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  1. #11
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    494

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    What a waste of government time and taxpayer money.

    No judge or prosecutor should have to be burdened with stupid crap like this.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Orange, CA
    Posts
    340

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    The dollar amount isn't an issue here. It is policy, with the grocer that is my employer's main client, that EVERY person caught shoplifting signs a form stating that they may not return and what will happen if they do. Simple violation of this "agreement", and not the small theft, is the issue. They were legally barred from the store....period. They take there chances violating that. This judge handicapped that store and set a terrible precedent.
    Tom Duprey
    Owner/Relentless Risk Management

  3. #13

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    Crime is crime, there is nothing stupid about it, except for maybe that the guy repeated the offense. If theft is a waste of time then it shouldn't be a crime, or alternative punishments that are enforceable should be created that removes a judge and prosecutor from the offense. This should go beyond civil recovery, that could potentialy end of taking a lot of courtroom time up, and money if the civil recovery isn't paid. A city citation like some places use is mariginaly better but not much.

    Using a dollar value to judge the severity of the crime is the exact plague that ORC festers on. Most place that have misdameanor theft values these groups work activily to stay under those limits. If caught they just get a slap on the wrist out the next day or sometimes even that day, and are back at it again.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Orange, CA
    Posts
    340

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    Amen!!!!!!!!!!!
    Tom Duprey
    Owner/Relentless Risk Management

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    NV
    Posts
    1,465

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    Its interesting that there are, in essence, two seperate discussions going on in this thread: One regarding justice, and another regarding the realities of the legal system.

    In the interest of justice, I fully agree that a repeat offender should receive, on a guilty finding, a court mandated punishment commensurate to the crime.

    The reality of the world we work in is that, once we take down a crook, we, as security officers, turn them over to the gentle ministrations of (normally) the District Attorney's Office and the appropriate criminal courts... who are operating under a completely different set of pressures than we are. And then the dollar (and the voter) does come into acount...

    Cynical? Yes. But that's the world we live and work in...
    "I'll defend with my life your right to disagree with me" - anonymous

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    El Dorado County, CA
    Posts
    247

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5423 View Post
    Its interesting that there are, in essence, two seperate discussions going on in this thread: One regarding justice, and another regarding the realities of the legal system.

    In the interest of justice, I fully agree that a repeat offender should receive, on a guilty finding, a court mandated punishment commensurate to the crime.

    The reality of the world we work in is that, once we take down a crook, we, as security officers, turn them over to the gentle ministrations of (normally) the District Attorney's Office and the appropriate criminal courts... who are operating under a completely different set of pressures than we are. And then the dollar (and the voter) does come into acount...

    Cynical? Yes. But that's the world we live and work in...
    On top of that, folks are disregarding the facts as we have them from the rather sad news article this thread is based on, most specifically concerning that we don't know whether the subject signed a trespass form or received a verbal trespass. Legally, if it wasn't written (by the store manager, store agent [eg security guard] or responding police agency), the trespass doesn't exist. Even if it had been written, it would have had to be a ban with a term no less than four years for the trespass to be valid, and the most he could have received would have been the misdemeanor petty theft.

    I'm sure that this wouldn't even be an issue if the case came from Texas -- we'd simply be reading the dumba**'s obit.
    Most of what we call management consists of making it difficult for people to get their work done.
    -- Peter Drucker

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    florida
    Posts
    875

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt.Campbell View Post
    On top of that, folks are disregarding the facts as we have them from the rather sad news article this thread is based on, most specifically concerning that we don't know whether the subject signed a trespass form or received a verbal trespass. Legally, if it wasn't written (by the store manager, store agent [eg security guard] or responding police agency), the trespass doesn't exist. Even if it had been written, it would have had to be a ban with a term no less than four years for the trespass to be valid, and the most he could have received would have been the misdemeanor petty theft.

    I'm sure that this wouldn't even be an issue if the case came from Texas -- we'd simply be reading the dumba**'s obit.
    In Florida we can institute a lifetime trespass warning. As the fl supreme court had rules unless specified in the trespass warning that the written warning doesn't expire. Also if the offender refuses to sign the trespass warning we just write refused in the space provided for the offender to sign.
    "Get yourself a shovel cause your in deep Sh*t"

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt.Campbell View Post
    On top of that, folks are disregarding the facts as we have them from the rather sad news article this thread is based on, most specifically concerning that we don't know whether the subject signed a trespass form or received a verbal trespass. Legally, if it wasn't written (by the store manager, store agent [eg security guard] or responding police agency), the trespass doesn't exist. Even if it had been written, it would have had to be a ban with a term no less than four years for the trespass to be valid, and the most he could have received would have been the misdemeanor petty theft.

    I'm sure that this wouldn't even be an issue if the case came from Texas -- we'd simply be reading the dumba**'s obit.
    I'm not really ingoring facts, I lack the knowledge as to the state/county procedures, there are a lot of places where there is no need for a signed tresspass. Some areas only require verbal, some require the tresspasser to leave the premise before the tresspass takes effect, others are imediate. Around these parts, it only needs to be verbal for an agent of a property to enforce it and arrest, for a police officer they need it on a run sheet. This can be simply phoned into the department.

    I belevie the article did mention that he had this issue 3 years prior, now its just a matter if the ban specified a length or not. I would imagine if he was apprehended this information would have been passed off to an officer.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Montreal borough of Verdun, Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    5,982

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    I think I always say this when this topic comes up but gee i wish we had a trespass act in Quebec
    I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    El Dorado County, CA
    Posts
    247

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    I belevie the article did mention that he had this issue 3 years prior, now its just a matter if the ban specified a length or not. I would imagine if he was apprehended this information would have been passed off to an officer.
    In Florida we can institute a lifetime trespass warning. As the fl supreme court had rules unless specified in the trespass warning that the written warning doesn't expire. Also if the offender refuses to sign the trespass warning we just write refused in the space provided for the offender to sign.
    Understood -- I was pointing out the fact that we don't know whether the trespass was verbal or written and what the term limit on the ban was (because of the crappy reporting).

    Additionally, under Kansas law, it appears that he DID qualify for aggravated burglary:

    21-3716. Aggravated burglary. Aggravated burglary is knowingly and without authority entering into or remaining within any building, manufactured home, mobile home, tent or other structure, or any motor vehicle, aircraft, watercraft, railroad car or other means of conveyance of persons or property in which there is a human being, with intent to commit a felony, theft or sexual battery therein.

    Aggravated burglary is a severity level 5, person felony.
    Kansas is rough on burglars, I guess.

    After doing a tiny bit of research, there is nothing in Kansas law stating that the business owner (or agent of the business) needed to have a written order of trespass, nor did he have to do anything more than state that the subject was not welcome to stay. The subject was indeed guilty of criminal trespass under Kansas law.
    Most of what we call management consists of making it difficult for people to get their work done.
    -- Peter Drucker

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