Armed Officers: What type of weapon?

[Charger]

Hello all!

Someone mentioned something in another thread that made me think about this, so I thought I'd get a general idea of the preferences around here..

For all you armed Officers, what type of weapons do you carry, or prefer to carry? Did you have the purchase it yourself, or did your agency supply it?

Another question, do you follow the ideal that all Officers within an agency should carry identical weapons, for the sake of using a fellow Officer's ammo in a bad situation? Even though that particular weapon may be good for one Officer, but another may be only mildly proficient with it?
Or do you believe Officers should be able to use the weapon they're the best/most comfortable with?

My current agency is unarmed for the time being, but when I used to do patrol I carried a Walther P99 9mm... purchased it myself, as well as all my other duty gear. That agency allowed us to choose our own weapon, as long as it was a name brand (ie. S&W, H&K, Glock, Beretta, etc) and not a cheap knock-off.

And, as long as we're on the subject, civilian mags, or pre-ban (LEO) mags? :)

[Arff312]

Ok i am not armed but one of the agencies i work with (not sure how much longer though) does allow you to be armed if certified. You have to buy your own weapon and ammo. but you have to meet within a certian few weapon types. Now it is my opinion that i will carry a 40 cal. Glock when i do go armed. Also i feel that officers should not be required to carry the same weapon when you have to supply your own weapon. Also i feel that if you are going to be armed your weapon and ammo should be provided to you. But for some reason most security agencies dont do this. I am not sure why.

[Charger]

Ok i am not armed but one of the agencies i work with (not sure how much longer though) does allow you to be armed if certified. You have to buy your own weapon and ammo. but you have to meet within a certian few weapon types. Now it is my opinion that i will carry a 40 cal. Glock when i do go armed. Also i feel that officers should not be required to carry the same weapon when you have to supply your own weapon. Also i feel that if you are going to be armed your weapon and ammo should be provided to you. But for some reason most security agencies dont do this. I am not sure why.

Well, from what I understand from speaking to some of the executives at my previous company, there's a few reasons they don't supply the weapons....
#1- (Obvious) Cost... Anywhere from $400 - $1000 extra per Officer, JUST for the weapon... that could add up to a lot of money for some companies..
#2- Liability... (Supposedly) there have been cases where companies supplied their Officers with weapons, and then got sued for their Officer using it on someone while off-duty... the only way to resolve this would be for all the Officers to turn their weapon in at the end of each shift... which again would add to cost, for secure lockers & whatnot to properly store all the weapons...

[N. A. Corbier]

I'm looking at purchasing 5 weapons for "comapny guns," for those employees who come to me without a weapon, or with a weapon that isn't on the approved list. One of the ways you get around the off-duty issue is a waiver of liability and notarized statement of intent, which may or may not hold up in court.

The other, of course, is to ensure that any shoot - on or off duty - will be justified through training beyond the state minimums for firearms carry. If your going to give someone a deadly weapon, make sure you know they know how to use it, including incident articulation after the fact.

I'm probally going to end up buying either Ruger P-Series in .40, or S&W Auto in 9mm. Why? Cost. Guns are expensive. If I was made of money, I'd have Beretta PX4 Storms in .40 caliber.

As far as having everyone carry identical guns, I can see the idea behind it, but lets face it. Everyone should be carrying 3 magazines - 2 in the carrier, 1 in the weapon. If they reach that last mag, something is really, really, wrong, and having more ammo probally won't save them. The police are not coming.

Usually, we can end a lethal encounter on the first magazine, if we can shoot straight, and we're not facing something like the Chinese Army attacking. I'm an advocate of shot placement over quantity - two to four rounds can stop a target.

I see there's a big trend in Wiscosnin to have people certified with the M4A2 .223 rifle. To be honest, I'm probally going to stick an M4 in at least one truck, there's alot of rural area up here, and if we can get a few land management contracts, I might even want a .308 in the trucks to destroy lame animals or defend against insane hunters. In that case, they'll be company weapons only, and stay with the vehicle at the end of the shift. Mags would be interchangable.

The only problem about M4s is finding someone who qualified as 80% or 90% with the weapon who dosen't already work for a police department full time. I'm not even sure I could qualify as expert on the M16 qualification, which is a general requirement for patrol rifles on most police departments. I figure they're doing it for a reason, the reason being demonstrating accuracy, and its a good idea to do it.

Your good old fashioned Remington 870 or Winchester Defender can deliver both accurate lethal fire, but has a new life as a dedicated less lethal weapon. By changing stocks and loading it with only Super Sock or PepperBall's 12 gauge pepper round, you have a less-lethal weapon that may prove to save a biligerant's life when lethal force may of been justified.

For those states that allow it, I've seen pepperball (pepper paint ball) employed in a novel but useful fashion for security. Room searches and clears, or interior intruder situations. You can put fire at the ceiling of the room your about to enter, which dispurses the pepper into the room through the door. US Bail Bonds has a training video where they demonstrate this, they just keep firing rounds into the room till the bad guy gives up. Even if he won't give up, you'll hear the bad guy. (Unless he's masked, then you have a whole new set of problems if your bad guy is wearing a gas mask).

[farscape]

I have seen many here with a .380, 38 and 9mm. As long as they have the training and permission by the head of the security company. I thought about it last year but no one pays any more here weather your armed or not. I would think a 380 would look strange on a uniform belt being so small. But like any gun I don't want to be on the receiving end of any of them no matter what caliber. But, some of you mentioned 40 caliber? Have other states granted this now because I was told .40's are not allowed in Florida. For the exception of the police.

[N. A. Corbier]

I have seen many here with a .380, 38 and 9mm. As long as they have the training and permission by the head of the security company. I thought about it last year but no one pays any more here weather your armed or not. I would think a 380 would look strange on a uniform belt being so small. But like any gun I don't want to be on the receiving end of any of them no matter what caliber. But, some of you mentioned 40 caliber? Have other states granted this now because I was told .40's are not allowed in Florida. For the exception of the police.

Oh, I'm in Wisconsin now. I can have employees carry ANYTHING that I can get them certified in to Wisconsin DAAT and Dept. of Justice Police Firearm Training Standards. Around here, most people carry .40s, some .45s... You can get away with carrying a .44 auto-mag if you can qualify with it.

BUT, in Florida, you can carry the taser, and we cannot. Only sworn LE personnel and the National Guard may even bring them into the state.

Florida, specifically, authorizes the 9mm, .38 Special, and .380 for security and PI licensees with the G license. A long time coming, too.

[davis002]

For my service weapon I carry a Glock 22 .40cal with Tritium sights and a M3 Streamlight Tactical Illuminator (see attached photo).

For my executive protection or plain-clothes assignments, I carry a Glock 27 .40cal (also serves as my backup weapon in an ankle holster as needed).

For ammunition our company issues Federal Premium .40cal Hydra-Shok.

And lastly, we are issued hi-cap magazines for our weapons.

[N. A. Corbier]

For my service weapon I carry a Glock 22 .40cal with Tritium sights and a M3 Streamlight Tactical Illuminator (see attached photo).

For my executive protection or plain-clothes assignments, I carry a Glock 27 .40cal (also serves as my backup weapon in an ankle holster as needed).

For ammunition our company issues Federal Premium .40cal Hydra-Shok.

And lastly, we are issued hi-cap magazines for our weapons.

How's the Hydra-Shok work in .40? That was the first choice for personal and agency carry I made. But, I like other opinions on it. :)

[Bill Warnock]

Whatever semiautomatic handgun you purchase and/or own, insure it has a decocking lever if you chamber a round to facilitate an immediate first shot. This allows the cocked hammer to be safely lowered into the safety position without touching the hammer. Further, make sure it has a firing pin lock that provides positive safety with the hammer in either the cocked or decocked position. If the weapon is dropped or otherwise struck with a degree of force, the firing pin cannot strike the primer causing an unintended discharge of the handgun.
I know we have moved beyond the Colt Model 1911A1. In special situations, we were allowed to holster the 1911A1 in the Cocked and Locked mode. There were occasions when the weapon was dropped on concrete with a subsequent discharge. That problem when away when Air Force adopted the S&W .38 Combat Masterpiece. The modern double action revolver has a rebound slide and a hammer block. My two cents!
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[EMTGuard]

I'm not armed but our company has a handful of Security Officers who are armed. The ones I've spoken with carry company issue S&W model 10 .38 Specials with 6 plain lead round nose bullets. Pretty pathetic.

[N. A. Corbier]

I'm not armed but our company has a handful of Security Officers who are armed. The ones I've spoken with carry company issue S&W model 10 .38 Specials with 6 plain lead round nose bullets. Pretty pathetic.

Just wait till they shoot someone, and not only fail to stop them, but kill them by putting so many rounds into them to get them to fall down that there's nothing left but swiss cheese.

That, and wait for them to shoot at someone and have the rounds impact a bystander or sensitive equipment behind the target.

[1stWatch]

Normally I carry a .40 caliber Beretta 96. I also own a .357 magnum Ruger GP100 and occasionally carry it on duty instead. I also carry a 3.17 oz can of Body Guard LE-10 oc spray and a steel straight baton.

[1stWatch]

Oh yes, the other part of the question. All the gear I had to purchase myself. I have yet to see any private security agency in Texas that will provide a weapon to a security officer at its own cost.
The magazines are civilian magazines that hold 10 cartridges per magazine.
As far as each officer carrying the same caliber of weapon, that person's job description would determine the necessity. Since most security officers I know work alone or with one partner at the assignment and purchase their own weapons, the idea of having the same type of weapon in order to swap magazines in the event of a lengthy shootout doesn't make a lot of sense. However, it does make more sense in the event there is a large team of security officers in an environment such as populated apartment communities in a high crime area or government housing authority.

[S/O245]

My agency issues some for on duty use they issue 45 cal and 40. I have a 9mm , 38 spl for off duty (CCW) also a 40 cal. I like 40 cal

Stay Safe All :)

[The_Mayor]

S&W .45 Air Lite Hammerless

[S/O245]

I have to re say that again lol. My agency issues weapons for on duty use to some assignments and supervisors. But all the armed officers also have his/her own weapon. The issued weapons stay at the office locked up when not in use. I think that Armed Officers can carry such weapons as 38, 357 mag 9mm 40 cal or 45 i dont know about 380. I would assume any legal law enforcement type weapon would be allowed. In order to take the OPOTC Private Security Firearms training the security academy commanders told me it had to be a law enforcement size weapon.

Im not assigned to a armed assignment right now. However i do carry off duty I have a Ohio CCW Permit. I mostly carry my 38 spl ultra lite hammerless revolver. I like it cause it dont weight much and is small.

Stay Safe All :)

[1stWatch]

My state requires security to carry a minimum caliber of a 9 mm in semiautomatic or .38 in non-semiautomatic. The maximum caliber allowed is .45 in semiautomatic and .44 in non-semiautomatic. Pistols such as a .22 or a .380 are not permitted for duty carry.

[S/O245]

Some people would say 38 is no good for duty. What do you all say ? I carry 38 spl for ccw and i like the 38. I think it would do pretty good for carry. For on duty carry i would probably carry 9mm or 40 just because i would have more rounds to capacity. You also hear some say 9mm is not good. I hear alot of the Military has changed to using 9mm for handguns. One reason is because the 9mm's i hera are cheaper in price and ammo i guess. I have a friend who is a Military PO and they carry 9mm for a handgun.

Stay Safe All :)

[N. A. Corbier]

Some people would say 38 is no good for duty. What do you all say ? I carry 38 spl for ccw and i like the 38. I think it would do pretty good for carry. For on duty carry i would probably carry 9mm or 40 just because i would have more rounds to capacity. You also hear some say 9mm is not good. I hear alot of the Military has changed to using 9mm for handguns. One reason is because the 9mm's i hera are cheaper in price and ammo i guess. I have a friend who is a Military PO and they carry 9mm for a handgun.

Stay Safe All :)

The military went to 9mm for the same reason they went to .223 from .308. It wounds the enemy, and does not kill them. If you kill an enemy soldier, you still have 50 more who want to avenge that soldier's death. If you wound the soldier, you have 45 soldiers who want provide cover fire, and four soldiers who want to save that soldier by carrying him/her to the rear for medical treatment.

The military also uses ball ammo to reduce the amount of hydraulic and kenetic trauma to gun shot wounds, as the purpose of shooting someone (on paper) is to make them a non-combatant, not a corpse.

[Mr. Security]

I'm armed with high-powered rubber bands. Their cheap, readily available, and do not require a special license/permit. Usually, one well-placed shot to the snouser (nose) turns the subject into a crybaby. :eek: :p

Sorry. Couldn't resist the urge anymore :D

[SeanCO]

I carry a Springfield XD 9mm, OC and an ASP.

[3rd_shift]

Glock 19, 9 mm with 10 in the magazine and 1 in the chamber plus, 2 extra 10 round magazines for 31 cartridges on me at all times.
Lightweight and comfy to carry for a whole shift.
Easy to maintain.

[Echos13]

I presently carry a 1st generation 9mm Ruger P-85 or a Taurus model 508 .357 (with .38 loads -sigh-) wheel gun with 2.5 inch ported barrel. Depending on calls the Rugar is ether on a tatical leg holster for high profile jobs or on my belt, right side to my back concealed. Ack! This Ruger, talk about the big gun look with out the big gun caliber. I need to get a Glock, maybe a Kimber or something. But the money is just not there. Maybe a used one? Thought about trading my Taurus and Ruger in for a used Glock. My Ruger goes back to my final police years (should have kept my Bersa mid-size). I remember getting a recall on the P-85 because they were going full auto on some owners. I really love my Ruger, it can stand just about any kind of treatment. But it's big, and with a full magazine, ai-ya!

[N. A. Corbier]

Anyone have any suggestions on what good company semi-autos should be? Opinion on Full Manual Safety vs. DAO?

I'm looking at purchasing some cheap pistols that will function when needs dictate, that won't hurt employee's hands, and that they will actually want to fire. Either in 9mm or .40 caliber, with a preference in .40 caliber.

I'm told that up here, the Wisconsin Gun Shows are so cheap you should bring an FCIC-enabled laptop to run serials. :) So, I think I can find some good used hardware.

[Crinsol]

All the known firearms manufacturers make good products, is all depends on fit for you. There are a ton of former military folks that are qualified on the Beretta. SIG's, Glocks, H&K, Kimber, Springsfield, Colt all are good. It all comes down to training, training and more training.

Also, not to get into a which round is better arguement, there is really not whole lot of difference between a 9mm, 40, 357 or 45. If your going to issue weapons and ammo, I would recommend 9mm purely for budgetary reasons. Have everyone practice with FMJ rounds and carry a decent round like gold dots or golden sabers. Hydroshocks work, no doubt about it, but try looking at some of the newer bullet technology.

Just my .02 worth.

[N. A. Corbier]

All the known firearms manufacturers make good products, is all depends on fit for you. There are a ton of former military folks that are qualified on the Beretta. SIG's, Glocks, H&K, Kimber, Springsfield, Colt all are good. It all comes down to training, training and more training.

Also, not to get into a which round is better arguement, there is really not whole lot of difference between a 9mm, 40, 357 or 45. If your going to issue weapons and ammo, I would recommend 9mm purely for budgetary reasons. Have everyone practice with FMJ rounds and carry a decent round like gold dots or golden sabers. Hydroshocks work, no doubt about it, but try looking at some of the newer bullet technology.

Just my .02 worth.

Why FMJ for practice? Granted, when I was young, my father used full wadcutters for target shooting, and JHP for defense rounds, but he wasn't in LE, he was just a gun collector. :)

I was thinking about 9mm for budgetary concerns, as well. If the people coming to me can be sufficiently convinced to practice regularly with their weapons, then hopefully rounds-on-target percentage will be sufficent enough that a 9mm will stop the threat.

I saw something about Expanding FMJ rounds, which looks rather interesting. There were several articles on this, where a hard core round has a FMJ with silicone spacer at the top. The jacket is scored so it opens correctly upon penetration, but won't clog in clothing or building materials.

For training purposes, I'm hoping to at least find a good range around here that won't care if I bring a group with duty gear and pistols and take up a few lanes for a few hours, just practicing. Perhaps some rifles, too.

Once a month, maybe once every three months, everyone is encouraged to come on out and shoot with everyone else. Company's buying the ammo, I know what Cheaper Than Dirt is. :) While I don't expect everyone to be friends, I would like some level of esprit de corps, so that these employees know they can depend on each other when something bad happens.

[Crinsol]

FMJ-because paper targets don't care :). But if you have the money go for it.

I have heard about rounds with silicon tips, and the data does not look very good.

[N. A. Corbier]

FMJ-because paper targets don't care :). But if you have the money go for it.

I have heard about rounds with silicon tips, and the data does not look very good.

Heh, I was thinking reloaded lead ball for paper. :)

[plankeye]

I carry a Ruger P94 .40 S&W 10 + 1
and a extra mag on my duty belt

Rugers make very good guns, might not have alot of additional accessories like a rail for a flashlight, though some models do have them. But Ive never had a problem with my ruger, its always ready to fire for me and have not had any jams or anything, they are easy to clean and maintain and they are cheap but quality made.

[N. A. Corbier]

I carry a Ruger P94 .40 S&W 10 + 1
and a extra mag on my duty belt

Rugers make very good guns, might not have alot of additional accessories like a rail for a flashlight, though some models do have them. But Ive never had a problem with my ruger, its always ready to fire for me and have not had any jams or anything, they are easy to clean and maintain and they are cheap but quality made.

I've had range time with the Ruger in 9mm, P series. Its a nice gun, easy to maintain, cheap for its quality, and all around good. Ruger sent me product information (someone suggested I ask for a T&E weapon, I'm quite sure Ruger will send me one - oh yes... Not.) on their P-series models for law enforcement. They're nice weapons.

I have a personal preference for Beretta, and I know that the reputation for S&W autos means cheap S&W autos. So long as the rep is not warranted, I won't hesitate to buy them for company weapons for employees who do not have duty weapons, or do not wish to purchase them. So long as the qualify with it, don't destroy it, keep it clean, and do not use it off duty, I have no problems with providing them a weapons, so long as I get it back in the same shape it was given (within reason). After all, they may not have a use for a gun outside of work.

[jimmyhat]

This is from a former Marine first sergeant  long read  but thought you might be interested in his son's assessment of weapons and enemy tactics in Iraq (the boy is home from his first tour, going back in early 2006, and early re-enlisted for another 4 years.). I left the wording intact, but emphasized various items. A weapon good enough for war overseas, might just be good enough for the homeland.

Assessments of US and Insurgent weapons, tactics, and small nuggets of information (like the fun fact noted under the M-16 reviewthat is the reason, during the US-Philippines/Moro action in the early 20th Centruy why we developed the .45 Cal pistolapparently being reissued as noted below amongst several other weapons).

1) The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys hit multiple times and still in the fight.

2) The .45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol round out there. Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one. With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put 'em down with a torso hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK military model and supposedly love it. The old government model .45's are being re-issued en masse.

3) The M-14: Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a modified version to special ops guys. Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.

4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun: Works well, used frequently for clearing houses to good effect.

15) Lights: Thumbs up. Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are Surefire's, and the troops love 'em. Invaluable for night urban operations. Jordan carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it.

[N. A. Corbier]

I personally think the .45 is a great round, the only problem is not everyone has the hand strength to control a weapon chambered in it, and not everyone wants to carry a weapon that's as heavy as a .45 caliber pistol.

That's my problem. You get someone who can't handle the recoil, and they fatigue quickly when they really need that weapon. Or, you get to the point where they're forgetting their weapon when going to the post, tired of carrying 6 pounds of pistol on their hip.

[Bill Warnock]

The reason we have the 9mm from Beretta was in thanks to the Italian Government for hostage release of a two star general seized by the Red Brigade. When hit by the .45 you go down. We are finding that out the hard way. Compare the 1911A1 Colt .45 to the P220 Sig .45 and you notice there is much less recoil and easier sight realignment.
The Marines gave up the M-14 after much protest.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[N. A. Corbier]

I seriously need to get my hands on a Sig for T&E. Of course, we're talking about an 800 dollar weapon, locally at retail stores. I'm looking, of course, for non-abused used weapons at gun shows, but that's alot like looking on ebay - you get what they give, and nothing more.

I had the misfortune of firing a compact Para .45. This weapon bit the hell out of my hand, and it was extremely discomfortable to finish putting 50 rounds through it, as I am wont to do when playing around or testing or whatever with a pistol. To me, a compact carry weapon is nice, and all, but if you can't shoot the thing, its worthless. I'm also going to find a place that rents Glocks, just so I have more than 1 firing experience with one. You know, one that actually works this time.

Nobody can argue the effectiveness of the .45 caliber pistol. It stops people - period. When I was growing up, my father ensured that I fired a 1911 at the age of 10, in case I ever had to use it to defend myself in the house if he was shot or otherwise hurt by an attacker. The rounds were almost subsonic, he used hand loads that were in the 700 fps range, and you could almost see the bullet in flight. But, at 10, I put the rounds in the black, all 7. That's all it took. That's what I'm after in a weapon. I give it to someone, and they can put rounds in the black, the entire magazine, under duress, and the rounds stop the bad guy. That's all I ask.

[SeanCO]

I seriously need to get my hands on a Sig for T&E. Of course, we're talking about an 800 dollar weapon, locally at retail stores. I'm looking, of course, for non-abused used weapons at gun shows, but that's alot like looking on ebay - you get what they give, and nothing more.

I had the misfortune of firing a compact Para .45. This weapon bit the hell out of my hand, and it was extremely discomfortable to finish putting 50 rounds through it, as I am wont to do when playing around or testing or whatever with a pistol. To me, a compact carry weapon is nice, and all, but if you can't shoot the thing, its worthless. I'm also going to find a place that rents Glocks, just so I have more than 1 firing experience with one. You know, one that actually works this time.

Nobody can argue the effectiveness of the .45 caliber pistol. It stops people - period. When I was growing up, my father ensured that I fired a 1911 at the age of 10, in case I ever had to use it to defend myself in the house if he was shot or otherwise hurt by an attacker. The rounds were almost subsonic, he used hand loads that were in the 700 fps range, and you could almost see the bullet in flight. But, at 10, I put the rounds in the black, all 7. That's all it took. That's what I'm after in a weapon. I give it to someone, and they can put rounds in the black, the entire magazine, under duress, and the rounds stop the bad guy. That's all I ask.

You may want to try a Sprinfield XD, they make it in a .45 GAP, .40, and 9mm. Now I am a 1911 guy to the bone, but my company at this point wont allow cocked and locked :(. I tried Glock and they are OK, but the Sprinfield is the best of both worlds, feels better, and even has the 1911 grip safety. I am thinking of getting a Para LDA though, as I was told that would be OK.

[N. A. Corbier]

They make Springfield XDs in anything but .45? Heh. Added to the list of things to play with.

[DMS 525]

I am not too crazy about 9mm handguns. I've seen where they are weak at stopping someone. They are pretty good as a submachinegun round, but as a pistol round, they miss the mark. I did have a 9mm for a while, but i got disenchanted with it, so I went back to carrying my original weapon of choice: a .357 Magnum.
At the risk of sounding like Eugene Tackleberry, a revolver holds only six shots, but in a .357, if you need more than that, you're in some major trouble! One shot will blow a hole in an adversary as big as a basketball, and usually stop them with one shot. With speedloaders and using proper techniques, you can have a revolver reloaded again in under 6 seconds.

Not like I am against autoloaders. I carried a .45 in the Army. And I like all I have read about the .40 S&W round. Nice for one or two shot stops. If I buy another autoloader, it'll be a .40 cal.

But keep in mind: There once was a time I rolled on a call to help a fellow officer in need. When I arrived on the scene, my cute little handgun stayed in it's cute little holster, and the 12 gauge shotgun came out! When I jacked a shell in the chamber, it brought that situation to a sudden stop, and they all scattered for the hills!

[OccamsRazor]

Glock 22 (.40) on duty, Glock 27 (.40) off (no backups allowed :mad: )

As a cop, I also carried the Rem 870 12 gauge, and a Mini-14. For awhile, I carried a friend's DPMS 'KittyKat' for an entry weapon.

[Crinsol]

As a professional forum, I would like to suggest that we keep exagerations and non-fact to a minimum. I realize that this is not my forum.

People typically come to a forum like this to learn, and putting out random garble on a serious question makes us look bad.

So to put things into perspective-the data shows that there is not much difference between 9mm, 40, .357, .45 etc. To say that a 9mm from a submachine gun is more deadly than that same round fired from a handgun is inaccurate. To say that a .357 will blow a hole the size of a basketball is inaccurate.

M = bullet weight in grains
V = bullet speed in feet per second
ft. lbs. energy = M * V^2 / 450400.

For example a 230g .45 at 860 fps is: 230 * 860^2 / 450400 = 378 ft. lbs.
A 185g .45 at 1000 fps is: 185 * 1000^2 / 450400 = 411 ft. lbs.
A 124g 9mm +P at 1200 fps is: 124 * 1200^2 / 450400 = 396 ft. lbs.
A 165g .40 at 1050 fps is: 404 ft. lbs.

This means that most handgun rounds are in the 400 ft. lbs range give or take a few.

I am by no means an ammo expert but simple research can be done.

Handgun choice is all about preference. A .45 out of a Glock, SIG, 1911 is still a .45.

Rant off.

[DMS 525]

Sorry, Crinsol. Just basing my way of looking at it from actual footage and pictures I have seen, that's all. And it was no exaggeration: I saw a photo of a guy who was hit in the chest with a .357 Magnum- the exit wound was in fact close to 20" in circumfrence, which is about the same as that of a basketball. Not a pretty sight.

There is no one good "miracle gun" out there. With so many variables out there, one just never knows what to expect.

I've seen a deer drop dead from one shot from a .22, when another time a .357 didn't stop one right away. You just never know.

[bumpo]

I have my training for armed security, but there is no one local hiring. So I don't have my G security license yet :( .

If I move to a city where I find work doing armed security. I would probably use my Ruger GP-100 loaded with .38 special. I could use my Glock 19, but due to Florida restricting ammo to FMJ 9mm or solid .38. I'm nervous about overpenetration from a FMJ 9mm bullet.

Off duty I carry my G19, or Springfield mil-spec 1911. I B.U.G. a Rossi .38 snubby.

[N. A. Corbier]

I have my training for armed security, but there is no one local hiring. So I don't have my G security license yet :( .

If I move to a city where I find work doing armed security. I would probably use my Ruger GP-100 loaded with .38 special. I could use my Glock 19, but due to Florida restricting ammo to FMJ 9mm or solid .38. I'm nervous about overpenetration from a FMJ 9mm bullet.

Off duty I carry my G19, or Springfield mil-spec 1911. I B.U.G. a Rossi .38 snubby.

Um, I don't seem to remember Florida Administrative Code prohibiting JHP in .38 caliber or 9mm. If there was, then my previous employer's entire company was in violation of FSS (by violating the appropriate FAC), and so was just about every company in the Tampa Bay region.

The only rules I remember was that it must be factory ammunition, may not be full wadcutter, semi-wadcutter, glazier or frang rounds, or reloads. If it was factory "police-type" ammunition, you were good to go.

[bumpo]

The only rules I remember was that it must be factory ammunition, may not be full wadcutter, semi-wadcutter, glazier or frang rounds, or reloads. If it was factory "police-type" ammunition, you were good to go. Hmm... Thats hhat my G license instructor told me.
I'm checking my hard copy of the 493., and it said under 493.6115(6)
"License may carry is a .38 or .357 caliber revolver with .38 factory .38 caliber ammunition only. In addition to any other firearm approved by the department, a Class "C" and Class "MA" licensee who has been issued a Class "G" license may carry a .38 caliber revolver; or a .380 caliber or 9 millimeter semiautomatic pistol; or a .357 caliber revolver with .38 caliber ammunition only. A Class "C" licensee who also holds a Class "D" license, and who has been issued a Class "G" license, may carry a 9 millimeter semiautomatic pistol while preforming security-related services."

Seems my instructor doesn't know what he was talking about. Or the 493 the instructor gave me is out of date. :rolleyes:
Whatever the case Ill know for sure if or when I do G license work.

P.S. Factory doesn't mean FMJ. Thanks for correcting me.

[bumpo]

I was searching more and came across this story.

artical link (http://www.sptimes.com/2005/05/27/State/Florida_security_offi.shtml)

Florida security officers can soon upgrade firepower
Thanks to a Pinellas officer, guards will be able to use semiautomatic handguns.
By ALEX LEARY, Times Staff Writer
Published May 27, 2005

Security officer Will Holcomb has heard them all: keychain cop, flashlight cop, rent-a-cop. He's seen the cartoons of the old-timer in the gatehouse either watching TV or snoozing.
But the realities of his job, he says, are vastly different. While patrolling a subsidized housing complex in Clearwater, Holcomb has encountered men beating their wives, teens shooting heroin in stairwells, car thefts.
A few years ago when he was working at a shopping center in St. Petersburg, a teenager pulled a gun on him.
In times fraught with such risks, Holcomb, 45, wonders why he carries a dinosaur on his hip - a .38-caliber Smith & Wesson revolver with a wood grip.
"There's nothing wrong with the revolver," he says. "Just like there's nothing wrong with a manual transmission. But I drive an automatic."
Now, after Holcomb's intensive lobbying effort, thousands of security officers in Florida, from the guards at supermarkets and jewelry stores to those at interstate rest stops, soon can trade in their revolvers for semiautomatic handguns.
Lawmakers overwhelmingly approved a bill this spring supporting the move and Gov. Jeb Bush signed it into law on Thursday. It goes into effect July 1.
"Since armed security officers face the same threats as public law enforcement officers," Holcomb said, "shouldn't they be allowed modern weapons?"
Critics question whether better firepower is necessary. "The guns are just too fast-acting and in the hands of people who have minimal training," said state Sen. Gwen Margolis, D-Miami Beach, who was one of only two lawmakers to oppose the bill. "It just didn't seem right to me."
Advocates say semiautomatics are more accurate because there is less recoil when a shot is fired and the grip is more ergonomic. The guns can also be reloaded much faster. Continuity is another cited justification. Many security officers enter the field from the military, where they are trained to use semiautomatics, such as a 9mm.
Revolvers, Holcomb said, are "a whole different skill set. Especially the reloading where you have to swing the cylinder out the revolver, eject the casings, put the new ones in, and swing the cylinder back into place and them come back up on target."
Florida has about 100,000 security officers - about twice as many as sworn law enforcement officers - and of those 17,139 are licensed to carry a weapon. Some already have semiautomatics, but they had to apply for a waiver with the state. Holcomb's proposal eliminates the need for waivers.
Any security officer with a Class G license, which allows them to carry a weapon, could use a semiautomatic provided their employer agrees and they go through 28 hours of training.
Though promoted as a way to modernize security outfits, backers also acknowledge the Barney Fife factor. "Modern firearms help raise the image of security officers and their pride in their equipment," read a news release put out by Holcomb trumpeting passage of the bill.
Doug Herbert, manager of Peak Security in Tampa, which employs 12 armed guards, said semiautomatics could be useful as a visual deterrent to criminals wanting to hold up, say, a liquor store or rob a jewelry shop. "If they see a revolver on a guy's hip, they think it's a joke," he said.
But Herbert foresees dangers with upgraded firepower. "If you get a guy who panics real easily, he's liable to empty a clip of 15 rounds rather than (the) six" a revolver holds.
Holcomb responds to criticism with a familiar refrain: "Guns are not evil. People are evil." He added: "I don't look at this as a gun issue. This is an officer safety issue. We already have guns; we're just going to a more modern weapon."
Holcomb, a father of three who lives in Largo, read the state statute 493 that governs security officers, and discovered simply changing a few words was all it took to provide for semiautomatics without a waiver.
So he decided to give it a go. "Half the people I talked to said you're never going to get it done." Holcomb estimates he spent $2,000 to mail and fax information to lawmakers and to host a Web site - www.change493.org He traveled twice to Tallahassee and testified before House committees. In all, he spent about 400 hours on the project.
State Rep. Priscilla Taylor, D-West Palm Beach, and state Sen. Carey Baker, R-Eustis, eventually sponsored the bill.
"There were a lot of hoops to jump through," Holcomb said. "If you're not part of a large consumer group or lobbying organization, it's hard to get the ear of a senator or representative. I was at the right place at the right time."
[Last modified May 27, 2005, 00:39:13]


I got my florida training during May 05, the semiauto law came into effect July 05. That explains why my 493 doesn't say a C possessing a G licence can use a 9mm
"Guns are not evil. People are evil." lol yup,Bob is cool :cool:. Now common Jeb, lemme use my .45!!!

[Echos13]

I was searching more and came across this story.

artical link (http://www.sptimes.com/2005/05/27/State/Florida_security_offi.shtml)

Florida security officers can soon upgrade firepower
Thanks to a Pinellas officer, guards will be able to use semiautomatic handguns.
By ALEX LEARY, Times Staff Writer
Published May 27, 2005

Security officer Will Holcomb has heard them all: keychain cop, flashlight cop, rent-a-cop. He's seen the cartoons of the old-timer in the gatehouse either watching TV or snoozing.
But the realities of his job, he says, are vastly different. While patrolling a subsidized housing complex in Clearwater, Holcomb has encountered men beating their wives, teens shooting heroin in stairwells, car thefts.
A few years ago when he was working at a shopping center in St. Petersburg, a teenager pulled a gun on him.
In times fraught with such risks, Holcomb, 45, wonders why he carries a dinosaur on his hip - a .38-caliber Smith & Wesson revolver with a wood grip.
"There's nothing wrong with the revolver," he says. "Just like there's nothing wrong with a manual transmission. But I drive an automatic."
Now, after Holcomb's intensive lobbying effort, thousands of security officers in Florida, from the guards at supermarkets and jewelry stores to those at interstate rest stops, soon can trade in their revolvers for semiautomatic handguns.
Lawmakers overwhelmingly approved a bill this spring supporting the move and Gov. Jeb Bush signed it into law on Thursday. It goes into effect July 1.
"Since armed security officers face the same threats as public law enforcement officers," Holcomb said, "shouldn't they be allowed modern weapons?"
Critics question whether better firepower is necessary. "The guns are just too fast-acting and in the hands of people who have minimal training," said state Sen. Gwen Margolis, D-Miami Beach, who was one of only two lawmakers to oppose the bill. "It just didn't seem right to me."
Advocates say semiautomatics are more accurate because there is less recoil when a shot is fired and the grip is more ergonomic. The guns can also be reloaded much faster. Continuity is another cited justification. Many security officers enter the field from the military, where they are trained to use semiautomatics, such as a 9mm.
Revolvers, Holcomb said, are "a whole different skill set. Especially the reloading where you have to swing the cylinder out the revolver, eject the casings, put the new ones in, and swing the cylinder back into place and them come back up on target."
Florida has about 100,000 security officers - about twice as many as sworn law enforcement officers - and of those 17,139 are licensed to carry a weapon. Some already have semiautomatics, but they had to apply for a waiver with the state. Holcomb's proposal eliminates the need for waivers.
Any security officer with a Class G license, which allows them to carry a weapon, could use a semiautomatic provided their employer agrees and they go through 28 hours of training.
Though promoted as a way to modernize security outfits, backers also acknowledge the Barney Fife factor. "Modern firearms help raise the image of security officers and their pride in their equipment," read a news release put out by Holcomb trumpeting passage of the bill.
Doug Herbert, manager of Peak Security in Tampa, which employs 12 armed guards, said semiautomatics could be useful as a visual deterrent to criminals wanting to hold up, say, a liquor store or rob a jewelry shop. "If they see a revolver on a guy's hip, they think it's a joke," he said.
But Herbert foresees dangers with upgraded firepower. "If you get a guy who panics real easily, he's liable to empty a clip of 15 rounds rather than (the) six" a revolver holds.
Holcomb responds to criticism with a familiar refrain: "Guns are not evil. People are evil." He added: "I don't look at this as a gun issue. This is an officer safety issue. We already have guns; we're just going to a more modern weapon."
Holcomb, a father of three who lives in Largo, read the state statute 493 that governs security officers, and discovered simply changing a few words was all it took to provide for semiautomatics without a waiver.
So he decided to give it a go. "Half the people I talked to said you're never going to get it done." Holcomb estimates he spent $2,000 to mail and fax information to lawmakers and to host a Web site - www.change493.org He traveled twice to Tallahassee and testified before House committees. In all, he spent about 400 hours on the project.
State Rep. Priscilla Taylor, D-West Palm Beach, and state Sen. Carey Baker, R-Eustis, eventually sponsored the bill.
"There were a lot of hoops to jump through," Holcomb said. "If you're not part of a large consumer group or lobbying organization, it's hard to get the ear of a senator or representative. I was at the right place at the right time."
[Last modified May 27, 2005, 00:39:13]


I got my florida training during May 05, the semiauto law came into effect July 05. That explains why my 493 doesn't say a C possessing a G licence can use a 9mm lol yup,Bob is cool :cool:. Now common Jeb, lemme use my .45!!!

Got my 9mm carry not to shortly there after. Now, if they would just let us carry a .40 or a .45. I have had my eye on a nice glock .40 for a long time.

[Charger]

Wow... I didn't realize Florida was so behind-the-times on this issue... Up here in the PNW, armed security doesn't have any restrictions on weapon type like that... It's up to the Officer's discretion whether they want to carry a revolver or a semiauto... Training is available for both, although most instructors highly recommend against revolvers... And the states don't differentiate between the two with different licenses or anything... Either you're certified to carry, or you're not... I guess I've been taking things for granted up here.. ;)

Be safe guys!

[N. A. Corbier]

As some of you may of read, Florida uses alot of stopgap legislation in the security industry. A security officer is prohibited (I checked) from using force to remove/prevent someone from committing an offense against the property, only crimes against persons. An in-house security officer, of course, may use force to remove/prevent someone from committing an offense against the property.

Florida considers "force" to be any level of force, including verbal. So, you could lose your license and possibly go to jail for assault/battery (FSS 493 made it illegal, so 776 no longer applies) for standing in front of an entrance to bar access to a building where a trespasser is no longer welcome, or having to grab and escort them out of the building. Also, too, does this mean that the guy stealing from the site? You can't touch him. Even if its posted as a felony construction site. If he attacks you, then you may touch him.

I think the police stopped carrying revolvers in the 1970s. So, with a 40 year gap... What else will happen to security in Florida in 40 years, that happened to police 40 years ago?

Take heart, though, Congress is starting to believe that DHS needs to set nationwide standards for unarmed and armed security officers, special police, etc.

[bigdog]

actuaal ive asked the state about tthat and if its a felony u can still detain even if its a construction site

[doughesson]

As a hunter and a security guard,I am more than a little miffed by the crack about"insane hunters".Unless you are a licensed psychiatrist,you shouldn't be deciding if anyone is insane.
Now,around where I am from,hunters are far more reasonable to deal with armed than most people you see driving down the road.You do have a few that don't abide by trespassing signs and get uppity when the game warden braces them about their license or lack thereof but they are few and far between.
If a security guard is having problems bigger than they have training and equipment for,they need to be more concerned with a "tactical retreat" and letting the Fish and Wildlife people,State Police or County Sheriff handle it.Have enough firepower to help survive the encounter but don't expect your guards to fight to the death over someone else's property.Not unless your contract included a resurrection clause to bring them back.



defend against insane hunters. ).

[doughesson]

I've never had trouble with my Ruger GP 100 .357 magnum.Tennessee allows any caliber that the police can carry but most guard companies go with revolvers on grounds that it's easier to load six from someone else's belt if you need it than to strip out a magazine because you carry a Colt and the other guard has a Smith and Wesson.
I even used a 20 Mossberg 500 Camper with an aftermarket stock for my shotgun.The boss laughed when I broke it out at qualifying but when he noticed I was faster back on target,he decided it would be a good idea to try.


Got my 9mm carry not to shortly there after. Now, if they would just let us carry a .40 or a .45. I have had my eye on a nice glock .40 for a long time.

[N. A. Corbier]

As a hunter and a security guard,I am more than a little miffed by the crack about"insane hunters".Unless you are a licensed psychiatrist,you shouldn't be deciding if anyone is insane.
Now,around where I am from,hunters are far more reasonable to deal with armed than most people you see driving down the road.You do have a few that don't abide by trespassing signs and get uppity when the game warden braces them about their license or lack thereof but they are few and far between.
If a security guard is having problems bigger than they have training and equipment for,they need to be more concerned with a "tactical retreat" and letting the Fish and Wildlife people,State Police or County Sheriff handle it.Have enough firepower to help survive the encounter but don't expect your guards to fight to the death over someone else's property.Not unless your contract included a resurrection clause to bring them back.

Not sure where you are, but we had a man kill 6 others in our state over a trespassing incident. They were unarmed. I do, in fact, expect people to "fight to the death," to protect themselves in a rapidly devolving incident. A "tactical retreat" is extremely difficult when dealing with someone who has a scoped rifle and is used to engaging moving targets. Four people tried to run away in Wisconsin. They were shot in the back.

"Insane hunter" is a colloquialism. They may be mentally unstable, for which a trained professional will be able to recongize indicators of mental instability. Of course, not all states give this training, nor do security guards believe they need it. The police didn't think they needed it, till states started passing laws requiring it - the police were having normal interactions with the mentally unstable turn into lethal force incidents regularly in an extremely rapid fashion. Or, they could simply be your run of the mill murderer. In either case, if your sending someone into an enviornment to managed a known factor (everyone else is armed), they should have the tools to defend themselves and dominate any threat.

[jimmyhat]

As a professional forum, I would like to suggest that we keep exagerations and non-fact to a minimum. I realize that this is not my forum.

People typically come to a forum like this to learn, and putting out random garble on a serious question makes us look bad.

So to put things into perspective-the data shows that there is not much difference between 9mm, 40, .357, .45 etc. To say that a 9mm from a submachine gun is more deadly than that same round fired from a handgun is inaccurate. To say that a .357 will blow a hole the size of a basketball is inaccurate.

M = bullet weight in grains
V = bullet speed in feet per second
ft. lbs. energy = M * V^2 / 450400.

For example a 230g .45 at 860 fps is: 230 * 860^2 / 450400 = 378 ft. lbs.
A 185g .45 at 1000 fps is: 185 * 1000^2 / 450400 = 411 ft. lbs.
A 124g 9mm +P at 1200 fps is: 124 * 1200^2 / 450400 = 396 ft. lbs.
A 165g .40 at 1050 fps is: 404 ft. lbs.

This means that most handgun rounds are in the 400 ft. lbs range give or take a few.

I am by no means an ammo expert but simple research can be done.

Handgun choice is all about preference. A .45 out of a Glock, SIG, 1911 is still a .45.

Rant off.

Although I believe Mr. Crinsol is correct about doing the simple research, I believe the formulas listed above may be a little too simple. Those numbers were hatched in a laboratory, the offspring of a shooting bench and the gelatine mold of a human torso. The numbers may be scientifically accurate, but they miss the mark on many levels. No pun intended.

Not shown in those figures are many environmental and human conditions. 100% humidity or below freezing, fatigue, hunger/thirst, heat mirages, layers of clothing worn in temperate climate, body armor, and an enemy who thinks nothing of hiding behind an innocent child........I could go on for awhile.

Most importantly, those figures don't calculate confidence. The confidence of a young Trooper having been forced to go to his sidearm, who is tasked with door-kicking his way into a room filled with multiple moving blurrs. There is an immeasurable level of confidence knowing you can single or 2-tap one target, drop that target, and move on to the next threat. For the sake of argument, maybe that confidence is just a false sense of security, but it's still security. And it may buy you that fraction of a second that counts the most. I said this earlier, the 45 drops bad guys, and I meant it.

Recently, Soldiers from the 101st Airborne preparing for an upcoming Iraq deployment submitted a formal request to the Army for a replacement of their current-issue M-9 Beretta's (9 mm) for the older Colt model 45. This would require a huge logistical undertaking, so the request was not submitted or received lightly. The Soldiers that made this request were often facing their 2nd and 3rd tours overseas. They know what works, and they know what they need. This wasn't some hair brain scheme hatched up by a private who read the latest 9 mm vs. 45 debate in Guns&Ammo. These are battle tested Troops with battle proven methods. Fortunately, their Commander knew enough to listen to the Troops, and not some desk-jockey who just did the simple research.

I'm not so naieve to believe that private security folks face the same day to day threat as our Uniformed Service members. However, no one should prepare for their shift by going with the cheaper weapon, and HOPING not to get into a firefight. Hope is not a method. The old, time-tested wisdom: It's better to properly prepare for battle, and never face it, than to face the battle unprepared.

[Bill Warnock]

Jimmyhat, some of our soldiers asking for .45s were caught up in a political vortex relating back to the freeing of an Army two star general in Italy.
Enjoyed reading these responses. A lot of thought went into them. Professionalism at its finest.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[SecurityJamesUSA]

As an SPO (Special Police Officer) in Washington DC I carried a 38. City rules, all Special Police Officers have to carry a 38. Revolver.

As a SPO in Maryland I carried a Glock 19

When I was doing Private Force Protection Security in the Middle East we carried M9 Berettas + 3 mags, Select Fire M4?s some with m203 grenade launchers, SAW?s (squad automatic weapons) with 200 round belts, and we manned ?gun pods? with M60?s and 50 cals.

[mallpopo]

pop gun with a note that comes out of the barrel and says "bang"

[N. A. Corbier]

pop gun with a note that comes out of the barrel and says "bang"

You need to upgrade to at least a cap gun, or we're going to have to take your weapon away.

[Mr. Security]

You need to upgrade to at least a cap gun, or we're going to have to take your weapon away.

That's hilarious. I love it :D

[Taser]

Just look at a .45 cartridge. Then look at a 9mm cartridge. The difference is pretty substantial. The standard FMJ rounds you buy for a 9mm are 115 gr. The standard FMJ rounds you buy for a .45 are 230 gr. That's twice the weight. Let's get real here. A .45 is going to hit harder and leave a bigger hole. It's like the difference between being stabbed by a pocket knife and a broadsword.

[davis002]

Just look at a .45 cartridge. Then look at a 9mm cartridge. The difference is pretty substantial. The standard FMJ rounds you buy for a 9mm are 115 gr. The standard FMJ rounds you buy for a .45 are 230 gr. That's twice the weight. Let's get real here. A .45 is going to hit harder and leave a bigger hole. It's like the difference between being stabbed by a pocket knife and a broadsword.

.45 cartridges with standard FMJ also have a stronger chance of "pass-through". I hope you don't work in any heavily populated areas, because when you discharge a .45 it won't be stopping for awhile.

With that said, I can kill you just as easily with a pen knife than I can kill you with a broadsword.

Remember, a .45 and 9mm kill just the same. They both leave holes in suspects, even though one may be bigger than the other.

[N. A. Corbier]

I'm leaning towards a list approach. Purchasing S&W 9mm, as most of the people around here are certified with "9mm semiautomatic," and the state requires you use as an employee whatever the certification says. Some are qualified with "Semiautomatic Pistol," which means they can carry anything. Others, which gives me a slight hope, are qualified with "M4A3 Rifle," and "5.56mm NATO Semi-Automatic Rifle." I'd rather have an employee qualified with the 5.56 NATO, since Colt M4A3s are EXPENSIVE, and I like Bushmaster anyway.

But, the list would authorize most major brands, such as Glock, Sig (Someone has to be able to afford Sig Pro), Colt, Kimber, S&W, Walther, etc, with specific rules, such as DAO mode only, or DECOCKER ONLY.

Still have to play with "which is liablity conscious," and which is "This will get you killed."

[Taser]

.45 cartridges with standard FMJ also have a stronger chance of "pass-through". I hope you don't work in any heavily populated areas, because when you discharge a .45 it won't be stopping for awhile.

With that said, I can kill you just as easily with a pen knife than I can kill you with a broadsword.

Remember, a .45 and 9mm kill just the same. They both leave holes in suspects, even though one may be bigger than the other.
I don't use a FMJ cartridge. Really my goal was to emphasize the rather large difference between the .45 and 9mm.

And yes, the .45 and 9mm do both leave holes, and I wouldn't want to be shot by either one of them, but in my opinion, it makes sense to me anyway, that the one that leaves the bigger hole is going to have the most effective stopping power. Especially at twice the bullet weight...

And maybe this is just an example of what someone else said earlier about the psychological affect having a .45 has on the shooter. In other words, I'm so confident in the .45 ACP that it gives me the peace of mind and comfort than when worse comes to worse I have some of the most solid stopping power out there.

And about the pen knife being as effective as the broad sword, I wouldn't bet on it. If you have to get close enough to kill me with a pen knife, I'm gonna go down fighting, that's for sure. :p

[jakeslife]

I hear ya. My company has one Glock 22 and the rest are Taurus .357's with .38S. We have to leave them at the office whil not at work, so that cuts down on liability.

One of our weapons, during a firearms certification, ejected the whole chamber while the officer was speed reloading.

Cost and liability is a huge thing for private companies. Our company is run by an attorney, which makes it even more painful. We are not allowed to tell soemone to "stop" (which has been used in false arrest cases), which conflicts with our training with firearms in saying "Stop or I'll shoot." In fact, state firearms training says that if they have MMO (Motive-Means-Opportunity) to harm you, you are justified in pulling on them. Company policy is that the person must have the weapon aimed at you, they must be verbal about their intentions, and you must first try to actively retreat before even pulling your firearm.

[OccamsRazor]

Company policy is that the person must have the weapon aimed at you, they must be verbal about their intentions, and you must first try to actively retreat before even pulling your firearm.

Good Lord, how ridiculous. As for the leaving your weapon at work, that wouldn't be "IC" that you work for, would it?

[N. A. Corbier]

I hear ya. My company has one Glock 22 and the rest are Taurus .357's with .38S. We have to leave them at the office whil not at work, so that cuts down on liability.

One of our weapons, during a firearms certification, ejected the whole chamber while the officer was speed reloading.

Cost and liability is a huge thing for private companies. Our company is run by an attorney, which makes it even more painful. We are not allowed to tell soemone to "stop" (which has been used in false arrest cases), which conflicts with our training with firearms in saying "Stop or I'll shoot." In fact, state firearms training says that if they have MMO (Motive-Means-Opportunity) to harm you, you are justified in pulling on them. Company policy is that the person must have the weapon aimed at you, they must be verbal about their intentions, and you must first try to actively retreat before even pulling your firearm.

The hell? The first time an officer is shot by a suspect, the company is going to lose its shirt. Unless your contracts are actually written so that the guard is not authorized to engage in conversations. I mean confrontations. (There are no officers in contracts, there are merely guards. Officer carries liability in itself.)

If the person already has their weapon aimed at you, you must actively retreat because your going to die anyway. Its too late. However, this sounds like a method to keep him from being sued for "excessive force," because pointing a firearm at someone who isn't an "immediate danger to life" is aggarvated assualt in most states. The Police are privalaged in that they may use this level of force. Citizens are not.

Wheel Guns are so old that the patterns of liability are fully established. What's the Glock 22 for? The owner?

[jakeslife]

IC? No.

The only reason our company is even armed is because that is what keeps most of our patrol and alarm response clients. If the company was not "armed" it would go to a different outfit, even though I am one of three armed officers, out of 16 altogether.

Our company is very afraid of liability, yet runs itself in circles so much that it gets blinded by it. For example, we did OC training months ago, the use of force policy signed by the owner and HR, and we got our face full of DefTec. The legal department authorized it and sent it back. The policy stated that after a subject has been sprayed, we are to restrain him and perform decon if safe to do so. Restrain? No, no, that's arresting, we can't have that. And now all we have is the memory of snot dripping down our face and our eyes being on fire.

There is also an unsaid policy at work that if you even pull your gun on anyone, you are fired. It's a liability for them. When we are hired, trained (you know, four hours of watching videos), and armed, we are explicitely told that the company accepts no liability for our actions, even when on duty in company vehicles. This conflicts with them seeing liability in restraints.

[jakeslife]

Oh, I know. Combined with the fact that you are not permitted to carry a round in the chamber, doubles your chances of being shot. But our company is a, "My name is Officer So and So of {insert company name here} and I represent the owner of this property. You are trespassing and I must request you leave."

Safety is one of my big things. I've been pretty much railroaded off the Safety Committee because they were more focused on prodiving the on site officers with flashlights that read "Safety is a bright idea" and other such incentives for reporting wet floors that could cause accidents, and instituting a stretch and flex program to reduce the number of shift call offs. I was one who spoke up about vehicle safety (after I t-boned a van who ran a red light in front of me and I couldn't stop...no airbag deployment, even at 40mph), radio communications (current policy states that if we request police, the dispatched not call until we request again, used to intimidate the subject into leaving--also the fact that one dispatcher must man the comm system for patrol, a dozen ons ite guards in the area, field supervisors, and play secretary with the phones all night), equipment, uniform functionality, etc.

[N. A. Corbier]

IC? No.

The only reason our company is even armed is because that is what keeps most of our patrol and alarm response clients. If the company was not "armed" it would go to a different outfit, even though I am one of three armed officers, out of 16 altogether.

Our company is very afraid of liability, yet runs itself in circles so much that it gets blinded by it. For example, we did OC training months ago, the use of force policy signed by the owner and HR, and we got our face full of DefTec. The legal department authorized it and sent it back. The policy stated that after a subject has been sprayed, we are to restrain him and perform decon if safe to do so. Restrain? No, no, that's arresting, we can't have that. And now all we have is the memory of snot dripping down our face and our eyes being on fire.

There is also an unsaid policy at work that if you even pull your gun on anyone, you are fired. It's a liability for them. When we are hired, trained (you know, four hours of watching videos), and armed, we are explicitely told that the company accepts no liability for our actions, even when on duty in company vehicles. This conflicts with them seeing liability in restraints.

This lawyer is amusing. First off, you are an agent of that company. They cannot disavow liability for your actions, for your actions are in their steed. Vicarious Liability applies to the actions of the employee performing their duties. They can argue that "that wasn't his duties," but he better have FAST paper shredders, because his training manuals and all sundry materials will be subpoeaed.

This sounds like someone who is trying to beat the big three in the liability fear game. His insurance carrier was probably told that your unarmed, then a gun policy was added on. The "unloaded chamber" is an old mainstay from the 1960s, which means his insurance carrier probably gives him a discount on that. His insurance carrier may not even understand the guard industry.

The "Safety Committee" is pandering to the insurance company. "Safety is a bright idea?" Yeah, definately the insurance company. Probably free from them, as well. Stretching and stuff? That's classic "worker safety" straight from State Farm Casualty and Life.

It sounds like this lawyer has no idea how to run a security company, and instead is trying to minimize his loss and maximize his profit through traditional means. Pleasing his insurer. Using "tried and true" liability management concepts such as unloaded chambers, wheel guns, etc.

If he would bother to read the industry trade journals and insurance briefings on the security industry, he would notice in bold letters that they make specific policies to cover the things his insurer tell him aren't covered, such as intentional use of force when doing your job, theft on property, etc.

He may of gotten the city account by being the lowest bidder, or by dazzling them with a proposal.

As I have said, again and again, if you are up front with your insurer, you will have higher premiums, but they will back you. They know the risks your taking, they choose to insure you, and insure you they will.

[sssfjet]

New guy here. I carry the new XD Tactical in 45 cal. That's 14 rounds of 45. I carry it in the Blackhawk Serpa CQC holster.

[Mr. Security]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Super-Soaker-Squirt-Gun-Basic-Fun-Keychain-Key-Chain_W0QQitemZ6620020219QQcategoryZ3628QQrdZ1QQcm dZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

[SgtUSMC8541]

My company generally requires the use of Glock 9mm. In the state of CT each officer must qualify on the specific weapon they are going to carry. It is registered down to the serial number. One of the reason we use Glock’s is that right now, Glock is offering the LEO/Military discount to security officers who are licensed to carry for work. Since the officers must own the firearm themselves this makes it easier on them with the lower cost and many former LEO’s already own Glocks.

We tend to stay away from S&W due to the magazine safety. Never liked that.

Anyway, here an overview of the Connecticut State Use of Force, which many CT companies use for their own policies.

USE OF FORCE POLICY/ FORCE CONTINUUM

1.PURPOSE AND SCOPE: To establish guidelines outlining the statutory use of physical or deadly physical force.

2.GENERAL: The use of physical force or deadly physical force must meet the test of reasonableness. Each officer must be intimately familiar with those sections of the Connecticut General Statutes concerned with the use of force. (CGS 53a)

3.DEFINITIONS:

a.Serious Physical Injury: Physical injury which creates a substantial risk of death, or which causes serious disfigurement or serious impairment of health, or loss or serious impairment of the function of any body organ.

b.Use of force: The use of a dangerous instrument; or the use of actual physical force or violence, or superior physical strength against a victim.

c.Deadly Physical Force: Physical force which can be reasonably expected to cause death or serious physical injury.

d.Dangerous Instrument: Any instrument, article or substance which, under the circumstances in which it is used or attempted or threatened to be used, is capable of causing death or serious physical injury, and includes a (motor vehicle).

e.Reasonable Belief that a Person Committed an Offense: A reasonable belief that a person has committed an offense means a reasonable belief in the facts and circumstances, which if true, would in law constitute an offense.

4.POLICY: Officers should be aware of the seriousness of the offense for which the person is being detained and will use the utmost discretion in determining the necessity for using physical force.

a.Use of Warning: Before employing deadly physical force, the officer will, when feasible, issue a clear verbal warning unless such warning endangers the officer or innocent persons.

b.Use of Deadly Force: An officer is justified in using deadly physical force upon another person only when:

1)He reasonably believes that such force is necessary to defend himself or a third person from the use or imminent use of deadly physical force.

2)To affect an arrest or prevent the escape from custody of a person/suspect who the officer has probable cause to believe, has committed an act involving the inflicting or threatened infliction of serious physical injury, and if feasible, the officer has given a verbal warning of his intent to use deadly physical force.

c.Rendering Medical Assistance: In all instances when officers use force, and the recipient of the force makes a claim of injury, or if there is visible physical injury, the appropriate medical attention will be provided. All injuries resulting or claimed to be caused by the use of force will be documented in the officers report.

d.Use of Force Reports: In any situation where an officer uses force at or above level 3 of the Use of Force Continuum, a Use of Force Report will be filed prior to the end of tour.

5.USE OF FORCE CONTINUUM:

a.Officers will be aware of the Use of Force Continuum and will employ the continuum in those instances when force must be deployed.

b.When force must be deployed, officers will employ the level of force needed to overcome the resistance. Officers need not work through the use of force continuum from the lowest level to the necessary level of force to control the situation.

c.USE OF FORCE CONTINUUM

1.Officers Presence in Uniform
2.Verbal Commands
Verbal Communications
Non-Verbal Communications
3.Passive Control
Pressure point tactics
Pain and compliance holds
Escort techniques
4.Oleoresin Capsicum (OC) product
5.Empty Hand Techniques
Stunning Techniques
6.Intermediate Force
Baton or other impact weapon
7.Lethal/deadly force

Reference: Connecticut General statues 53a-17 thru 53a-23

[ycaso77]

Whatever semiautomatic handgun you purchase and/or own, insure it has a decocking lever if you chamber a round to facilitate an immediate first shot. This allows the cocked hammer to be safely lowered into the safety position without touching the hammer. Further, make sure it has a firing pin lock that provides positive safety with the hammer in either the cocked or decocked position. If the weapon is dropped or otherwise struck with a degree of force, the firing pin cannot strike the primer causing an unintended discharge of the handgun.
I know we have moved beyond the Colt Model 1911A1. In special situations, we were allowed to holster the 1911A1 in the Cocked and Locked mode. There were occasions when the weapon was dropped on concrete with a subsequent discharge. That problem when away when Air Force adopted the S&W .38 Combat Masterpiece. The modern double action revolver has a rebound slide and a hammer block. My two cents!
Enjoy the day,
Bill

I fondly remember the ole Model 15 with USAF issue ball-peen ammo. We used to tell the new kids if the suspect has a heavy coat, its easier to run up and hit them over the head with the butt. Generally on weapons I'm an advocate of department issue weapons. You can control and mandate ammo, training, and maintenance. Easier on possible liability cases as you have a strict firearms use of force and arming policy. And double action only with a decocking lever as you suggest- a heavy trigger so you know you have to pull it and not just sneeze on it. And before I even thought of issuing a weapon to anyone, a background check and psych eval followed by a 3 month unarmed period for well qualified personnel to observe the new hire for potential problems.