MOAB Training

[Security_K9_Guy]

I've taken MOAB and I enjoyed it and gained a lot from it. I didn't learn to run away. I learned to recognize aggressive behavior and hopefully mitigate it before it develops into a physical confrontation and if a physical confrontaiton exists how to deal with it.

[SecTrainer]

Look at it this way: MOAB gives you some very useful tools to hang on your belt, and tools don't have to be "violent" or as one person mistakenly calls them, "proactive" (which did give me a good laugh, thanks).

You don't discount pepper spray just because it isn't "as physical" as the baton, or the baton because it isn't "as deadly" as the gun.

In fact, the less violent the tool, the more useful it's likely to be.

If all you had hanging from your belt was a firearm, you'd be gravely handicapped, because you have no tools to use unless - and until - the use of deadly force is justified - and the fact is, most confrontational situations never reach that level.

You use the tool that's appropriate in the situation.

[SpecialAgentKC]

Look at it this way: MOAB gives you some very useful tools to hang on your belt....

You use the tool that's appropriate in the situation.

Sage advice....

"To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill." --Sun Tsu --K.

[Anderson1976]

Look at it this way: MOAB gives you some very useful tools to hang on your belt, and tools don't have to be "violent" or as one person mistakenly calls them, "proactive" (which did give me a good laugh, thanks).

You don't discount pepper spray just because it isn't "as physical" as the baton, or the baton because it isn't "as deadly" as the gun.

In fact, the less violent the tool, the more useful it's likely to be.

If all you had hanging from your belt was a firearm, you'd be gravely handicapped, because you have no tools to use unless - and until - the use of deadly force is justified - and the fact is, most confrontational situations never reach that level.

You use the tool that's appropriate in the situation.

Well one thing that won't be hanging on your belt is your keys, because you threw them down when you ran in a panic. Funny how some of the very people that collect money to teach MOAB get bent out of shape over an online post lol, maybe they need to put into practice their own material, or maybe it just simply don't work.

[Security_K9_Guy]

Well one thing that won't be hanging on your belt is your keys, because you threw them down when you ran in a panic. Funny how some of the very people that collect money to teach MOAB get bent out of shape over an online post lol, maybe they need to put into practice their own material, or maybe it just simply don't work.

I'm not an instructor nor anyway connected to it. I have been through the training and I use it.

I won't give up my keys because I need to get home

[Pop pop]

I believe the MOAB training is a very useful tool as Sec-Trainer has said, not all training modules is as useful as this one is, I would sit in on a class. Any training can help an officer, but the fact is, some training is more useful then others. Wearing a pistol is not a cure all, in fact, it places more responsibility on the officer wearing one, your "always" responsible for your bullets. Anyhoo, getting back to throwing your keys in one direction and running towards a safe environment in another direction, it reminds me of an old statement by my Master Sergeant. "A Good Run is better then a Bad Stand".

Dying isn't much of a living.

[SecTrainer]

Well one thing that won't be hanging on your belt is your keys, because you threw them down when you ran in a panic. Funny how some of the very people that collect money to teach MOAB get bent out of shape over an online post lol, maybe they need to put into practice their own material, or maybe it just simply don't work.

Pop Pop: Hope you don't mind if I quote your Master Sergeant. He was a very smart man.

Anderson:

You continue to impugn the motives of someone you don't know - while ignoring the evidence of other members of the forum who don't teach MOAB and have no "financial interest" in the subject.

"Running away" is NOT a "core concept" of MOAB, as I assume you know perfectly well since you say you attended the course. I'm not sure how that theme got introduced, but let me refresh your memory.

First of all, MOAB is taught not only to security people, but also to law enforcement personnel. You know - people with guns. People who aren't prohibited from the use of force by company policies, as many security people are. You might ask yourself why.

Second, MOAB teaches people how to assess potentially violent situations as early as possible, how to avoid doing dumb things that unnecessarily make situations worse - and how to bring the situation to a satisfactory conclusion without the need to use force - IF POSSIBLE. Kindly enlighten all of us how that is not a good thing to be able to accomplish.

Third, MOAB really has nothing whatsoever to say for or against the use of force if that becomes necessary - AND if force is a feasible option. You do learn to respect the value of distance and the use of superior numbers when available, but no MOAB instructor I know of would ever suggest that if things go south despite your best efforts to control the situation that you shouldn't fight - and if so, to fight with every skill and/or weapon at your disposal.

Fourth, sometimes force isn't feasible. Sometimes it isn't even the best option, no matter if you're justified in using it, and no matter how well you're armed or what the law, departmental (or company) policies might "allow" you to do. Sometimes "retreat" is the absolutely the right thing to do and the best thing to do. As such, it would be pretty damned stupid not to incorporate these considerations such as "leaving an avenue of escape" in the training, now wouldn't it?

Examples:
1. Innocent bystanders could be hurt.
2. You're outnumbered.
3. You're outgunned.
4. "He's got the drop on yuh, Tex".
5. There's no immediate risk to others, and you can afford to wait until you have the upper hand.

You'd better have some strategies for those situations, Officer Anderson.

(When you talk about "avenue of escape", you almost always have to spend some time in class reassuring the more insecure trainees that "retreat" doesn't mean you have no cajones. These guys are pretty easy to spot from the front of the room because they always keep one hand in their pocket, hanging onto their gear for dear life.)

As a police officer there were times when - from a legal and even a tactical standpoint - I would have been justified to use force, but for various reasons (see #1-5 above) it wasn't the smart thing to do, or even the BEST thing to do. We didn't have MOAB training when I was a cop, unfortunately, but we did have training in what was called "deescalation" and, even more important, I did have an excellent FTO who had more street smarts than you or I put together - and who didn't have a chip on his shoulder or "something to prove". We went into domestic situations, bar fights, people threatening to commit suicide - you name it - and he showed me the value of the very same methods that MOAB teaches.

I could tell you stories about how Roberts (my FTO) talked a rampaging drunk with a knife out of a treatment room in the local emergency department using a banana - and without a single punch being thrown or anyone being cut. Or the biker who was in handcuffs before he knew it while Roberts admired his bike - and then giggled all the way to jail while Roberts described his first experience on a motorcycle (which he drove into the back end of a garbage truck). Roberts actually had tough guys who were threatening to eat him for lunch out on the street thanking him for the way he treated them - while he was closing the door on their cell. Meanwhile, we had some other guys on the force who were notorious for not being able to issue a traffic citation to a little old church lady without getting into a brawl. With these guys, your main job when they rolled up as backup on a call was to keep them from turning the situation into a riot.

I saw it, and I lived it, and in time I became known on the department as the guy who could talk a hopped-up rhinoceros to jail. That's because I didn't just see what Roberts did - I learned from it.

You might try it yourself. Take the course again, and this time take an open mind and learn from it. Your job will be easier, and who knows? Someday it might even save your life.

And one other thing. This thread isn't a situation where MOAB or any other deescalation techniques have the slightest relevance in terms of how I deal with this conversation. When you say something ignorant on this topic, I'm going to call it exactly like I see it - especially when you're misinforming other members of the forum. Suggesting that being frank about your appalling lack of knowledge about MOAB must mean the methods themselves don't work is like saying that dental methods must be useless because they can't be used to fix hip fractures. Apples and oranges.

[Pop pop]

Pop Pop: Hope you don't mind if I quote your Master Sergeant. He was a very smart man..

Yes Sir, Thank you Senior Instructor SecTrainer, hope you don't mind if I place your quote into my Signature?

[SecTrainer]

Yes Sir, Thank you Senior Instructor SecTrainer, hope you don't mind if I place your quote into my Signature?

Permission granted, recruit. Now, police the company area!