I was hoping with the attach picture that someone with some insight could give me a constructive conclusion on layout and camera types needed to possibly pick up some useful information from intruders and thieves on this property at night. I have a lorex all in one system (l23wd) and would like to add some kind of ptz or other actual camera to this system.
Also depending on knowledge here...Maybe can I get a refer to somewhere I may get more help?
Just another update,prior theft value on first occasion $50,000 and second $40000 dollars.Both times the intruders brought vehicles and loaded them up. Bolt cutters where used both times and one of the lights were cut. The interesting part is the shear amount of weight involved in the tools(90lb jackhammer,concretes saws,core machine etc.) and materials(36" reels of copper wire ranging from 2/o-#6 etc.)is amazing. The servellance system is to gather information if a vehicle is used in the theft. Please don't think I would want camera monitoring if every once in awhile someone jumped a little fence as was running off with a roll of duct tape and a box of screws.That is not the case here. We have discussed a dog which may work if I upgrade the fence and teach it to use the toilet. Also if it bites the intruder here in California I might go to prison and have to paid the burglars doctor bills.(not sure on cali law on that) Is there any other forums that might help so I can gather more information?
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 6 of 6
Thread: Layout and suggestions
10-28-2010, 11:41 AM #1Junior Member
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
Layout and suggestions
10-28-2010, 02:15 PM #2
I am frequently called in to conduct security assessments of outdoor yard areas such as yours. In most cases, video cameras would be way down the list of the types of things that I would recommend to improve security at a facility of your type.
In most cases, I would first recommend improvements in the perimeter fencing and outdoor lighting before I suggested cameras. If possible, I would also suggest the creation of secondary secured areas within the yard area where high value items could be stored. (see Concentric Circles of Protection concept on my website.)
I might also look at some type of outdoor intrusion alarm system using either fence protection or outdoor motion detection. Depending on where the facilty is located and the expected law enforcement response, I might consider the use of an audible (siren and/or voice message) rather than just a silent alarm.
After having done all of this, I might consider the use of a few well-placed cameras. I would position cameras to view a few strategic areas (such as near where high-value items are usually stored) rather than attempt to cover the whole yard. Keep in mind that lighting is crucial in order for the cameras to properly capture an image, so you may need to add additional lighting or use infrared illuminators to help the cameras see better. Identifying vehicles and particularly license plates is a tricky business so you will need to place your cameras carefully to have any chance of success.
Personally, I would rather invest in good physical security measures that prevent the theft from happening in the first place, instead of investing in camera systems that may or may not allow you to identify the bad guy after the fact.
I would be happy to answer any other specific questions that you may have. Please feel free to contact me through this forum, or directly by phone or email.Michael A. Silva
10-28-2010, 05:26 PM #3
There's a reason the images you got out of your cameras were useless, and that's because the entire video system is useless. I understand you're soured on the idea of cameras, probably because after both robberies, the cops looked at the blobs and squiggles on the screen and shrugged their shoulders. But it doesn't have to be like that.
I hate to be blunt, but your current DVR will never give you the detail you need to make an ID, no matter what kind of camera you buy. Most of the image quality depends on the DVR, not on the camera. You've got a consumer grade system, probably cost about $1,500, to stop an annual expectancy of, what, $90,000 thus far this year? The details of the two prior thefts point to a well organized, professional crew. You will need professional grade professional grade equipment to deal with this problem.
You say that your annual loss came to $90,000 this year, so you need to spend less than 5% of that to protect your site in order to be cost effective. 5% of $90,000 is $4,500. A $4,500 budget will be tough to work with, but it is doable, especially if you want to install the system yourself.
First, the DVR. You need something reliable and decent resolution. The cheapest good DVR I know of is the Everfocus ECOR264-9X1 for $869.95. That's a 9 channel DVR with a 1TB hard drive.
I make the distance, line of sight, from the SE corner of the building to the eastern gate as, roughly, 140 feet or so (based on rough back of the envelope calculations, using the size of one of the pickup trucks in the image and 17.5 feet as the length of an F150, so tell me if I'm wrong). An infrared camera with a 50mm manual zoom lens will see an image 14.4 feet across and 10.8 feet high, with enough detail to see color, make, and model of a vehicle and give you a good shot of identifying faces as well. The camera capable of doing this would be $369.95.
Obviously, it will be too expensive to mount cameras everywhere to see everything, so the best way to place cameras are to identify 1) chokepoints (such as gates) and 2) areas of interest (storage sheds, vehicles- especially forklifts, and so on). So, say, 5 cameras. Add in cable, power supplies, a battery backup in case you lose power, and a steel lockbox to secure the DVR, you're talking about $3,424.75 before shipping.
Send em a message if you have any further questions.The CCTV Blog.
"Expert" is something like "leader". It's not a title that you can ever claim for yourself no matter what you might know or might have done. It's a title that others bestow on you based on their assessment of what you know and what you have done.
10-28-2010, 11:17 PM #4Commando Leader
- Join Date
- Aug 2005
- Rivet City, Capitol Wasteland
Looking at that, I'd deploy a real camera system as well as make some improvements to your perimeter. A 6 foot razor wire fence means nothing if I can just cut it, roll it back, and drive a truck through the thole.Some Kind of Commando Leader
"Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law
10-29-2010, 01:16 PM #5
Good suggestions have already been given here.
1. Given the loss experience that you've had, I'd imagine you'll be hearing from your insurance carrier if it happens again (or may have already heard from them), assuming you're filing claims. This phone call or site visit will not be for the purpose of delivering "good news". Many carriers will simply kick you to the curb if you have more than two similar losses of this magnitude. And if you're not filing claims, the losses themselves are all the "bad news" you need.
2. Figure up your real losses, which can be greater than the direct loss itself. What happens to your business operations when you have such losses? What does it actually cost you to recover from the loss? Projects get delayed (perhaps with penalties), employees are standing around getting paid to do nothing due to lack of tools/supplies, your business reputation suffers, customers go elsewhere, etc., etc. As a rough rule of thumb, figure your real loss to be 2 to 3 times the value of the direct loss. To this total of actual loss, add one-third more (or multiply by 1.33) to account for the fact that you're going to have at least one more similar loss if you do nothing because these people haven't been stopped yet. This is your "do-nothing" loss number - and it's very conservative. If the "do-nothing" number isn't in the range of at least $250 to $300,000 you're not doing the math.
3. Work up a budget. Given the loss number you develop in step #2, what are you prepared to spend on this problem?
4. Spend those dollars first on prevention and detection (sensors, alarms), realizing that detection is meaningless without some sort of monitoring and timely response. Harden the target before doing anything else.
5. Identification is the third piece of the puzzle, and will be impacted by what preventive and detection measures you select. For instance, without an infinite budget no hardening measures will be perfect, but they will help to limit and to dictate what sort of attack can be successful. This, in turn, would impact the locations for your sensors and sensors impact the location of your cameras (e.g., for purposes of alarm verification).
Better still, skip steps 1-5 and hire a competent security consultant. This is the only real "bargain" in this whole mess. He'll know what's available to accomplish the job, and he'll keep you from wasting your money and spinning your wheels on things that might seem like good ideas but aren't. In fact, he might well save you more than his fee, and the results will undoubtedly be much more to your liking. It's gone past the point of being a problem for security amateurs to solve.
Last edited by SecTrainer; 10-29-2010 at 01:32 PM.A man who will not lie to his wife has no regard for her feelings. - Anon.
My school was so tough we had our own coroner. - Lenny Bruce
In my neighborhood, you could walk 10 blocks in any direction and never leave the scene of a crime. - Charlie Callas
10-29-2010, 03:23 PM #6Senior Member
- Join Date
- Jan 2009
I am tailoring my responses here to the fact that based on the items stolen you are some type of construction company owner. So my responses are going to be based on ideas using your probable skills (or those of someone you may be able to barter for) for free or low cost to make up for the expense of detection devices.
1. First harden your perimeter to attacks. I would do this by doing the following;
A. Move your fence line in 3 to 4 feet from where it stands now
B. Purchase enough 6 foot steel pipes that are 6 to 12 inches in diameter that you can place them along where your fence use to be between where the fence is now and the property line every 3 feet on center.
C. Burry 4 feet of the pipe and fill it up to the stop with cement.
D. Paint your freshly made improvished bollard yellow and slap some DOT reflective strips (they can be purchased at Wal-Mart) on them. So no car "accidentally" hits them and you get blamed.
E. Ditch the 6' fence and get 8'. Run razor wire along the top with 2 or 3 strands of barbwire at the top and in the center of the razor wire.
What you have just done is now make it hard for some to easily climb over the fence (though I doubt they were doing this given the weights of the things taken). Razorwire with just posts high enough to keep it from falling is not enough. You need something to run along it, reinforce the razor wire. Otherwise some skilled skinny guy is gonna climb the fence, push the razorwire outta the way and in he gets. In addition with bollards that appear to be robust and won't be easy to dig out, you elimate the ability for some guy to pull up the fence, cut the chainlink and in he goes. Nate already point that issue.
2. Harden your gate
A. Put four improvised bollards (2 inside the yard, 2 outside the yard) so that they line with the fence posts on either side of the opening.
B. Run high strength steel cable to each across the opening on each side of the gate. Permanently attach the cable to one post, on the other post use the heaviest duty lock you can find.
C. and use one solid gate that rolls upen and closed.
A. Do as you did on A. above, but make the posts to be about 2 1/2 feet to 3 feet above the ground.
B. Grab some of that steel piping in a length that is longer then the gate by about 3 to 4 feet.
C. Rig a catch on post that will guide the Pipe into so it rests and stays on the pipe. Rig a hindge on the other post so that the pipe can be raised up and down like a Arm. On the end with the hindge add a box (can be wood or metal) and fill it with counterblance (dirt, rocks whatever). It should be heavy enough to make lifting and lowering the pipe (now another gate) easy, but not so heavy as the pipe doesn't want to stay down. Find a way (heavy, well built chain and a good padlock) to anchor the other end of the pipe down when you want it locked and closed. Ensure that your properly mark and paint both the gate posts and the gates themselves or the cable.
What you have just done is created a delay tactic. Now someone needs to cut three pad locks, or two pad locks and the chain link on your gate to get into your yard with a vehicle. They can't just run the gate without risking serious damage to their own vehicle.
3. Create a mini-hardened area within your yard to store high-value and high-target items. Use similar methods as above to secure this area. If you are storing anything in a building harden the O/H doors by building gate arms or cables across as well. Again it won't stop a determined crew, but it will slow them down. Time is their enemy and the longer it will take them to get to their target and then get out the less likely they will visit you.
A. Do a realistic study of the lighting, is your yard completely lit up? If it is you are doing it wrong.
B. Only have lights that are on 24/7 at the gate (both your main and the one to the high value area), windows and doors to buildings. Make sure the lights are in housings and positioned as not to cause glare from passerbys and cameras.
C. Next place bright, motion activated lights that cover the rest of your yard. What this does is attract attention attention to anyone who might happen to be in the area, because they will see these guys/gals setting off motion lights and doing potentially criminal acts. There is plenty of studies that indicate miminal 24/7 lighting combined with properly placed motion lighting is more of a deterent then flooding an area with light. So you get a more effective security feature that in the long run will cost you less.
5. Alarms & detection systems
A. Purchase a higher end DVR and its accompanying video management from a company like Bosch, Pelco, or Intellex. Expensive, yes but when you see what I am going to do with it, you will agree it is best.
B. Next purchase high quality cameras (I have used Pelco and Bosch where I am now and love the Bosch's over the pelcos) and place them in the yard. You will want to do the following:
- 2 or three of them should be set up for wide area coverage, with 2 or three you should be able to cover 80 to 90 percent in enough detail to see what happened.
- Additional cameras that (a) focus on the main gate, doors / windows to your building and gate to your inner secured yard, if not that whole inner yard as well. What you are looking for when you do this set up is to be focused in enough to get very nice pics of what a man sized target looks like and a vehicle. Since this is happening at night, I can say from my personal experience that my Bosch dome cameras out perform my Pelco cameras at night even though they are similar models, just different makes. Though the Bosch will cost you more and both are at least two times the amount Cameraman qouted you above.
C. Since you went upscale your DVR should be able to transmit alarms with video shots or clips via e-mail to people, like you and your cell phone. So when the camera detects motion and triggers an alarm it sends that info your phone. You look at it, go hey thats someone breaking in and you call your local PD and report it. PD's generally give burglaries confirmed by video higher priorties over just alarm activated burglaries with no eyewitness or video confirmation.
D. Since you went upscale, your cameras detected an alarm and activated a horn and flashing light in your yard. Now your criminals are panicked and more likely to just run or grab and run (and remember they have also activated flood lights). Or if you want to catch the perps, you don't hook up the cameras to any alarms or flashing lights.
E. Since you went upscale, your DVR system is tied into physical security alarms. So if these motion detectors and other access control system components detect a problem they can trigger the camera to go into alarm mode as well.
Finally higher a guard or guard company (Cali has some licensing laws so if you hire your own guard besure to follow whatever laws BSIS has in place on in-house security staff) to provide a guard at your site. Have him work for random lengths of time and on random nights (I suggest you pick those nights and times to ensure they are random). You can have him work a total of 8 to 16 or so hours a week. Not a huge expense, but with a random security presence that comes and goes and stays for random amounts of times. You have made your target harder.
Finally, nothing is criminal proof, all of these suggestions at most are going to deter a criminal from going to you. Is all of this hellaexpensive? Yes it is, but when the crooks dont go to you but to other places. Well it will be worth is in the long run. These are just my two cents.Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be courageous; be strong. - 1 Corinthians 16:13
The cleanliness of our hearts, The strength of our limbs, and commitment to our promise.
My military contract is up and over. However, I never needed to affirm that I would defend the constitution, our freedoms, our way of life from enemies both domestic and foreign. Do not think that since I am no longer in the military, I will not pick up a weapon to defend my family, my home or my country. - Me!