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  • ValleyOne
    replied
    Whether it's the MMPI-2, or 3 or 4 or even 5, these tests are similar to locks; Whatever can be created by man can be defeated by man...

    Leave a comment:


  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr. Security
    Ahh, the MMPI; took it twice (first time: inconclusive ) What a pain in the butt. I prefer multiple interviews and past employer checks. People pass that test too many times even though they have issues.
    I believe the MMPI-2 was developed in part because it did become apparent that some people had learned to manipulate the results. This was observed particularly when the MMPI was used on prison populations, for instance, to determine whether an inmate should be receiving treatment for certain sociopathic conditions.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr. Security
    replied
    Originally posted by SecTrainer
    ValleyOne:

    Also note that testing can be a very useful part of the screening process.

    For instance, security companies are generally exempt from the federal law that prohibits most employers from using polygraph examinations for anything but situations involving the investigation of an established loss coupled with other evidence of possible employee involvement. State law may override the federal exemption, however.

    If there is no state prohibition, the polygraph can be used by security companies, particularly for applicants for security officer positions. I know of only two companies that use them, however, because of the expense and time involved.

    A number of companies use "honesty" tests, although their value is the subject of great debate and it seems counterintuitive to think that a liar would tell the truth in such a test, but the better ones are designed to check for lying.

    Finally, a number of companies use a few of other kinds of tests:
    • "Psychological profile" tests such as the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI in various forms). These tests look for any of a number of traits such as adaptability, sociability, mental disorders (depression, paranoia), sociopathy, etc. A slightly different form of "profile" test works differently. You start by giving the test to, say, 20 or 30 of your best people in a particular position (officer, say) to establish a "baseline" of what a desirable candidate's profile should look like, and then compare the results of applicants to that profile. This kind of testing has been used very successfully for sales and service positions.
    • "Intelligence" tests or tests of thinking ability and speed (the Basic LE test required for admission to Florida POST academies is of this type).
    • "Knowledge" tests. A company that is hiring individuals who have worked and previously trained elsewhere may wish to satisfy itself that the candidate does, in fact, know the appropriate state law, basic procedures, etc. that the previous training and experience would indicate. Companies that have done this have made amazing discoveries about the "training" that so-called "lateral entry" officers have received elsewhere.
    • Tests of physical skills - firearms, baton, OCP, keyboarding, etc.


    As a peripheral matter, it should also be noted that you can learn something about people merely by observing their attitudes about testing and their behaviors during testing. Are they annoyed about testing? Are they easily frustrated during tests? Do they perform the test in a "slapdash" manner? So, don't overlook this "secondary value" to be gained from including testing in your background process.

    And...one cautionary note: Any testing that is done must have some demonstrable relevance to the job for which the candidate is applying, and psychological/personality tests, in particular, should also have been independently verified ("validated"), meaning that the test has been proven to truly test what it claims to test. Any marketer of properly designed tests will be able to provide proof that the "validity" of the test has been properly established.
    Ahh, the MMPI; took it twice (first time: inconclusive ) What a pain in the butt. I prefer multiple interviews and past employer checks. People pass that test too many times even though they have issues.
    Last edited by Mr. Security; 02-03-2007, 09:35 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Originally posted by SecTrainer
    I respectfully disagree. You advertise for a reason...not only to get the most qualified candidates in the door, but also to act as the first "filter" for those who are not qualified or who would not be interested in the job if they knew a little more about it.

    "Minimalist" ads that do not attract the people you want or advise others that they do not qualify are a false economy. Place an ad that not only provides the essential description of the job, but also the minimum absolute qualifications. Skilled employment advertising is not done along the lines of an actor's "cattle call" for a Broadway play. If all you're going to say is "Guard wanted - $9/hr", you could do as well standing on a downtown corner hollering for applicants...and that would be free.

    There are other ways to economize, or get the most bang for your buck. For instance, you're better off advertising some days than others or in some papers than others, etc. You'll do better with fewer, more informative ads carefully placed...and the cost difference won't be that great in the only terms that matter - dollars per qualified candidate - not dollars per the number of the "great unwashed" coming through your door.

    ..and remember, one of the things you want to do in your ad is not just to keep the unqualified away, but to SELL the job to the people you want. You don't do that with "Guard wanted - $9/hr". Emphasize the aspects of the job that are unique, interesting and/or challenging, as well as any special skills that might be desirable, even if not absolutely required - e.g., "..basic Spanish language skills helpful".

    Where you really waste money is in dealing with hordes of phone calls and unqualified candidates - even if it is only through the first prescreening stage. What's your time worth, or that of your secretary? Even one minute of contact with someone who isn't right for the job will cost you something, and while you can't hope to avoid it completely, you should try to minimize it every way you can.

    And whether your "probationary period" is three months or six, you need to develop a written policy statement about just what that means (there are many things it can't mean) and make sure you have a signed copy in the employee's file.
    You have a point, and I agree. Strangely enough, even the local police departments where I've lived put the following in their newspaper ads:
    DEPUTY SHERIFF
    Pinellas County is hiring for the
    position of DEPUTY SHERIFF -
    ROAD DEPUTY. Salary starts at
    $34,500. Applications accepted
    at 51000 Ulmerton Road, Largo.
    PCSO EOE

    Leave a comment:


  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Originally posted by ValleyOne
    NA, I am not that tech-wise. I am trying to get a website together so that is in the works.
    You'll get a lot of good ideas (and see a lot of very amateurish designs as well) by visiting as many security company websites as possible before you launch anything, VO. Here again, a little expenditure with a website pro can be a wise use of your website funds and set you apart in terms of your image.

    Good luck!

    Leave a comment:


  • ValleyOne
    replied
    NA, I am not that tech-wise. I am trying to get a website together so that is in the works. I would rather list as much of the job duties as I can, those that know they can do it will, hopefully, step up. Those that know they can't won't. Then I will be weeding out those that think they can.

    I have planned to do my business advertising in the local paper on the two largest distribution days, one of which is the weekend edition. I would like to also place a "Help Wanted' either during the days I already advertise, or just suck it up and go for a few weeks at a time. I will also be utilizing the state employment dept. they offer free help wanted ads, and can screen some of the applicants to meet whatever I desire to be the qualifications. You could go so far as to have a typing requirement of 55wpm and they would require the applicant to show proof that he/she has that ability. So I feel that would be in my best interest to use that option.

    So, since it's late here in Oregon, I wil get back to crunching my cashflow numbers for my worse case scenarios. (Needed the break)

    Leave a comment:


  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    I wouldn't waste the money on putting job description, etc, on the ad.
    I respectfully disagree. You advertise for a reason...not only to get the most qualified candidates in the door, but also to act as the first "filter" for those who are not qualified or who would not be interested in the job if they knew a little more about it.

    "Minimalist" ads that do not attract the people you want or advise others that they do not qualify are a false economy. Place an ad that not only provides the essential description of the job, but also the minimum absolute qualifications. Skilled employment advertising is not done along the lines of an actor's "cattle call" for a Broadway play. If all you're going to say is "Guard wanted - $9/hr", you could do as well standing on a downtown corner hollering for applicants...and that would be free.

    There are other ways to economize, or get the most bang for your buck. For instance, you're better off advertising some days than others or in some papers than others, etc. You'll do better with fewer, more informative ads carefully placed...and the cost difference won't be that great in the only terms that matter - dollars per qualified candidate - not dollars per the number of the "great unwashed" coming through your door.

    ..and remember, one of the things you want to do in your ad is not just to keep the unqualified away, but to SELL the job to the people you want. You don't do that with "Guard wanted - $9/hr". Emphasize the aspects of the job that are unique, interesting and/or challenging, as well as any special skills that might be desirable, even if not absolutely required - e.g., "..basic Spanish language skills helpful".

    Where you really waste money is in dealing with hordes of phone calls and unqualified candidates - even if it is only through the first prescreening stage. What's your time worth, or that of your secretary? Even one minute of contact with someone who isn't right for the job will cost you something, and while you can't hope to avoid it completely, you should try to minimize it every way you can.

    And whether your "probationary period" is three months or six, you need to develop a written policy statement about just what that means (there are many things it can't mean) and make sure you have a signed copy in the employee's file.
    Last edited by SecTrainer; 02-02-2007, 07:00 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Originally posted by ValleyOne
    OK,. let me see if I am getting THIS down right;

    1) You put an ad out. Listing the Job description, qualifications required, disclaimers (e.g. Must meet criminal disqualifiers to even apply, MUST read/write/speak English fluently). Applicant must provde a copy of his/her DMV ropert for the last 5 years. This will allow me to see how they regard others when driving. It will also allow me to see if they will/are an risk. Set a deadline for apps to be turned in by, or keep 'Open unill filled."

    2) CAREFULLY screen applicants. Select those that appear to meet all, or more, of the qualifications.

    3) Verify information provided on application. Then verify again.

    4) Contact those candidates that appear to be best suited for the job for an Initial Interview. During this interview take careful notes, I was actually considering recording the interview by means of an audio recorder. I have learned that some people react differently when being recorded. I would also use this to refer back to as I may have missed something and may need to add it to my notes. I, for one, feel if you have a problem with being recorded during an interview what are you trying to hide? I mean I will be providing myself and my Officers audio recorders so that they can do this in the field right? (Yes guidelines are in place for that purpose)

    5) Those that successfully pass the Initial interview will then be subjected to a thorough background check. As well as set up a time for some sort of testing (If I can afford to do so. I guess this would be along the same lines as the theory of how can you afford NOT to advertise?). I say some sort as I haven't decided n what type of testing I will be able to perform.

    6) Of those that pass Step 5 sit down and go over everything again to make sure I didn't miss anything. As I go over each applicant review their; demeanor, appearance (they will be representing me and my clients), their test scores, they employment history and especially THEIR given reasons for leaving, their attitude towards my company, the application process, as well as their eagerness-are they to excited about being armed? Are they too cocky? Are they lacking the ability to clearly get their point across? Are they to, well I can't think of the term, but wishy washy? Can they articulate their actions if asked what they would do in a scenario based situation? Then cosider their described actions.

    7) Of those remaining select the one that best fits the job. Have them sign their Non-Compete agreement (Limited to one year and only two counties (50 miles)), and a Nondisclosure agreement stating that during and after emplloyment will they NOT confirm, disclose, or inform anyone of the operations of my company and my clients. Unless, of course it is in due course of a criminal investigation, then they would expected to fully cooperate.

    I am planning on extending the typical probationary period from 90 days to 180. My reasoning for this is two fold, 1) anyone can BS their way through three months, and 2) in this neck of the woods typical law enforcement agencies have a probie period of one year. I don't see any reason not to obide by the same standards, afterall I do and will continue to have a strong working relationship with them. Their are some proprietory issues I have, but trust me, my services will 100% accountable. Iron Clad.

    I don't want to seem like a dictator, I love to play jokes/pranks with those I work with and generally have a good time, but their is a TIME and PLACE for that. I mean who doesn't? One thing I have learned from the city cops here is that they bash the county guys left and right on some issues that they themselves do, they just hide it better. For instance, they bash them on gathering around and having a cup of coffee and a good BS session. The county does this, but mostly in areas where they can bee seen by anyone. The city guys do this, but they have their little hiding spots... Which kinda pisses me off, people griping cuz they see a few cops having a cup of coffee and usually start with something along the lines of 'don't you guys have something better to do?' I just want to ask those people where they work, and if I can come by when their on their break and give the crap for having a cup of coffee and filing stuff away.

    Sorry didn't mean to get off track there...

    Anyone have a decent FTO program they would like share with me? I am trying to cherry pick from the standard here in Oregon.

    I REALLY do appreciate all your help on this,

    THANK YOU!!!
    I wouldn't waste the money on putting job description, etc, on the ad. Have a written statement as part of the application packet of what the job description, process they will go through, etc is. Or, put that information on a website and reference the site in your ad.

    Never refuse to hand an application out. It can be considered discriminatory. Give any idiot the application, let them wash out or not bother to return it.

    Also, on the initial filling of the application out, stick them in a room. Do not let them leave with the application. Do not let others come in and take an application with them. You will have one person take the application, fill it out in English in another's name, then that will wait to get the job, and next thing you know... You have a non-english speaker you just hired. (I watched this happen, the company I worked for would hire you the same day you turned an app in at times. It was hilarious.)

    As far as an FTO program, most security companies don't bother. The only training they do is site based, and that happens 30 minutes (at minimum wage training pay) before your first shift, by the guard you're supposed to relieve.

    I've written an FTO program before, but unfortunately it was NDA'ed. However, you can take a look at the NAFTO site, which is the National Association of Field Training Officers (Police), and view their model FTO programs.

    http://www.nafto.org/

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    Valley One as SecTrainer both pragmatically and eloquently wrote, you want this to be a culling exercise; and, as he and others have pointed out, you do not want to do anything that will bring legal action to your doorstep in the way of negligent hiring. In everything we do in this business, we must always consider the end result. If one must error, err on the side of caution.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

    Leave a comment:


  • ValleyOne
    replied
    OK,. let me see if I am getting THIS down right;

    1) You put an ad out. Listing the Job description, qualifications required, disclaimers (e.g. Must meet criminal disqualifiers to even apply, MUST read/write/speak English fluently). Applicant must provde a copy of his/her DMV ropert for the last 5 years. This will allow me to see how they regard others when driving. It will also allow me to see if they will/are an risk. Set a deadline for apps to be turned in by, or keep 'Open unill filled."

    2) CAREFULLY screen applicants. Select those that appear to meet all, or more, of the qualifications.

    3) Verify information provided on application. Then verify again.

    4) Contact those candidates that appear to be best suited for the job for an Initial Interview. During this interview take careful notes, I was actually considering recording the interview by means of an audio recorder. I have learned that some people react differently when being recorded. I would also use this to refer back to as I may have missed something and may need to add it to my notes. I, for one, feel if you have a problem with being recorded during an interview what are you trying to hide? I mean I will be providing myself and my Officers audio recorders so that they can do this in the field right? (Yes guidelines are in place for that purpose)

    5) Those that successfully pass the Initial interview will then be subjected to a thorough background check. As well as set up a time for some sort of testing (If I can afford to do so. I guess this would be along the same lines as the theory of how can you afford NOT to advertise?). I say some sort as I haven't decided n what type of testing I will be able to perform.

    6) Of those that pass Step 5 sit down and go over everything again to make sure I didn't miss anything. As I go over each applicant review their; demeanor, appearance (they will be representing me and my clients), their test scores, they employment history and especially THEIR given reasons for leaving, their attitude towards my company, the application process, as well as their eagerness-are they to excited about being armed? Are they too cocky? Are they lacking the ability to clearly get their point across? Are they to, well I can't think of the term, but wishy washy? Can they articulate their actions if asked what they would do in a scenario based situation? Then cosider their described actions.

    7) Of those remaining select the one that best fits the job. Have them sign their Non-Compete agreement (Limited to one year and only two counties (50 miles)), and a Nondisclosure agreement stating that during and after emplloyment will they NOT confirm, disclose, or inform anyone of the operations of my company and my clients. Unless, of course it is in due course of a criminal investigation, then they would expected to fully cooperate.

    I am planning on extending the typical probationary period from 90 days to 180. My reasoning for this is two fold, 1) anyone can BS their way through three months, and 2) in this neck of the woods typical law enforcement agencies have a probie period of one year. I don't see any reason not to obide by the same standards, afterall I do and will continue to have a strong working relationship with them. Their are some proprietory issues I have, but trust me, my services will 100% accountable. Iron Clad.

    I don't want to seem like a dictator, I love to play jokes/pranks with those I work with and generally have a good time, but their is a TIME and PLACE for that. I mean who doesn't? One thing I have learned from the city cops here is that they bash the county guys left and right on some issues that they themselves do, they just hide it better. For instance, they bash them on gathering around and having a cup of coffee and a good BS session. The county does this, but mostly in areas where they can bee seen by anyone. The city guys do this, but they have their little hiding spots... Which kinda pisses me off, people griping cuz they see a few cops having a cup of coffee and usually start with something along the lines of 'don't you guys have something better to do?' I just want to ask those people where they work, and if I can come by when their on their break and give the crap for having a cup of coffee and filing stuff away.

    Sorry didn't mean to get off track there...

    Anyone have a decent FTO program they would like share with me? I am trying to cherry pick from the standard here in Oregon.

    I REALLY do appreciate all your help on this,

    THANK YOU!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • SecTrainer
    replied
    ValleyOne:

    Also note that testing can be a very useful part of the screening process.

    For instance, security companies are generally exempt from the federal law that prohibits most employers from using polygraph examinations for anything but situations involving the investigation of an established loss coupled with other evidence of possible employee involvement. State law may override the federal exemption, however.

    If there is no state prohibition, the polygraph can be used by security companies, particularly for applicants for security officer positions. I know of only two companies that use them, however, because of the expense and time involved.

    A number of companies use "honesty" tests, although their value is the subject of great debate and it seems counterintuitive to think that a liar would tell the truth in such a test, but the better ones are designed to check for lying.

    Finally, a number of companies use a few of other kinds of tests:
    • "Psychological profile" tests such as the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI in various forms). These tests look for any of a number of traits such as adaptability, sociability, mental disorders (depression, paranoia), sociopathy, etc. A slightly different form of "profile" test works differently. You start by giving the test to, say, 20 or 30 of your best people in a particular position (officer, say) to establish a "baseline" of what a desirable candidate's profile should look like, and then compare the results of applicants to that profile. This kind of testing has been used very successfully for sales and service positions.
    • "Intelligence" tests or tests of thinking ability and speed (the Basic LE test required for admission to Florida POST academies is of this type).
    • "Knowledge" tests. A company that is hiring individuals who have worked and previously trained elsewhere may wish to satisfy itself that the candidate does, in fact, know the appropriate state law, basic procedures, etc. that the previous training and experience would indicate. Companies that have done this have made amazing discoveries about the "training" that so-called "lateral entry" officers have received elsewhere.
    • Tests of physical skills - firearms, baton, OCP, keyboarding, etc.


    As a peripheral matter, it should also be noted that you can learn something about people merely by observing their attitudes about testing and their behaviors during testing. Are they annoyed about testing? Are they easily frustrated during tests? Do they perform the test in a "slapdash" manner? So, don't overlook this "secondary value" to be gained from including testing in your background process.

    And...one cautionary note: Any testing that is done must have some demonstrable relevance to the job for which the candidate is applying, and psychological/personality tests, in particular, should also have been independently verified ("validated"), meaning that the test has been proven to truly test what it claims to test. Any marketer of properly designed tests will be able to provide proof that the "validity" of the test has been properly established.
    Last edited by SecTrainer; 01-31-2007, 08:10 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    Originally posted by ValleyOne
    Wow, I appreciate everyone's replies. Oregon's criminal disqualifier list is pretty wide. SEE HERE FOR LIST They basically have three (3) levels. Lifetime, 10 years, and 7 years of unable to be certified to as a Private Security Provider (PSP). They also don't really care if your were convicted in Oregon, another state, OR the Military! If you were convicted of the crime or an equivalent crime in those other places, your gonna have to wait it out. PSP, is their attempt in a 'catch all' term for everyone from Security Officer to Loss Prevention 'Agent' to Armored Car Driver. Speaking of that I have only seen Armored TRUCKS, never cars....but I digress...

    As far as a DMV check is concerned, it's a matter of doing all I can do to keep the costs down, and I don't feel that I should pay an increase on my premiums because Applicant Jack Daniels can't keep his foot off the gas and has three speeding tickets in the last year as well as, one DUII 9 months ago. Sorry buddy, try someone else...

    The charactor reference tips were great, I will need to consult with counsel to see if it is in fact legit in Oregon to do so. I try to save everything, and have a few apps I have filled out and then scanned onto my puter, will have to reread that fine print again to see if it makes a reference to a full and complete release of liability, and if so, to what parties is the immunity given.

    Thanks again to all...
    ValleyOne, never make any decisions without coordinating with counsel and have the opinion rendered in writing, never ever verbal. Further, ensure the personnel officer provides written ascent and that it sent to counsel for their written opinion. If there is a difference in opinion between those two offices let them battle it out and presented to the CEO, president, whomever before any actions or changes are made.
    Any post or patrol orders, when drafted by your department, must be concurred with by all affected departments before they are implemented. The signature implementing the orders must be inscribed by the senior most executive in your company. Create a master copy of those orders with all applicabe coordinations in a safe location with copies of the coordinated orders sent to all the concurring departments.
    Don't get stuck out there on that breezy limb by yourself.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

    Leave a comment:


  • ValleyOne
    replied
    Wow, I appreciate everyone's replies. Oregon's criminal disqualifier list is pretty wide. SEE HERE FOR LIST They basically have three (3) levels. Lifetime, 10 years, and 7 years of unable to be certified to as a Private Security Provider (PSP). They also don't really care if your were convicted in Oregon, another state, OR the Military! If you were convicted of the crime or an equivalent crime in those other places, your gonna have to wait it out. PSP, is their attempt in a 'catch all' term for everyone from Security Officer to Loss Prevention 'Agent' to Armored Car Driver. Speaking of that I have only seen Armored TRUCKS, never cars....but I digress...

    As far as a DMV check is concerned, it's a matter of doing all I can do to keep the costs down, and I don't feel that I should pay an increase on my premiums because Applicant Jack Daniels can't keep his foot off the gas and has three speeding tickets in the last year as well as, one DUII 9 months ago. Sorry buddy, try someone else...

    The charactor reference tips were great, I will need to consult with counsel to see if it is in fact legit in Oregon to do so. I try to save everything, and have a few apps I have filled out and then scanned onto my puter, will have to reread that fine print again to see if it makes a reference to a full and complete release of liability, and if so, to what parties is the immunity given.

    Thanks again to all...

    Leave a comment:


  • globalinstincts
    replied
    I just went through the process and in addition to the detailed lists above, I was also screened for Social Security/Public Assistance.
    I think it was a matter of tax breaks for the company, and not a disqualifier.

    Also... In CA, you fill out a form that allows them to pull your driving record anytime they want (during your time of employment).

    Leave a comment:


  • Curtis Baillie
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr. Security
    Seems a bit liberal to me, especially since a second DUI in CT (other states too) involves mandatory jail time.
    The second DUI is the disqualifier. This would be cause for not hiring or termination if the affected employee is being rechecked due to promotion.

    My criteria for DMV is used where employees either operate company vehicles or use their own vehicle for company business.

    Leave a comment:

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