Job-Wage Comparisons

[SecTrainer]

It's just a matter of pure economics that when people have a variety of types of work they might do, they will gravitate toward those that offer the "best" combination of duties, working conditions and wage (unless they happen to have a special interest in a particular type of work, in which case they'll only compare working conditions and wages among different employers in that particular field).

This makes it very useful for us to compare the wages we're offering to security applicants with those of other jobs in other fields that the typical applicant might choose instead, like factory work, the proverbial "fast-food restaurant", construction labor (not skilled), retail, etc. Let's call these other jobs "comps", like the way we use comps in real estate to help decide what our house is worth.

What job classifications do you think represent reasonable "comps" for unarmed security positions for purposes of comparing the wages, benefits and working conditions? If the wages in these jobs help to determine the "base wage" that is appropriate for security, do you also think there should then be an added "differential" to this wage level for the fact that the security officer has responsibility for life safety while most other jobs do not?

[Eric]

If you do more or are accountable for more, you should have a higher wage.
Safety, alarm response etc are part of the job and I would think the base wage should reflect it. However, if a company needs to reflect a difference of duties to a group of assigned employees in each pay scale, a differential amount should be added, much like overnight pay.

Of course, making a business case would not be easy.

[N. A. Corbier]

If you do more or are accountable for more, you should have a higher wage.
Safety, alarm response etc are part of the job and I would think the base wage should reflect it. However, if a company needs to reflect a difference of duties to a group of assigned employees in each pay scale, a differential amount should be added, much like overnight pay.

Of course, making a business case would not be easy.

This really depends on what your actual job description is.

If your job is only to observe events and report them, then responding to burglar alarms should not be part of your job. It places the guard at risk, and either a response company or the police should investigate the alarm.

Why, you ask? Because the guard is not trained nor equipped to deal with burglars who may harm him realizing that he knows their presence.

Most safety stuff really wasn't our issue. Observing leaks and spills and stuff, yes, this is base pay stuff. Fire watch, as well. But, if you have to go manipulating machinery, etc... This isn't in the "observe" and "report," and should either be the job of maintenance or you should be paid accordingly.

I remember one site where the client told us to enter an area under a tank of Tolulene and turn a dial on a large control board if an alarm activated. Most of the guards did it without question.

They did not realize that they were entering an area where you had to have positive-pressure respirators and face masks. When I brought this up (I do not breathe dangerous chemicals professionally or recreationally...) to the safety director, he said that was my employer's problem.

[Eric]

That is some safety director....his company president may have a different opinion.
There is a big push up my way to let younger workers know they are most at risk, for that very thing noted.

You are right, advice will be different for different roles, those of us that been in the field for a decade plus would not pretend different.

[Bill Warnock]

This really depends on what your actual job description is.

If your job is only to observe events and report them, then responding to burglar alarms should not be part of your job. It places the guard at risk, and either a response company or the police should investigate the alarm.

Why, you ask? Because the guard is not trained nor equipped to deal with burglars who may harm him realizing that he knows their presence.

Most safety stuff really wasn't our issue. Observing leaks and spills and stuff, yes, this is base pay stuff. Fire watch, as well. But, if you have to go manipulating machinery, etc... This isn't in the "observe" and "report," and should either be the job of maintenance or you should be paid accordingly.

I remember one site where the client told us to enter an area under a tank of Tolulene and turn a dial on a large control board if an alarm activated. Most of the guards did it without question.

They did not realize that they were entering an area where you had to have positive-pressure respirators and face masks. When I brought this up (I do not breathe dangerous chemicals professionally or recreationally...) to the safety director, he said that was my employer's problem.

Nathan:
Had you or one of your employees been in the area when this tank caught fire and exploded, you or they would have been vaporized. At a US Army Ammunition Plant that made TNT, a principle ingredient, hence the name, trinitrotolulene, had one of these things go bang and took out the surrounding area plus making a nasty hole in the ground. One big breath of this stuff will put you down. At least you told the Delta Alpha what should have been done. How many warm body guards would have had that knowledge?
As for the safety director, some folks are born stupid others master the trait only after years of hard work.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[N. A. Corbier]

Actually, Bill, the five hundred gallon tank of organophosphene out back would of vaporized the entire facility and the surrounding half mile.

We had mini tanks, as well, forklift capable. Security was not involved in safety operations, except for one rule. Any employee who saw anyone speeding with a blue OP tank could report it. The speeding employee would be fired.

[Bill Warnock]

Nathan, were all of your folks issued protective gas masks and self-injectors of atropine + 2-PAM?
Had what you described happened, Hiroshima in 1945 would have been child's play. Depending upon the wind and dispersal patterns, cataclysmic would have a new definition. Just think of the dead, the dying, the very sick and those who would suffer long term medical problems. Security guards or officers with no special training or emergency response drills or evacuations.
OMG, Nathan!
Bill

[SecTrainer]

Nathan:
Had you or one of your employees been in the area when this tank caught fire and exploded, you or they would have been vaporized. At a US Army Ammunition Plant that made TNT, a principle ingredient, hence the name, trinitrotolulene, had one of these things go bang and took out the surrounding area plus making a nasty hole in the ground. One big breath of this stuff will put you down. At least you told the Delta Alpha what should have been done. How many warm body guards would have had that knowledge?
As for the safety director, some folks are born stupid others master the trait only after years of hard work.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

Fortunately, toluene is not the same thing as trinitrotoluene. Toluene has to be nitrated and heated to produce TNT. Not to say toluene doesn't have it's own safety issues, of course, but nothing like TNT.

[SecTrainer]

Actually, Bill, the five hundred gallon tank of organophosphene out back would of vaporized the entire facility and the surrounding half mile.

We had mini tanks, as well, forklift capable. Security was not involved in safety operations, except for one rule. Any employee who saw anyone speeding with a blue OP tank could report it. The speeding employee would be fired.

What's organophosphene, Nathan? I find no MSDS under that name (which it would have to have) or even doing a full-text search on hazmat databases. I do get a bare handful of Google references, which is a very tiny response for any industrial/military chemical. Does it go by some other name perhaps?

The only hit I get on it of any significance refers to "using an organophosphene extractant" in a patent description for a metallurgical process. This language suggests to me that this is not actually the name of a chemical, but perhaps a type or family of chemicals.

[Bill Warnock]

Fortunately, toluene is not the same thing as trinitrotoluene. Toluene has to be nitrated and heated to produce TNT. Not to say toluene doesn't have it's own safety issues, of course, but nothing like TNT.

You are correct but that is one liquid that does not like to be rough handled and when it burns, wow, look out. Toluol is what they use in commercial applications. Kids like the buzz it give them from huffing.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[N. A. Corbier]

Fortunately, toluene is not the same thing as trinitrotoluene. Toluene has to be nitrated and heated to produce TNT. Not to say toluene doesn't have it's own safety issues, of course, but nothing like TNT.

Safety issues include: Trying to ignite it, having your skin rapidly defatted by getting it on you, becoming chronically senitized to it...

And no, we were not provided with PPE as it "was the client's responsibility" and the client said "No, its not, you're contract guards."

[N. A. Corbier]

What's organophosphene, Nathan? I find no MSDS under that name (which it would have to have) or even doing a full-text search on hazmat databases. I do get a bare handful of Google references, which is a very tiny response for any industrial/military chemical. Does it go by some other name perhaps?

The only hit I get on it of any significance refers to "using an organophosphene extractant" in a patent description for a metallurgical process. This language suggests to me that this is not actually the name of a chemical, but perhaps a type or family of chemicals.

I'll find the exact name, I believe its a class of chemicals, all with similar composition. Unfortunately, I'm 5 years from having the MSDS in my hand.

Ha! I spelled it wrong.

http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic1677.htm

Organo-phosphate.

[SecTrainer]

Thanks - I think the organophosphates are insecticides (perhaps used for other things also) and have effects on humans that are very similar to sarin and other nerve agents. Very, very nasty stuff indeed.

[Bill Warnock]

Thanks - I think the organophosphates are insecticides (perhaps used for other things also) and have effects on humans that are very similar to sarin and other nerve agents. Very, very nasty stuff indeed.

SecTrainer:
OP started out as insecticides, but the German military saw it potential as war gases. Some of the experiments were carried out on humans by both the Nazi and Tojo's regimes.
Cholinesterase inhibitors in the OP family do their job very affectively. We can thank the Israeli Government for giving our Government a chemical shell found in a captured Egyptian tank. Testing proved the Soviets had changed the chemical formulation of a nerve agent and as a result we added 2-PAM to our antidote. Recall, the Soviet military used a 3-1 ratio in their field munitions, that is every third round would be a chemical round. VX and GB were considered on the par with CN and CS gases.
That is why Nathan's post gave me pause, no protection for their guards.
Thanks for your interest.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[locknid]

I think like another poster said it depends on what the duties are. here in AZ for the most part the corporate security companies which only do high rises, gated communities, vehicle patrols, stuff like that generally get paid 8-11 dollars an hour for regular guards there. Then sadly armored car drivers in this state seem to only get paid about 10-12 dollars an hour, even though there is a huge danger factor, pre-hiring process. Then there are the proactive companies like my company i work for which does many apt complexes, convience stores, and a few other things in some of the worst areas in the state, where it can get really dangerous and the company usually starts at 13-15. Also how much overtime you let employess get makes a huge difference too. I know one guy with my company that with 88 hours a week he makes around 100,000 grand a year. But I know for a fact its impossible to live on even 9-10 bucks an hour here in AZ especially with a family