client/vendor relationships, which will usually sooner or later come into play as the consultant recommends solutions in the way of security systems or services that will usually be purchased from third-party vendors, not the consultant.

                                Even if the consultant continues to provide some interface between his client and the third-party vendor, it will be the client/vendor relationship that becomes predominant on a day-to-day basis, and the consultant usually fades into the background. As such, you want to leave your client with the savvy to manage that contract from their side successfully on their own, and that means educating them.
                                Bill W and SecTrainer,

                                I have been responding as I read this thread so bear with my multiple posts.

                                You have nailed the goal of any security consulting organization in my opinion-nice!

                                John
                                "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." G. Orwell

                                Comment

                                Leaderboard

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X