Plagarism or Industrial Espionage?

[N. A. Corbier]

I have a few questions about releasing internal company documents to the internet, as well as attempting to sanitize them by removing company logos.

First, a little background. One of our new members, scops8273, is posting numerous links to his Yahoo! Groups group, "Security Resource Network." Having browsed their files section, I made an interesting discovery:

Most of the files have been lifted off Securitas sites. Including Securitas Post Orders, client internal accident reports, and training materials.

What do we consider this, when you take something from your employer, remove their logo, and save it as a Word Document? Especially when you are not adept enough to conceal the truth author's identity, especially on corporate versions of Microsoft Office where the information is stored in the "Properties" file.

Anyway, the results of my cursory evaluation, by file:

1. LP 4 - Report Writing.doc
Properties Listing:
Title: SIXTH FEDERAL RESERVE DISTRICT
Author: Federal Reserve Bank

2. SITE TRAINING ASSESSMENT RECORD.doc
Properties Listing:
Author: Pinkerton
Company: Securitas

3. TRAINING TRACKING SHEET.doc
Properties Listing:
Author: KEITH CARNAHAN (Who is this person?)

4. EMERGENCY PLAN DEVELOPMENT.doc
Properties Listing:
Author: Keith Carnahan
Title: Burns Emergency Plan

5. TRAFFIC ACCIDENT REPORT.doc
Properties Listing:
Author: Keith Carahan

References:
Cliffs Communities

6. Patrolling Parking Lots Garages.doc
SQL Database: C:\WINDOWS\Desktop\Burns April 19\Merged Fields.doc
Numerous references to Securitas Supervisor, Securitas, etc.

I think I'm done here.

[SgtUSMC8541]

Why can't it be both?

[IB107]

if i felt evil.... i would say one propose that maybe some one should call such said companies, for i know there are legal laws that state at least in california and in utah, that those docs are not to be reviled to anyone but the client and or contract company, unless request to be released to the public is athourized by a judge, as far as i know, those docs being on the net is illegal as it compromises client information with is a vunerability to the property owners. but thats my .02

[aka Bull]

With permission of the company - obviously no problem.

Without, likely a violation of company confidentiality at a minimum.

[scops8273]

Considering that these companies no longer exist and the information on these documents can and have proved useful, no harm or no laws have been broken. Most of the forms used by Securitas I have created over time. So in a sense I own the rights to those forms. Post orders are a bit different. Burns Security no longer exists and Securitas uses another style of post orders which is a computer based template which is a different form from what we used before. This group has amazed me in some of the views you all have about the security industry as a whole. It is no wonder that the security industry has no real professionalism or even a glimmer of optimism. This is truly amazing. I have helped allot of people. There are allot of best practices of security companies that we can all benefit from and you have some better ideas just let me know. I am always looking for ways to provide added value service to my client and improve the industry by any mean possible. Thanks guys.

Jeff
scops8273@yahoo.com

[SgtUSMC8541]

Considering that these companies no longer exist and the information on these documents can and have proved useful, no harm or no laws have been broken. Most of the forms used by Securitas I have created over time. So in a sense I own the rights to those forms. Post orders are a bit different. Burns Security no longer exists and Securitas uses another style of post orders which is a computer based template which is a different form from what we used before. This group has amazed me in some of the views you all have about the security industry as a whole. It is no wonder that the security industry has no real professionalism or even a glimmer of optimism. This is truly amazing. I have helped allot of people. There are allot of best practices of security companies that we can all benefit from and you have some better ideas just let me know. I am always looking for ways to provide added value service to my client and improve the industry by any mean possible. Thanks guys.

Jeff
scops8273@yahoo.com

Jeff,
I disagree with you. You say “we” and our industry has “no real professionalism or even a glimmer of optimism.” Yet here we have you posting information and forms that may or may not be from now defunct companies. One of the members of this forum came forward and asked our opinion on something that could really impact the opinion people have of our industry and gave his reason for his beliefs. Plagiarism or industrial espionage is a major problem. You now have your chance to rebut his thought process. That sounds rather professional and optimistic if you ask me .

[IB107]

Jeff,
I disagree with you. You say “we” and our industry has “no real professionalism or even a glimmer of optimism.” Yet here we have you posting information and forms that may or may not be from now defunct companies. One of the members of this forum came forward and asked our opinion on something that could really impact the opinion people have of our industry and gave his reason for his beliefs. Plagiarism or industrial espionage is a major problem. You now have your chance to rebut his thought process. That sounds rather professional and optimistic if you ask me .


I concur, because i do know pinkerton operates under that name out here, and the same for burns :P they have not gone to "securitas" yet... not fully any way they are still in transition..

But even so, up to seven years after a company is "Defunction, in some states it is against the law to post "legal paperwork", which that is because it
is paper work that was used by the "companies", and therefore is still their property, so therefore even if you did "invent the format", when you decided to allow the company to put "their" logo on it, it became their own.

now i do have some forms that i made back in 2003, for when i decide to launch myself a company, if i ever do, that are rather nice looking, ill have to look for the floppy and maybe share them with you, as the have my "fictional/future company name and logo on em your free to use em in anyway you would chose"... since i dont have a 3.5 floppy on this pc, ill have to go down to the local libary to access that disk, and hopefully the data hasnt gotten destroyed...

[scops8273]

Well most of the forms were created by me when I was supervisor at a gated community; we had little contact with our branch office, so we were autonomous most of the time. So you may see some reference to the Cliffs Communities because that is where the form was first used, that particular form I have shared the format with several large sites with approximately the same patrol format. They were able to change the locations and use the form because it served their purpose and made the job easier. The post order I believe are a best practices format that can be used anywhere Burns security had a great format for post orders. The training modules seem to have best practices of multiple companies and sharing the ideas contained in those documents has been a life saver for me and others. Particularly the report writing, I had 83 of my incident reports and DARs taken to court and not one report was disputed. Using these processes really has helped my officers become better report writers. The client was greatly appreciative as well. I have added some things or taken out non essential information. But as you say, make your own judgments. Use it or don't that’s what it comes down to. I created these forms from scratch, using some references from best practices found at other agencies because at that particular time we had no support from our office.

I just see allot of negativity in this group. The more I read the more stressed and depressing it seems. I’ve talked with allot of officers and allot of them have the same feelings it is just amazing. We got to learn to let some things go. We can never achieve anything as long as the majority of the industry feels the way it seems in this group. Again that is my opinion on the overall aspect of the group and the industry. We have been tasked by Securitas to lead the industry in what ever means necessary. I create these forms and produce the best practices from multiple companies. If it works why not use it and adapt it to the program? Plagiarism or industrial espionage is a little extreme.

My two cents anyway. Have a good day everyone!!!!!



Jeff,
I disagree with you. You say “we” and our industry has “no real professionalism or even a glimmer of optimism.” Yet here we have you posting information and forms that may or may not be from now defunct companies. One of the members of this forum came forward and asked our opinion on something that could really impact the opinion people have of our industry and gave his reason for his beliefs. Plagiarism or industrial espionage is a major problem. You now have your chance to rebut his thought process. That sounds rather professional and optimistic if you ask me .

[scops8273]

That would be great. I love looking at the best practices form officers and other companies. Thanks.


I concur, because i do know pinkerton operates under that name out here, and the same for burns :P they have not gone to "securitas" yet... not fully any way they are still in transition..

But even so, up to seven years after a company is "Defunction, in some states it is against the law to post "legal paperwork", which that is because it
is paper work that was used by the "companies", and therefore is still their property, so therefore even if you did "invent the format", when you decided to allow the company to put "their" logo on it, it became their own.

now i do have some forms that i made back in 2003, for when i decide to launch myself a company, if i ever do, that are rather nice looking, ill have to look for the floppy and maybe share them with you, as the have my "fictional/future company name and logo on em your free to use em in anyway you would chose"... since i dont have a 3.5 floppy on this pc, ill have to go down to the local libary to access that disk, and hopefully the data hasnt gotten destroyed...

[IB107]

Well most of the forms were created by me when I was supervisor at a gated community; we had little contact with our branch office, so we were autonomous most of the time. So you may see some reference to the Cliffs Communities because that is where the form was first used, that particular form I have shared the format with several large sites with approximately the same patrol format. They were able to change the locations and use the form because it served their purpose and made the job easier. The post order I believe are a best practices format that can be used anywhere Burns security had a great format for post orders. The training modules seem to have best practices of multiple companies and sharing the ideas contained in those documents has been a life saver for me and others. Particularly the report writing, I had 83 of my incident reports and DARs taken to court and not one report was disputed. Using these processes really has helped my officers become better report writers. The client was greatly appreciative as well. I have added some things or taken out non essential information. But as you say, make your own judgments. Use it or don't that’s what it comes down to. I created these forms from scratch, using some references from best practices found at other agencies because at that particular time we had no support from our office.

I just see allot of negativity in this group. The more I read the more stressed and depressing it seems. I’ve talked with allot of officers and allot of them have the same feelings it is just amazing. We got to learn to let some things go. We can never achieve anything as long as the majority of the industry feels the way it seems in this group. Again that is my opinion on the overall aspect of the group and the industry. We have been tasked by Securitas to lead the industry in what ever means necessary. I create these forms and produce the best practices from multiple companies. If it works why not use it and adapt it to the program? Plagiarism or industrial espionage is a little extreme.

My two cents anyway. Have a good day everyone!!!!!



Okay nothing wrong with your opinions but im pretty optimistic, ive just worked for a company that was more or less "warm bodies is all that matters"
i dont know if you have ever worked for a company like that, but if you havent youll then gain the eyes of gloom if thats what you want to call it...

But now with my new company although im required to purchase everything i use uniforms,duty belts, rent of radios, non-lethal weps(etc) although we are a small company, and work some of the most dangerous accounts in the area,
i really enjoy what i do, i appercaite life more, i enjoy my job, my current company is ran like a "small pd" we even have a "substation" lol... if you dont believe me, ill ask my boss if its okay to take a pic of it, and if so ill post it on the internet :P

[SgtUSMC8541]

Well most of the forms were created by me when I was supervisor at a gated community; we had little contact with our branch office, so we were autonomous most of the time. So you may see some reference to the Cliffs Communities because that is where the form was first used, that particular form I have shared the format with several large sites with approximately the same patrol format. They were able to change the locations and use the form because it served their purpose and made the job easier. The post order I believe are a best practices format that can be used anywhere Burns security had a great format for post orders. The training modules seem to have best practices of multiple companies and sharing the ideas contained in those documents has been a life saver for me and others. Particularly the report writing, I had 83 of my incident reports and DARs taken to court and not one report was disputed. Using these processes really has helped my officers become better report writers. The client was greatly appreciative as well. I have added some things or taken out non essential information. But as you say, make your own judgments. Use it or don't that’s what it comes down to. I created these forms from scratch, using some references from best practices found at other agencies because at that particular time we had no support from our office.

I just see allot of negativity in this group. The more I read the more stressed and depressing it seems. I’ve talked with allot of officers and allot of them have the same feelings it is just amazing. We got to learn to let some things go. We can never achieve anything as long as the majority of the industry feels the way it seems in this group. Again that is my opinion on the overall aspect of the group and the industry. We have been tasked by Securitas to lead the industry in what ever means necessary. I create these forms and produce the best practices from multiple companies. If it works why not use it and adapt it to the program? Plagiarism or industrial espionage is a little extreme.

My two cents anyway. Have a good day everyone!!!!!


Now that response was much better than your first.

That being said, I have looked through your some of your files....and some of them are quite good. I do like the time sheet.

And to address something you posted earlier….. I think we do need to talk about the negative side to our industry. Do we need to concentrate on it? No. We do need to acknowledge it as well as the positive sides. If we ignore it then we will be able to do nothing to correct it and improve our image.

[scops8273]

Yes I have been there. Working for a company called American Security is that way with most of its site. The biggest local competition, but certainly not the best to work for. I think working for a small company can be better than a large corporate company. Securitas use to empower their employs, but now that’s not the case. When I worked as a patrolman for a number of years we were small but growing. We had to buy everything as well. Thanks! Talk to you later!


Okay nothing wrong with your opinions but im pretty optimistic, ive just worked for a company that was more or less "warm bodies is all that matters"
i dont know if you have ever worked for a company like that, but if you havent youll then gain the eyes of gloom if thats what you want to call it...

But now with my new company although im required to purchase everything i use uniforms,duty belts, rent of radios, non-lethal weps(etc) although we are a small company, and work some of the most dangerous accounts in the area,
i really enjoy what i do, i appercaite life more, i enjoy my job, my current company is ran like a "small pd" we even have a "substation" lol... if you dont believe me, ill ask my boss if its okay to take a pic of it, and if so ill post it on the internet :P

[davis002]

Considering that these companies no longer exist and the information on these documents can and have proved useful, no harm or no laws have been broken. Most of the forms used by Securitas I have created over time. So in a sense I own the rights to those forms. Post orders are a bit different. Burns Security no longer exists and Securitas uses another style of post orders which is a computer based template which is a different form from what we used before. This group has amazed me in some of the views you all have about the security industry as a whole. It is no wonder that the security industry has no real professionalism or even a glimmer of optimism. This is truly amazing. I have helped allot of people. There are allot of best practices of security companies that we can all benefit from and you have some better ideas just let me know. I am always looking for ways to provide added value service to my client and improve the industry by any mean possible. Thanks guys.

Jeff
scops8273@yahoo.com

1) Burns and Pinkerton were bought out by Securitas. Everything that was once owned by them, is now owned by Securitas.

2) If you created those forms for Securitas, then guess what... they belong to Securitas.

3) You had no complaints about this group until NA brought up the legality of the documents. So your response is merely a defensive reaction with you trying to save face.

I'm not trying to open up a heated debate, but you yourself have to recgonize that your actions might not exactly be legal. If Securitas Corporate in Chicago were to find out, what would they say? If they might kick up some dust, perhaps you should tweak your forms to simply cover your backside.

[scops8273]

Look you guys go ahead and stew in here with your man of the action thing. Grumble about how bad things are in the security industry and who can do who. Wow! Some of you brats just need to let things go! I really don't need to explain anything to anybody. What ever. I thought this might be a good group, but it's nothing but a collection of cry babies, “gloom and doom”, “oh my God things totally suck, somebody needs to do something but its no use”, on and on. Any positive change suggested and you guys go off on some deep end into the abyss. Sorry I even clicked onto the group, you guys are to too depressing and stressful to have any meaningful conversations. I really think this group should be quarantined, clean this place up for God sake, you guys don't need to infect the rest of the industry because things are bad enough without this dark cloud. So, you guys and a wonderful, zippady-do-da-day, and we will talk to you later. Make sure you post this around.

And you junior can take your threats at the risk of being somewhat unprofessional and stick them in your ass!!! By the way they are closed Monday.


Tootles!



1) Burns and Pinkerton were bought out by Securitas. Everything that was once owned by them, is now owned by Securitas.

2) If you created those forms for Securitas, then guess what... they belong to Securitas.

3) You had no complaints about this group until we called you out. So your response is merely a defensive reaction with you trying to save face.

I honestly wonder what securitas corporate in chicago would have to say? Do we want to do that, no... but if you give us a reason to, we might as well.

[Bill Warnock]

Look you guys go ahead and stew in here with your man of the action thing. Grumble about how bad things are in the security industry and who can do who. Wow! Some of you brats just need to let things go! I really don't need to explain anything to anybody. What ever. I thought this might be a good group, but it's nothing but a collection of cry babies, “gloom and doom”, “oh my God things totally suck, somebody needs to do something but its no use”, on and on. Any positive change suggested and you guys go off on some deep end into the abyss. Sorry I even clicked onto the group, you guys are to too depressing and stressful to have any meaningful conversations. I really think this group should be quarantined, clean this place up for God sake, you guys don't need to infect the rest of the industry because things are bad enough without this dark cloud. So, you guys and a wonderful, zippady-do-da-day, and we will talk to you later. Make sure you post this around.

And you junior can take your threats at the risk of being somewhat unprofessional and stick them in your ass!!! By the way they are closed Monday.


Tootles!
Scops8273:
Nathan was just trying to do you a favor and keep you out of legal trouble. You may have taken Intellectual properties from them without their written consent. You may be subject to criminal sanctions which could mean jail time plus a hefty fine. What you have worked so hard to acquire may suddenly taken from you not to mention your freedom.
Those of us who may be tempted to use the information by scops8273, would be will advised not to do so. The hole only deepens.
Nathan, thank you for putting all of us on notice.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Mr. Security]

Look you guys go ahead and stew in here with your man of the action thing. Grumble about how bad things are in the security industry and who can do who. Wow! Some of you brats just need to let things go! I really don't need to explain anything to anybody. What ever. I thought this might be a good group, but it's nothing but a collection of cry babies, “gloom and doom”, “oh my God things totally suck, somebody needs to do something but its no use”, on and on. Any positive change suggested and you guys go off on some deep end into the abyss. Sorry I even clicked onto the group, you guys are to too depressing and stressful to have any meaningful conversations. I really think this group should be quarantined, clean this place up for God sake, you guys don't need to infect the rest of the industry because things are bad enough without this dark cloud. So, you guys and a wonderful, zippady-do-da-day, and we will talk to you later. Make sure you post this around.

Tootles!

Name calling hardly harmonizes with your philosophy of being "positive." Granted, you may be feeling frustrated over some of the posts that have been made. Nevertheless, there are plenty of security industry watch groups that have published the same concerns that we have about large contract security companies. I have worked in the security industry since 1983 and have witnessed the decline of security services as contract security replaced in-house security. If you really mean what you say about having a positive influence on changing the security industry for the better, you can do the most good by returning to Securitas or some other large contract security company, and use your managerial authority and experience to resolve the problems found within such companies. Refusing to acknowledge legitimate complaints coupled with a "just think positive" mentality isn't going to get the job done.

[davis002]

Look you guys go ahead and stew in here with your man of the action thing. Grumble about how bad things are in the security industry and who can do who. Wow! Some of you brats just need to let things go! I really don't need to explain anything to anybody. What ever. I thought this might be a good group, but it's nothing but a collection of cry babies, “gloom and doom”, “oh my God things totally suck, somebody needs to do something but its no use”, on and on. Any positive change suggested and you guys go off on some deep end into the abyss. Sorry I even clicked onto the group, you guys are to too depressing and stressful to have any meaningful conversations. I really think this group should be quarantined, clean this place up for God sake, you guys don't need to infect the rest of the industry because things are bad enough without this dark cloud. So, you guys and a wonderful, zippady-do-da-day, and we will talk to you later. Make sure you post this around.

And you junior can take your threats at the risk of being somewhat unprofessional and stick them in your ass!!! By the way they are closed Monday.


Tootles!

This guy is an operations manager for Securitas... ok, fine... and people wonder why I said in another thread that Securitas was the worst company I ever worked for. lol... If this is an example of his professionalism, then Securitas is about as good as it will get for him. No hard feelings, enjoy your career Mr. Jeff Crump of Easely, SC.

[IB107]

Look you guys go ahead and stew in here with your man of the action thing. Grumble about how bad things are in the security industry and who can do who. Wow! Some of you brats just need to let things go! I really don't need to explain anything to anybody. What ever. I thought this might be a good group, but it's nothing but a collection of cry babies, “gloom and doom”, “oh my God things totally suck, somebody needs to do something but its no use”, on and on. Any positive change suggested and you guys go off on some deep end into the abyss. Sorry I even clicked onto the group, you guys are to too depressing and stressful to have any meaningful conversations. I really think this group should be quarantined, clean this place up for God sake, you guys don't need to infect the rest of the industry because things are bad enough without this dark cloud. So, you guys and a wonderful, zippady-do-da-day, and we will talk to you later. Make sure you post this around.

And you junior can take your threats at the risk of being somewhat unprofessional and stick them in your ass!!! By the way they are closed Monday.


Tootles!


Well first i would like to point out this is a "GOOD" group, and we do take kindly to positive ideas about positive change so as long it does not borderline what may are may not be legal, i dont know how it is in other states but in utah any felony or misdermeanor (except traffic tickets), will revoke your security officer license. and jeff it seems you have a very negative attitude,
first some of those docs "tradmarks" do not say jeff on them, there fore they are stolen, if they were copywrighted by you the would have your name listed on them, and the second point i would like to point out is if you did work in the industry for 16 years i think you would, understand some of the views we have, i dont know but what it seems to me, is that you are out looking for revenge on securitas/pinkerton/burns, by posting the docs they may use..
and may still use, and may continue to use, which causes a "small problem", and lastly in one of your posts your said you had 86 cases taken to court, and the info in them was never disputed. i have to beg to differ i think they may be some hidden truth to this, alought i have less time in security than you in my entire time in the industry i have never had any have to go to court, also why did those 86 people go to court ? it seems to me some one may have been forced to retire and our quit/fired.. and wants to sink some heat in the group4securitas (or what ever they call them selves now)

[IB107]

so please sir if you cant be positive like you say we are not, in my opinion, i feel you should lighten up on the reigns or leave.. i have nothing against you except you call us cry babies please clarify stated the post with links, you call us negative i can and will post abunch of links, if you want of us actually talking about positive sides of changing the industry....

[aka Bull]

I don't see the problem with this group that you point out Jeff. What I see is a fit of anger over a question put forth about the legailty of using documents attributed to another company.

As to your statements that you created those documents - let me say that they still may be the property of the company you were with when you created them - dependent upon the law and any contractual agreements you may have signed - if you created those documents on company time, with company equipment, or with the express purpose of providing them for the company.

I worked in the software industry as a web/database integrator for a couple of years and by contractual agreement ANYTHING I created, whether on company time or my own, their computer systems or my own, was the property of the company (a major international corporation) unless I received a waiver from the company giving me sole ownership to the item created.

I have created documents for the hospital I work for now for their use, which makes my work a little better and easier. I would not take those documents for my own use without the understanding/agreement of the hospital first - to avoid any possible claim or appearance that I took hospital property unlawfully.

Sorry you see this group as such a negative one. Hopefully you'll find a group you consider to be open, positive, and friendly without it asking to many hard questions.

Good day to you sir.

[N. A. Corbier]

I don't see the problem with this group that you point out Jeff. What I see is a fit of anger over a question put forth about the legailty of using documents attributed to another company.

As to your statements that you created those documents - let me say that they still may be the property of the company you were with when you created them - dependent upon the law and any contractual agreements you may have signed - if you created those documents on company time, with company equipment, or with the express purpose of providing them for the company.

I worked in the software industry as a web/database integrator for a couple of years and by contractual agreement ANYTHING I created, whether on company time or my own, their computer systems or my own, was the property of the company (a major international corporation) unless I received a waiver from the company giving me sole ownership to the item created.

I have created documents for the hospital I work for now for their use, which makes my work a little better and easier. I would not take those documents for my own use without the understanding/agreement of the hospital first - to avoid any possible claim or appearance that I took hospital property unlawfully.

Sorry you see this group as such a negative one. Hopefully you'll find a group you consider to be open, positive, and friendly without it asking to many hard questions.

Good day to you sir.

aka Bull, you've done software work. Maybe even open source. Are you familiar with the term "source code taint?" You know, where you view proprietary source, and you unintentionally put the intellectual property behind that source into your open source contribution - killing the project and starting a damned SCO vs. IBM?

This is how I see looking at those documents. Securitas is very litigious. Imagine if they took a page from SCO and started suing companies who have membership on that Yahoo! Group if they determine that their own processes are tainted.

[aka Bull]

aka Bull, you've done software work. Maybe even open source. Are you familiar with the term "source code taint?" You know, where you view proprietary source, and you unintentionally put the intellectual property behind that source into your open source contribution - killing the project and starting a damned SCO vs. IBM?

This is how I see looking at those documents. Securitas is very litigious. Imagine if they took a page from SCO and started suing companies who have membership on that Yahoo! Group if they determine that their own processes are tainted.

Exactly N.A.! The last thing in the world I would have ever wanted to suffer through was having the internal investigation that would have followed such a HUGE screwup as to have proprietary code end up in any project not sanctioned by the company.

Currently Securitas is the company that holds the contract to support our in-house security department at my hospital. Imagine how it would look to their managers if I suddenly turned up with a printed out copy of one of their documents (since other than their timesheets, they use our documentation). Oh the questions.

I will gladly provide examples of stuff we do - as I offered once in a post on another thread - but I would have obtained my Director's approval before doing so.

I like my job, my reputation, and being on the outside of the bars.