Why isn't there more discussion in this sub-forum?

[Tom_Saxon]

This is a fascinating aspect of private security and personally one of my favorites. My company simply calls these VIP details, as in VIP Protection details.

My experience has been that even the best paying details protecting an actual executive pays far less and is less 'interesting' than a moonlighting VIP detail for exotic dancers doing private parties. The parties actually require less planning and manpower, and the girls will give you an equal proportion of what they make. So if there are 3 girls at $1,000 apiece, the $3000 total is split 4 ways. $750 each for them and $750 for you and whatever you are paying your driver/helpers comes from that. You make the rules and the dancers abide by them like soldiers unlike many executives who seem to think the shine of being an executive somehow makes them bullet proof. Like, "Your just security, I don't have to listen to you."

It is funny to physically force someone you are protecting away from a threat, like literally pretty much dragging them away, one guy on each arm, lift, carry, shove them into the car or safe room. Dancers you don't have to do that. Ever. They say the red word or you say the red word and they will pretty much almost knock you over trying to get out of there. With them it is more a matter of getting them to make a controlled and protected exit.

There are some fun stories from this. Being surrounded by half-naked beautiful flirty women and getting paid very well for it vs working with a tie and a suit and maybe getting some free coffee and a donut but getting paid pretty well for it.

Someone has to have something they would like to share/talk about on the subject of VIP Protection. Lets hear it!

[ScottFree]

Tom,
the simple fact of it is that the first rule of fight club is that you dont talk about fight club....

I would venture to say that covers most of it.

[Tom_Saxon]

Tom,
the simple fact of it is that the first rule of fight club is that you dont talk about fight club....

I would venture to say that covers most of it.

Well there is the near absolute anonymity of the internet, and there is the sub-forum to be made use of....

[ptbeast]

I went to EP training with a guy whose business plan what pretty much what you just described. He bought a limo and worked with high end strippers for private parties and special events. Apparently he did very well with it.

I would guess that Scott is correct, this is a pretty tight lipped community. To some degree, that is understandable, as everybody and their brother thinks that they are qualified to do EP work. That said, sharing what we know with one another can only help us improve the quality of the services that we provide and/or our bottom line.

I think that careful sharing in a forum like this has value. Though I too would say that discretion is required.

Just a few random thoughts on the subject,

Dave

[FireControlman]

The only caution I would have in this area, is that fact that strippers who do parties often engage in sexual acts for money, and please, I don't want to go back and forth on this issue with anyone. If "your" girls don't engage in sexual acts for money, good for you.

I would not want to get caught up in a "sting" and be implicated in their dirty business, driver/EP duty or not, you may still be implicated in knowing this activity was taking place; now, you are an accomplice.

This has happened, in one instance, a LASD deputy was running around with escort/dancers who were in fact engaging in sexual acts, granted he may have been dirty and this may have been his operation all together; nonetheless, he went down.

[CameraMan]

Tom,
the simple fact of it is that the first rule of fight club is that you dont talk about fight club....

You, know, I've always wondered. What is the second rule of fight club?

[Tom_Saxon]

I went to EP training with a guy whose business plan what pretty much what you just described. He bought a limo and worked with high end strippers for private parties and special events. Apparently he did very well with it.

I would guess that Scott is correct, this is a pretty tight lipped community. To some degree, that is understandable, as everybody and their brother thinks that they are qualified to do EP work. That said, sharing what we know with one another can only help us improve the quality of the services that we provide and/or our bottom line.

I think that careful sharing in a forum like this has value. Though I too would say that discretion is required.

Just a few random thoughts on the subject,

Dave

I can understand, despite how simple it would seem to figure out, you don't want everyone knowing whhat general procedures are.

[Tom_Saxon]

The only caution I would have in this area, is that fact that strippers who do parties often engage in sexual acts for money, and please, I don't want to go back and forth on this issue with anyone. If "your" girls don't engage in sexual acts for money, good for you.

I would not want to get caught up in a "sting" and be implicated in their dirty business, driver/EP duty or not, you may still be implicated in knowing this activity was taking place; now, you are an accomplice.

This has happened, in one instance, a LASD deputy was running around with escort/dancers who were in fact engaging in sexual acts, granted he may have been dirty and this may have been his operation all together; nonetheless, he went down.

Don't get me wrong, as for myself and some of my associates, I don't think we mind making an extra buck doing this type of duty as you posted.

I think you are absolutely right in your warnings. They aren't "my girls", they are their own girls and our clients. They want nothing to do with acts that would be defined as 'sexual', though sometimes things do come fairly close to the line and that is where you warn someone off- even if she doesn't seem to mind what they are doing. That is a big part of it, she doesn't have to warn them off or act like she doesn't like it, that is our job. To keep things safe and legal. Almost all of the time, everyone gets that and respects it.

I couldn't imagine just driving a girl to a residence and waiting outside. Gotta go in with her and stay within arms reach of her. There has to be a whole pre-established set of procedures for everything. Sometimes you walk in the door and just know things are not good, and make the decision right then and there to call it off. And she has to agree to respect and defer to your judgement in everything concerning her safety. One of us always goes in first, followed by the girl(s), followed by at least one other guard. The girl doesn't go in until we signal them to go in. Its a good system a good gig, and a real blast.

[jtwestern]

Tom,

Escorting party girls is not EP, not even close to it. You are doing what is known as "body guarding" pure and simple. I wouldn't be using this as my claim to fame as real EP/PSD companies don't need party protectors, they need professionals.

Here's an example: What happens if one of the clients doesn't pay? Are you going to step in and ensure payment? Are you going toe to toe with a guy who wants sex? Are you sure your girls aren't doing illegal acts, using drugs, etc?

I will bet that you are expected to act in some fashion to ensure that payment is made and to look the other way when needed, or assist as "tough meat in the background".

[N. A. Corbier]

Well there is the near absolute anonymity of the internet, and there is the sub-forum to be made use of....

Please don't think things like this. This forum logs IPs regularly. It has already been widely known that I routinely look up IPs to see where in the world someone is posting from, or to detect people using proxies. No one is anonymous on the internet by default, it takes true effort.

[ScottFree]

You, know, I've always wondered. What is the second rule of fight club?

Hit the other guy before he hits you.... :p

Tom i wasnt trying to be a wiseguy, far from it. I wanted to tell you that even for such posts that can seem "low key" i dont share procedures with ANYONE as a rule.

I am willing to discuss concepts, or ideas as to how to solve a specific situation, but i can tell you this, when you are assigned to provide EP for a high value client, your charges safety, and yours in turn, can rest upon a single fact you inadvertantly disclose.

I would say the job you are talking about can have its "fun" moments and probably offers glamour and excitement, but i can also say that glamour and excitement has no place in EP.

[Jedi]

Another component contributing to the lack of participation in this sub-forum is the nature, experience, and resources of those involved in EP. Most involved in this field have their own information networks developed while they worked in the LE or .mil world. If they want to discuss an idea, scenario, challenge, or concept they will differ to people who have knowledge and experience that they have personally vetted, not a group of people with unknown experience who can type out a message on an Internet forum.

[Tom_Saxon]

Tom,

Escorting party girls is not EP, not even close to it. You are doing what is known as "body guarding" pure and simple. I wouldn't be using this as my claim to fame as real EP/PSD companies don't need party protectors, they need professionals.

I wouldn't use it as a claim to fame either, I would however use it as something fun to talk about in an EP forum that is other wise almost absolutely empty, and when talking in-depth about actual EP procedures isn't constructive. I find it interesting that you would exclude protecting 'party girls' from the realm of VIP Protection.

The difference between 'body guarding' and EP Protection is an interesting topic (in my opinion) and is something that is entirely appropriate and constructive to talk about in a forum of security professionals.

I started doing EP Protection and got into 'escorting party girls' as a side gig through a friend who works as a bouncer at a strip club- this friend was approached by his co-workers (dancers) who offered him the opportunity to provide them protection at private parties. He called me because he knows I do EP work and thought my experience and training could help with what he would be doing So I jumped on the opportunity.
BTW my company DOES NOT do this kind of work, it is a side gig I do with a friend and occasionally bring someone from my actual job with me as a helper.



Here's an example: What happens if one of the clients doesn't pay? Are you going to step in and ensure payment? Payment is upfront and non-refundable, there is a contract, and if any terms of the contract are broken, the girls leave with no refund. The terms of the contract are essentially up-front payment and what kinds of interaction with the girls are unacceptable. MOST f the money made during these gigs come in the form of tips anyways.



Are you going toe to toe with a guy who wants sex?

Most of the guys want sex. The point isn't what to do with them, it is what to do with the girl. Things are not in terms of how much a certain guy wants sex, it is to what degree the girl is threatened. There are very specific limits to things, a line, and once that is crossed, party over. The girl is threatened if a guest tries to perform a sexual act on her or does ANYTHING we specifically tell him not to do.

It is structured, it has to be. We have to know the number of guests etc ahead of time, and I don't mean to a specific head, I mean a general number within 10 people. THAT is part of the contract. The more guests, the more people we have to bring, which increases the upfront cost of the performance.

Again, it is not about going toe to toe with people, it is about the safety of the girl. There are a million ways to neutralize an individual without 'going toe to toe' with them. And it should pretty much never even get that far. For as many ways as there are to neutralize a person with squaring off with them, there are a million ways to defuse a hostile environment. If you tell a guy to step back, don't touch etc. and he ignores you, the word is said (always some code word or phrase) and then pre-established exit procedures are implemented. The code phrase is part of how the situation is defused, like, "Jada needs a little break, so we are going to bring in the bonus dancers, they will blow your mind". At that, the doorman opens the door and the girl is evacuated. We don't raise our voice, we don't stare people down, we do not posture ourselves in a threatening manner. Never had some kind of scenario where we had to remove a girl and everyone in the party goes berserk and attacks us. Never.



Are you sure your girls aren't doing illegal acts, using drugs, etc?

I will bet that you are expected to act in some fashion to ensure that payment is made and to look the other way when needed, or assist as "tough meat in the background".

Nope. One of the primary reasons we are there is to protect the girls from themselves. That means no drugs, no sex. They do not leave our sight. It is not uncommon that a toke from some device or cigar be offered one of our girls, and it is our job to politely refuse for them. Nothing. The deal is they can accept nothing, not even a glass of milk, no objects, nothing. They pee before they get there and we bring bottled water for them. It never gets to the point of us having to tell a girl not to do something during a performance.

Make no mistake, they are there for the MONEY and nothing else. Otherwise I would have absolutely nothing to do with it and if a girl is new to me and doesn't understand and agree to all the rules I want nothing to do with her.

I want to ad to this that allot of these dancers are college girls and single moms, not drug addicted prostitutes. I hear them talk. Unless you are a super-model quality, super high quality call-girl, you simply are NOT going to make as much money turning tricks as you are dancing.

[Tom_Saxon]

Hit the other guy before he hits you.... :p

Tom i wasnt trying to be a wiseguy, far from it. I wanted to tell you that even for such posts that can seem "low key" i dont share procedures with ANYONE as a rule.

I am willing to discuss concepts, or ideas as to how to solve a specific situation, but i can tell you this, when you are assigned to provide EP for a high value client, your charges safety, and yours in turn, can rest upon a single fact you inadvertantly disclose.


Well this makes sense. I wouldn't talk about procedures as concerns high-value clients either. Or would I share any specific information.



I would say the job you are talking about can have its "fun" moments and probably offers glamour and excitement, but i can also say that glamour and excitement has no place in EP.

Is the point here that providing close personal protection for dancers at private parties is nescessarily NOT EP? It is interesting to me that EP is characterized as 'non-glamorous' yet, when a CPP detail dealing in the less wholesome (though entirely legal) side of things comes up, the supposedly 'non-existent' glamour of EP is staunchly protected by rejecting entirely the CPP detail in question from the spectrum of VIP Protection.

Honestly I think there is more glamour in a CPP detail whos primary is an actual executive from an international corporation, than there is in protecting strippers from drunk over stimulated frat boys. But when you apply principles and the professionalism of the former to the situation of the latter, you end up providing a service that is of exponentially greater quality to the client (the dancers).

[Tom_Saxon]

Another component contributing to the lack of participation in this sub-forum is the nature, experience, and resources of those involved in EP. Most involved in this field have their own information networks developed while they worked in the LE or .mil world. If they want to discuss an idea, scenario, challenge, or concept they will differ to people who have knowledge and experience that they have personally vetted, not a group of people with unknown experience who can type out a message on an Internet forum.

That is a good point. To me, these kinds of forums are for venting and general discussion, sometimes leading to talking about things that actually affect the effectiveness of a service, but even then everything is taken with a massive boulder of salt. Experience is one thing, inherent value is another. A good idea is a good idea regardless of who comes up with it. Less experience almost always means less good ideas, but there are always exceptions to the rule and improvements in communications media are a tool ideally suited to making the most of the exceptions.

[jtwestern]

Tom,

They're strippers. Not VIPs. Strippers, and along with that goes crime. While you may think it's "VIP" protection, it's just being a heavy in case the girls don't get paid (enforcer) or if they are asked to provide sex (enforcer). I'm sure there is plenty of drugs being used that you "don't know about". That's the industry. If you want to do that, fine, just don't put it in the same realm as EP.

A good EP is professional and has standards. They won't buy drugs for a client, won't procure sex for a client, won't be a goon for a client, and won't violate the law for a client.
Bodyguards will, and a bodyguard is the lowest rung of the professional security ladder. Go ask.

[Tom_Saxon]

Tom,

They're strippers. Not VIPs.


There is professionalism and actual pride in the job, and then a 'holier than thou' atttitude which I do not think is productive. People are not VIP's because they were graced by the hand of god with good fortune or because they have a nice title, they are VIPs (in the context of what WE DO), because they are paying us to protect them as VIPs. PERIOD. Example- executive Smith wrecks said corporation and has 1 month left before his resignation takes affect (for which he will receive a nice fat muli-million dollar bonus). Mr. Smith essentially ruined many lives by killing many jobs off. Thus, for that month, his corporation pays for the EP detail to protect him from the people whos lives he has ruined. You take the job none the less. Because you don't care who Mr Smith is or what he has done. You are doing nothing illegal by protecting him and you are not enabling him to do illegal acts nor witnessing him doing any illegal acts. I don't get how Mr Smith is a VIP here and Trixie Trinkets (or whatever) is not. They are paying customers, they are willing to abide by the rules you give them, and they will not break the law in your presence or to you knowledge.



Strippers, and along with that goes crime. While you may think it's "VIP" protection, it's just being a heavy in case the girls don't get paid (enforcer) or if they are asked to provide sex (enforcer). I'm sure there is plenty of drugs being used that you "don't know about". That's the industry. If you want to do that, fine, just don't put it in the same realm as EP.

Did you read my other posts in this thread? The fee is paid upfront, before the girls even enter the premises. The rest of the money (the majority of it) are tips, and those are freely given. No enforcement of it either way. If they are asked to provide sex the answer is no. If it becomes dangerous to the girls we get them out.



A good EP is professional and has standards. They won't buy drugs for a client, won't procure sex for a client, won't be a goon for a client, and won't violate the law for a client.
Bodyguards will, and a bodyguard is the lowest rung of the professional security ladder. Go ask.

I am glad I don't fit into the bodyguard catagory then. :)

Also, would you consider the cpp teams for celebrities to be 'goons' on the lowest rung of the professional security ladder? Despite the fact that they doubtless must do their jobs in a professional way in a large variety of seedy environments? I am sure some are goons and I am sure others are not. In any case, it would not be fair to pin that label on all of them.

And also, if you've read any of my other posts, you'll see that this is just a side gig, not my main job.

I can see this is a pretty controversial topic, and some of you are taking offense at my talking about strippers as primaries in vip protection, so I'll drop it and won't make any new threads in this section as concerns the subject.

[Tom_Saxon]

Gotta change my tune on this one. As Jedi said:



Most involved in this field have their own information networks developed while they worked in the LE or .mil world. If they want to discuss an idea, scenario, challenge, or concept they will differ to people who have knowledge and experience that they have personally vetted, not a group of people with unknown experience who can type out a message on an Internet forum.

I brought this subject up to contacts I have made in this field, people who I trust to keep tight lipped and give solid advice. They said essentially the same thing you guys have been saying. The main point was that the time I spend doing one these gigs I could be doing something that can actually go onto a resume. Also what I risk by even being present around under age drinking and drugs- even if I do not know that these illegal activites are taking place. A hypothetical scenario was given to me: What if you are doing your thing at one these parties, and thinking you are being professional and not thinking you are breaking the law yourself. The police are called on a noise complaint and suddenly there are arrests for underage drinking, drug possesion (on the part of the guests etc). Do you really want to be involved with that? Whhat if the responding officer is someone I work with on other more legit detaiils in my main job? My credibility with them drops about a thousand points and that is a career killer.

Hearing it that way, in person, from someone I trust and respect, makes a huge difference. I am not going to do these gigs anymore and count myself lucky that clients or party guests were never caught doing something illegal in my presence.

I started this thread thinking this might be fun to talk about and it turned into me seeing that I need to take it seriously (in career terms), seek out some advice, and seriously consider if its worth the risk. It definitely is not. I am still relatively new to this field (only a few years in) and hopefully can count this whole experience as rookie mistake that could have turned out really bad but didn't.

Thanks for the warnings and honesty guys.

[Nauticus]

Tom,

They're strippers. Not VIPs. Strippers, and along with that goes crime. While you may think it's "VIP" protection, it's just being a heavy in case the girls don't get paid (enforcer) or if they are asked to provide sex (enforcer). I'm sure there is plenty of drugs being used that you "don't know about". That's the industry. If you want to do that, fine, just don't put it in the same realm as EP.

A good EP is professional and has standards. They won't buy drugs for a client, won't procure sex for a client, won't be a goon for a client, and won't violate the law for a client.
Bodyguards will, and a bodyguard is the lowest rung of the professional security ladder. Go ask.

You are a good poster, but this post is one of the most ridiculous, ignorant, and just plain stupid posts I've read on here.

I've been slowly working toward a role in EP for a while now. It seems very difficult to get into, but I think it would be satisfying in the long run. I'm taking that Maluco EP course here in Vancouver in January, and we'll see where that takes me.

[Execpro_Sequal]

You are a good poster, but this post is one of the most ridiculous, ignorant, and just plain stupid posts I've read on here.

I've been slowly working toward a role in EP for a while now. It seems very difficult to get into, but I think it would be satisfying in the long run. I'm taking that Maluco EP course here in Vancouver in January, and we'll see where that takes me.

First, what exactly was so "plain stupid" in Jwesterns post? If you disagree with Jwestern (or anyone) give constructive criticism and provide your thoughts, it would add much more to the conversation. At times you come off condenscending, this post is a prime example.

Secondly, you shouldn't call someone (or their writing) ignorant, stupid, or ridiculous, especially if it is unprovoked as it is in this case. Jwestern didn't make any attack on you and you should have responded with more maturity - your response was bizarre. It's a bit ironic that you classified Jwesterns writing as ignorant, but your response was compiled with just that - name calling.

Concerning the initial topic, Jwestern was correct.

However, I personally don't think the term Bodyguard is a negative term, but I'm sure a stigma for it exists for some people.

The type of "security" being described by the OP is a very dirty business that no reputable company should be involved with. Strippers and call girls are synonomous with narcotics, prostitution, money laundering, and other illicite activities. Getting in bed with that kind of client is only going to mean trouble for you down the road. If your reputation meant anything to you, you should stay away from this stuff.

Jwestern was correct to describe these bodyguards as "enforcers", because that's what is typically expected of them. You can argue the exception all you want, but I'm going with the old phrase, "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining" - when you are driving strippers or call girls to their gigs, you know fully well what is going down or at the very least what could be expected from their hosts.

Whether or not you are in control of the girls doesn't matter, you aren't in control of the hosts or their guests (as we know these parties have dozens of men at times) and you could very easily be wrapped up in a bad situation, e.i. police serving a warrant on the home for narcotics, guest overdoses, multiple guests get in physical altercations, guests supply your VIP (strippers) with narcotics, domestic issues, ect.

Remember the job of a EP agent is to protect the client, and that comes in many forms, not only physically. There has been many times that I have had to protect a client from their own self-destructive behavior or prevented them from putting themselves in compromising environments.

This kind of security (strippers and call girls) is what I refer to as "goon squads" and their really is no professional aspect to it. Typically they hire goons because of their ability to 1) look intimidating, 2) willingness to ignore illegal activity, 3) openness to "bending" the law themselves.

At times, protection work can fall into a gray area and it's up to yourself to excercise judgment. I have had clients that more or less expected me to act as a goon and those clients had to find security services eslewhere. I had one client that would get drunk and pick fights with the assumption that I would get involved - needless to say our relationship was terminated.

Protecting your client is important, protecting yourself or your company is more important. Remember, we aren't robots, we don't need to aimlessly follow our clients like droids. If your client becomes a liability to your company - drop them. Private EP isn't like the Secret Service or other law enforcement operations, you have no sworn oath or legal obligation to your client other than your contract, if one even exists. If you do make contracts, take the time to add some language regarding zero tolerance to illegal behavior while services are being provided.

Best advice I can give you is that not all business is good business.

[Execpro_Sequal]

I've been slowly working toward a role in EP for a while now. It seems very difficult to get into, but I think it would be satisfying in the long run. I'm taking that Maluco EP course here in Vancouver in January, and we'll see where that takes me.

Just a forewarning, EP isn't that great. I'm big on education and training but I would advise you not to invest much of your own money in this pursuit.

If you really want to do EP find an employer that will pay for the training themselves. If you want real experience, join a police department or the military. A few years as a cop will get you alot further in EP than a training course. Law Enforcement provides continual training and real life experience, no course or training seminar can provide that!

Due to the wars the military has seen a huge push in EP style training and has some really unique programs and opportunities. I'm not sure about the Canadian Army but the US Army CID has a whole school dedicated to protection. You need two years Army experience before you can be eligible to apply for the program but you not only get protection training (and real life experience in hostile environments), but you are an investigator with full arrest powers for military personnel. Your investigations will include every criminal act a typical PD investigates but has other opportunities such as CI and War Crimes. You get boat loads of experience working with federal agencies and international departments.

You do not need a degree to be eligible.

I'm sure Canada probably has something similiar. If you have a Bachelors Degree look into becoming an Officer, employers (especially in security and LE) love the leadership experience.

[Tom_Saxon]

You can argue the exception all you want, but I'm going with the old phrase, "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining" - when you are driving strippers or call girls to their gigs, you know fully well what is going down or at the very least what could be expected from their hosts.

Whether or not you are in control of the girls doesn't matter, you aren't in control of the hosts or their guests (as we know these parties have dozens of men at times) and you could very easily be wrapped up in a bad situation, e.i. police serving a warrant on the home for narcotics, guest overdoses, multiple guests get in physical altercations, guests supply your VIP (strippers) with narcotics, domestic issues, ect.

Remember the job of a EP agent is to protect the client, and that comes in many forms, not only physically. There has been many times that I have had to protect a client from their own self-destructive behavior or prevented them from putting themselves in compromising environments.


I want everyone here to know that while I was doing this kind of security, I did not witness or facilitate any illegal activity. Though I can't speak for anyone else who has done this kind of work, I can say that what I did was an exception to the rule. I made sure the girls were legal and safe. I can't say the same for the guests though, which for me, is the main reason why I will no longer have anything to do with this kind of thing.

[FireControlman]

I want everyone here to know that while I was doing this kind of security, I did not witness or facilitate any illegal activity. Though I can't speak for anyone else who has done this kind of work, I can say that what I did was an exception to the rule. I made sure the girls were legal and safe. I can't say the same for the guests though, which for me, is the main reason why I will no longer have anything to do with this kind of thing.


And no one is or should not be assuming or implying that you would engage or facilitate any such activity. Don't sweat the small stuff. It's just the interwebs.

[FireControlman]

Just a forewarning, EP isn't that great. I'm big on education and training but I would advise you not to invest much of your own money in this pursuit.

If you really want to do EP find an employer that will pay for the training themselves. If you want real experience, join a police department or the military. A few years as a cop will get you alot further in EP than a training course. Law Enforcement provides continual training and real life experience, no course or training seminar can provide that!

Due to the wars the military has seen a huge push in EP style training and has some really unique programs and opportunities. I'm not sure about the Canadian Army but the US Army CID has a whole school dedicated to protection. You need two years Army experience before you can be eligible to apply for the program but you not only get protection training (and real life experience in hostile environments), but you are an investigator with full arrest powers for military personnel. Your investigations will include every criminal act a typical PD investigates but has other opportunities such as CI and War Crimes. You get boat loads of experience working with federal agencies and international departments.

You do not need a degree to be eligible.

I'm sure Canada probably has something similiar. If you have a Bachelors Degree look into becoming an Officer, employers (especially in security and LE) love the leadership experience.

Great post, our Navy Master-at-Arms and other special folks may earn the MA-2009 Protective Service Specialist classification code once they complete the course at Fort Leonardwood, Missouri.

[Nauticus]

Just a forewarning, EP isn't that great. I'm big on education and training but I would advise you not to invest much of your own money in this pursuit.

If you really want to do EP find an employer that will pay for the training themselves. If you want real experience, join a police department or the military. A few years as a cop will get you alot further in EP than a training course. Law Enforcement provides continual training and real life experience, no course or training seminar can provide that!

Due to the wars the military has seen a huge push in EP style training and has some really unique programs and opportunities. I'm not sure about the Canadian Army but the US Army CID has a whole school dedicated to protection. You need two years Army experience before you can be eligible to apply for the program but you not only get protection training (and real life experience in hostile environments), but you are an investigator with full arrest powers for military personnel. Your investigations will include every criminal act a typical PD investigates but has other opportunities such as CI and War Crimes. You get boat loads of experience working with federal agencies and international departments.

You do not need a degree to be eligible.

I'm sure Canada probably has something similiar. If you have a Bachelors Degree look into becoming an Officer, employers (especially in security and LE) love the leadership experience.

Thanks for the reply. I was in the CF full-time, and now I'm in the reserves. In Canada, we do have a program similar to the one that you're talking about, but the selection process is actually very competitive. Not impossible, of course, but competitive.

Perhaps I'll look at continuing a career with a local PD or the military again and see where that takes me, instead of taking an EP course.

Thanks for the reply.

[Execpro_Sequal]

Thanks for the reply. I was in the CF full-time, and now I'm in the reserves. In Canada, we do have a program similar to the one that you're talking about, but the selection process is actually very competitive. Not impossible, of course, but competitive.

Perhaps I'll look at continuing a career with a local PD or the military again and see where that takes me, instead of taking an EP course.

Thanks for the reply.

Not sure of your overall experience but deployments are highly valuable. If you're infantry, you should have lots of opportunities for assignments like convoy security other protection work.

I really haven't been exposed to the Canadian army so I'm not sure what they're doing these days, but I do know that they recently made a push to build a more well trained special operation unit and were recruiting to expand their ranks. I also know they have an Airborne unit which would also be good experience.

Depending on what kind of EP you wanna do, many companies require special operations experience. Others will just take an experienced street cop, all depends on the location and duties.

The training courses out there are great but aren't meant to train entry level people to get into EP. They are more or less refresher courses or courses that train a team of people working together for the first time. There are also lots of courses that specialize in certain aspects of EP, which are typically more advanced.

Most companies want someone experienced in high anxiety situations (combat, LE operations) and will expand on those experiences through further training.

[Nauticus]

Not sure of your overall experience but deployments are highly valuable. If you're infantry, you should have lots of opportunities for assignments like convoy security other protection work.

I really haven't been exposed to the Canadian army so I'm not sure what they're doing these days, but I do know that they recently made a push to build a more well trained special operation unit and were recruiting to expand their ranks. I also know they have an Airborne unit which would also be good experience.

Depending on what kind of EP you wanna do, many companies require special operations experience. Others will just take an experienced street cop, all depends on the location and duties.

The training courses out there are great but aren't meant to train entry level people to get into EP. They are more or less refresher courses or courses that train a team of people working together for the first time. There are also lots of courses that specialize in certain aspects of EP, which are typically more advanced.

Most companies want someone experienced in high anxiety situations (combat, LE operations) and will expand on those experiences through further training.

The role I was in was infantry, and I did just one tour to Afghanistan. Do you have any suggestions as to what sort of EP training is well respected? I'm somewhat familiar with ESI and so forth, but there's Maluco coming here, and there's Diligence Ltd. in Calgary. So many options!

[Execpro_Sequal]

The role I was in was infantry, and I did just one tour to Afghanistan. Do you have any suggestions as to what sort of EP training is well respected? I'm somewhat familiar with ESI and so forth, but there's Maluco coming here, and there's Diligence Ltd. in Calgary. So many options!


I prefer Oatman, many of the new programs out there are modeled after his...pretty good reputation in private EP.

http://www.rloatman.com

Most the guys I know doing high end protection work are either experienced military guys who held some specialty in the service (special forces, special forces medics, CID, translators) or former police officers with SWAT training or experience on protection details for their department. There are also the former federal agents who retired and do EP to supplement their pension.

One big problem about doing EP is finding a company that actually does EP. In my area EP isn't abundant enough to create a constant revenue stream, at least not enough to support a trained team with full time work. The threat level here (PA) isn't that dangerous so there really isn't the need for executives to be surrounding themselves with a dedicated security team.

Like I said, EP work isn't that great. Unless you are an LEO who has real authority, your just a basic security guard. Rarely have I "wisked" away an executive through a lobby or stood next to a politician while they shook hands in a crowd. I'm usually sitting in a car or in an adjacent room next to where my client is doing business. Working armed is difficult because you don't always know exactly where you will be that day so if your carrying you need everything carefully planned to make sure you aren't breaking gun laws (what if client goes to a federal building or school).

If doing EP really interests you, I'd join a PD and get involved with their Dignitary/VIP Protection Team. Most large city and state departments have them and you will protect higher end clients and be able to do with with real authority. Do that, get paid a good wage and take your pension after 20-25 years. Then if you are still interested in doing private sector EP do it on your own and use it to supplement your income. Get a few gigs a month at $75 per hour and keep it all for yourself - sounds alot better than the $15 per hour you'd make working for a security company doing the samething.

I'd get my ASIS certs, CFE/CFA then start my own little consultancy like Curtis.

P.S. I forgot to mention that the majority of the time your clients don't even want to have you there - they were either forced by their legal department/executive leadership (or your company did a slick job selling the need) or hired you due to outside influences and look at you as a hole they're throwing money into.

[mad_malk]

Great post, our Navy Master-at-Arms and other special folks may earn the MA-2009 Protective Service Specialist classification code once they complete the course at Fort Leonardwood, Missouri.

Best of luck to them at fort lost in the woods.

[Tom_Saxon]

And no is or should not be assuming or implying that you would engage or facilitate any such activity. Don't sweat the small stuff. It's just the interwebs.

Well I am a little paranoid because I have posted here from a work pc, my feeling is that someone at work knows that and is now signed onto the forum and is posting here also now.

[Tom_Saxon]

One big problem about doing EP is finding a company that actually does EP. In my area EP isn't abundant enough to create a constant revenue stream, at least not enough to support a trained team with full time work. The threat level here (PA) isn't that dangerous so there really isn't the need for executives to be surrounding themselves with a dedicated security team.

Get a few gigs a month at $75 per hour and keep it all for yourself - sounds alot better than the $15 per hour you'd make working for a security company doing the samething.



I work in the same state and $15.00 for EP is ridiculous. $15.00 is our absolute lowest starting rate for any armed detail. EP goes much higher than that. Also, it should be kept in mind that the same firm will likely have other business going on than EP, so even if that particular revenue stream isn't constant, there is always work. I wouldn't work any armed detail for less than $20.00. Even in PA.

"Getting a few gigs a month for yourself" sounds allot easier than it actually is. If it is that easy, please share how.

Obviously you know what you are doing and your advice is sound. I am just trying to talk about this from a very practical standpoint.

[Execpro_Sequal]

I work in the same state and $15.00 for EP is ridiculous. $15.00 is our absolute lowest starting rate for any armed detail. EP goes much higher than that. Also, it should be kept in mind that the same firm will likely have other business going on than EP, so even if that particular revenue stream isn't constant, there is always work. I wouldn't work any armed detail for less than $20.00. Even in PA.

"Getting a few gigs a month for yourself" sounds allot easier than it actually is. If it is that easy, please share how.

Obviously you know what you are doing and your advice is sound. I am just trying to talk about this from a very practical standpoint.

Keep in mind that my post was directed to Nauticus who was has interest getting into to, not yourself who wants to start his own company. I think my advice to him was pretty accurate.

Armed security beginning at $20 sounds a high, I don't know many contract security guards making $40,000.00 per year. Typically a business is only going to be able to bill a client $75 per hour for EP, your $20 starting salary would really bite into profit margins.

Given your previous posts about being a heavy for strippers, I'm not sure if you and I share the same opinion of what EP is....my company wouldn't even entertain the idea, neither would any other reputable company I know.

So sure, the money from strippers migh tbe hirer, but it's also dirty business that we don't need. BTW, do you declare that $750 split on your taxes?

As far as the getting a few gigs a month comment, it happens. I know lots of former LEO's that do freelance EP or other guys who pick up occassional details. You just need to network and build a good reputation for yourself in your local area.

Just curious, but have you had formal EP training or experience working for reputable clients?

I've seen you want to start your own company but you seem a bit lost about your direction...kind of like you want a piece of everthing.

As far as gaining clients for you business, well...that's the biggest part of business. You need to market yourself and build a reputation.

[Tom_Saxon]

Armed security beginning at $20 sounds a high, I don't know many contract security guards making $40,000.00 per year. Typically a business is only going to be able to bill a client $75 per hour for EP, your $20 starting salary would really bite into profit margins.

Given your previous posts about being a heavy for strippers, I'm not sure if you and I share the same opinion of what EP is....my company wouldn't even entertain the idea, neither would any other reputable company I know.

The company I work for does not do this either, it is something I did on my own with friends.



So sure, the money from strippers migh tbe hirer, but it's also dirty business that we don't need. BTW, do you declare that $750 split on your taxes?


Filed as tip income not reported to my employer.



As far as the getting a few gigs a month comment, it happens. I know lots of former LEO's that do freelance EP or other guys who pick up occassional details. You just need to network and build a good reputation for yourself in your local area.


The question was asked to help the beginer rather than the veteran leo or high profile security professsional with their own established network. Wasn't trying to be a smartass, it is good information for the majority of people who seem to post to these forums.



Just curious, but have you had formal EP training or experience working for reputable clients?


I have already stated that I have. My story- as far as ep goes- is this: already trained by and working for a company that does 100% legit ep details. Literaly protecting corporate executives. Had an opportunity to make some money babysitting dancers so I did that. After reading the reactions on here, decided to talk to some people I trust who I work with at my job and going on their advice am no longer doing the dancer gigs.



I've seen you want to start your own company but you seem a bit lost about your direction...kind of like you want a piece of everthing.


I am definitely not looking at starting a company that baby-sits strippers.



As far as gaining clients for you business, well...that's the biggest part of business. You need to market yourself and build a reputation.

Exactly, which is why I no longer will watch after dancers or even bring it up again.

[Jedi]

Tom,

Besides the training provide by your employer and experience you have gained through them by working details, and the unmentionable dancer escorts, what type of experience do you have that qualifies you for EP work? My intent is not to attack you, but to determine if there is a gap between what is being perceived as necessary for EP work and the reality of it.

What most people fail to understand is that EP work is 99.999% BORING (Speaking of CONUS primarily here). The chances of your detail being involved in a situation where you will need to do anything more than sit at a door, in a car, or in a room are pretty slim. But that 0.001% of the time is when your life experience comes into play. There is a very good reason why retired LEO, .gov and seasoned .mil are the big players in this field... they have decades of experience in going from 0 to 100mph in milliseconds (figuratively). The training received by the current employer is nothing compared to the instinct and muscle memory that has been cultured and nurtured over their careers in the field.

Generally speaking, the person who is ready to start an EP business of their own is the one who has decades of experience prior to starting EP work and at least a decade after getting into EP.

[Tom_Saxon]

Tom,

Besides the training provide by your employer and experience you have gained through them by working details, and the unmentionable dancer escorts, what type of experience do you have that qualifies you for EP work? My intent is not to attack you, but to determine if there is a gap between what is being perceived as necessary for EP work and the reality of it.

What most people fail to understand is that EP work is 99.999% BORING (Speaking of CONUS primarily here). The chances of your detail being involved in a situation where you will need to do anything more than sit at a door, in a car, or in a room are pretty slim. But that 0.001% of the time is when your life experience comes into play. There is a very good reason why retired LEO, .gov and seasoned .mil are the big players in this field... they have decades of experience in going from 0 to 100mph in milliseconds (figuratively). The training received by the current employer is nothing compared to the instinct and muscle memory that has been cultured and nurtured over their careers in the field.

Generally speaking, the person who is ready to start an EP business of their own is the one who has decades of experience prior to starting EP work and at least a decade after getting into EP.

Oh, I do not want to start an EP business. I have made the statement I want to start a security business. With the right people, I would not be against taking on EP detaills, but that definitely is not what I would try to focus on.

My EP experience and training comes purely from my current employer. I am absolutely the least experienced, trained and educated of any of us, and am not afraid to admit that. I am lucky enough to work with highly qualified and experienced people, and learn from them. When I say highly qualified and experienced people I mean veteran civilian and military police, veteran ep professionals etc.

My mind is like a sponge and I love this kind of work (security in general), I am a very fast learner, have excellent instincts and top-notch mentors. Our sites are at least as active as they are dormant, which means allot of experience at proactive security and crisis managment.

The police I work with say the same thing....99% nothing, but that 1% you have to be ready for. Something I am finding out is that the company I work for definitely does not fit into the template of the industry in general. Other than our primary 2 accounts (which require only about 100 people), the company I work for specializes in problems and problem areas. We get the assignment and the premium because we are taking care of something that someone else isn't able to.

Allot of times that ''somone else" is another security company, and I am not talking about vanilla security companys like Allied-Barton either. I am talking about international companies that are generally considered to be premium firms themselves with very high-profile customers. So by the time we get the call the situation is already well into that 1%.

We will even wear their uniforms and work somewhat with their regular crew who are told that we are the 'trouble shooting' team of the same company they work for, when in reality that company is our customer for that assignment.

Anyways, I am no expert in EP, and can only say that I know what I have been trained to do, and that no assignment I have ever been on has gone bad. Our core guys and the teams we work with are top-notch and that has at least as much to do with it as anything else.

5 years in, I am a noob to all of this compared to allot of other guys, but I am good enough at it to lead men who have a ton more experience and training than I do. Training and experience outside the company. And I don't mean training from "Danny D-Dawgs Bodyguard Academy", but training from the military, law enforcement, experience from the same. They trust me, and to me that is golden.

[Nauticus]

Oh, I do not want to start an EP business. I have made the statement I want to start a security business. With the right people, I would not be against taking on EP detaills, but that definitely is not what I would try to focus on.

My EP experience and training comes purely from my current employer. I am absolutely the least experienced, trained and educated of any of us, and am not afraid to admit that. I am lucky enough to work with highly qualified and experienced people, and learn from them. When I say highly qualified and experienced people I mean veteran civilian and military police, veteran ep professionals etc.

My mind is like a sponge and I love this kind of work (security in general), I am a very fast learner, have excellent instincts and top-notch mentors. Our sites are at least as active as they are dormant, which means allot of experience at proactive security and crisis managment.

The police I work with say the same thing....99% nothing, but that 1% you have to be ready for. Something I am finding out is that the company I work for definitely does not fit into the template of the industry in general. Other than our primary 2 accounts (which require only about 100 people), the company I work for specializes in problems and problem areas. We get the assignment and the premium because we are taking care of something that someone else isn't able to.

Allot of times that ''somone else" is another security company, and I am not talking about vanilla security companys like Allied-Barton either. I am talking about international companies that are generally considered to be premium firms themselves with very high-profile customers. So by the time we get the call the situation is already well into that 1%.

We will even wear their uniforms and work somewhat with their regular crew who are told that we are the 'trouble shooting' team of the same company they work for, when in reality that company is our customer for that assignment.

Anyways, I am no expert in EP, and can only say that I know what I have been trained to do, and that no assignment I have ever been on has gone bad. Our core guys and the teams we work with are top-notch and that has at least as much to do with it as anything else.

5 years in, I am a noob to all of this compared to allot of other guys, but I am good enough at it to lead men who have a ton more experience and training than I do. Training and experience outside the company. And I don't mean training from "Danny D-Dawgs Bodyguard Academy", but training from the military, law enforcement, experience from the same. They trust me, and to me that is golden.

I'm curious what company you work for. A company that allegedly fixes other "international company's" mistakes wouldn't have an inexperienced EP professional leading details.

[Execpro_Sequal]

Oh, I do not want to start an EP business. I have made the statement I want to start a security business. With the right people, I would not be against taking on EP detaills, but that definitely is not what I would try to focus on.

My EP experience and training comes purely from my current employer. I am absolutely the least experienced, trained and educated of any of us, and am not afraid to admit that. I am lucky enough to work with highly qualified and experienced people, and learn from them. When I say highly qualified and experienced people I mean veteran civilian and military police, veteran ep professionals etc.

My mind is like a sponge and I love this kind of work (security in general), I am a very fast learner, have excellent instincts and top-notch mentors. Our sites are at least as active as they are dormant, which means allot of experience at proactive security and crisis managment.

The police I work with say the same thing....99% nothing, but that 1% you have to be ready for. Something I am finding out is that the company I work for definitely does not fit into the template of the industry in general. Other than our primary 2 accounts (which require only about 100 people), the company I work for specializes in problems and problem areas. We get the assignment and the premium because we are taking care of something that someone else isn't able to.

Allot of times that ''somone else" is another security company, and I am not talking about vanilla security companys like Allied-Barton either. I am talking about international companies that are generally considered to be premium firms themselves with very high-profile customers. So by the time we get the call the situation is already well into that 1%.

We will even wear their uniforms and work somewhat with their regular crew who are told that we are the 'trouble shooting' team of the same company they work for, when in reality that company is our customer for that assignment.

Anyways, I am no expert in EP, and can only say that I know what I have been trained to do, and that no assignment I have ever been on has gone bad. Our core guys and the teams we work with are top-notch and that has at least as much to do with it as anything else.

5 years in, I am a noob to all of this compared to allot of other guys, but I am good enough at it to lead men who have a ton more experience and training than I do. Training and experience outside the company. And I don't mean training from "Danny D-Dawgs Bodyguard Academy", but training from the military, law enforcement, experience from the same. They trust me, and to me that is golden.

You have two accounts that when combined require 100 people?

In a previous post you mentioned that you did work for the G-20, so I assume you are in the western PA area. I am very familiar with the industry in this region and I personally know, or at least know of all the major players in EP and I'm struggling to find a company that specializes in the services you described, nor do I see those services even being profitable.

Your posts seem unusual, I'm not sure I trust what you say.

As Nauticus stated, why would such a high profile (and secret) company like the one you say you work for put someone who is obviously inexperienced (self-admitted Noobie) and uneducated about protection in charge of such "important" EP details?

Like I said, I know the industry in this region very well, and the style of EP you are explaining simply doesn't exist nor is it necessary.

[Tom_Saxon]

I'm curious what company you work for. A company that allegedly fixes other "international company's" mistakes wouldn't have an inexperienced EP professional leading details.

I didn't say we fix other compannies mistakes, I said we handle things they pay us to handle. Why they want us to handle it instead of handling it themselves depends on the specific situation, but I do not take the attitude that we fix mistakes.

My company puts the best person for the job in that job, period. Being a team leader means weaving many different parts into a whole and planning an assignment out from start to finish. I might not have the cpp experience of some of the guys on my team, but I am better at making all of the parts work together as a whole than all of them.

[Tom_Saxon]

You have two accounts that when combined require 100 people?

Those are conttract security accounts, not 'work-order' or 'detail' accounts. The rest of what we do requires about 20 people and these are the 'special detail' jobs, the ep jobs etc.



In a previous post you mentioned that you did work for the G-20, so I assume you are in the western PA area. I am very familiar with the industry in this region and I personally know, or at least know of all the major players in EP and I'm struggling to find a company that specializes in the services you described, nor do I see those services even being profitable.


That is interesting. We are not a major player in EP, we simply do some EP details. I don't know if these details are profitable for the boss, the company. I know he doesn't take a loss. I know we work with quite a few law firms and this is a major source of work in everything from investigations to ep, to special details.



Your posts seem unusual, I'm not sure I trust what you say.

As Nauticus stated, why would such a high profile (and secret) company like the one you say you work for put someone who is obviously inexperienced (self-admitted Noobie) and uneducated about protection in charge of such "important" EP details?


My company goes on merit first and everything else second. I don't know why they do much of what they do. But I know it works. Isn't that the point?



Like I said, I know the industry in this region very well, and the style of EP you are explaining simply doesn't exist nor is it necessary.

What style of ep am I explaining? Lets say y agency is doing armed security for x corporation. Threat level for executive j. doe of x corporation goes through the roof and x corporation contracts us through y agency to do ep for j.doe. Lets say millions of dollars are at stake in a civil law suit, and we are contracted to do ep for the plaintiff. How is this unusual or unnescessary?

Last but not least, our work is not all local. The work I personally do is local. What you are saying makes sense to the extent that even of the local ep details, I do not get all of them. Compared to the other ep details, I am probably given the relatively easy stuff.

I am wondering if we don't work for the same company and you are just here to basically tell me to stfu. About secrecy and trust, this is the kind of thing my company would do. Post messages from an anonymous person to further conceal its self and its activites and then I notice my ep and special details dry up for no reason.

I should probably stop posting.

[Tom_Saxon]

Concerning the inexperience-

I am a noob relatiive to others on my staff, and maybe to some of you. It doesn't mean I brand new to this. I have been doing it for 5 years. Which is a long time compared to some, and hardly any time compared to others.

[Execpro_Sequal]

Those are conttract security accounts, not 'work-order' or 'detail' accounts. The rest of what we do requires about 20 people and these are the 'special detail' jobs, the ep jobs etc.



That is interesting. We are not a major player in EP, we simply do some EP details. I don't know if these details are profitable for the boss, the company. I know he doesn't take a loss. I know we work with quite a few law firms and this is a major source of work in everything from investigations to ep, to special details.



My company goes on merit first and everything else second. I don't know why they do much of what they do. But I know it works. Isn't that the point?



What style of ep am I explaining? Lets say y agency is doing armed security for x corporation. Threat level for executive j. doe of x corporation goes through the roof and x corporation contracts us through y agency to do ep for j.doe. Lets say millions of dollars are at stake in a civil law suit, and we are contracted to do ep for the plaintiff. How is this unusual or unnescessary?

Last but not least, our work is not all local. The work I personally do is local. What you are saying makes sense to the extent that even of the local ep details, I do not get all of them. Compared to the other ep details, I am probably given the relatively easy stuff.

I am wondering if we don't work for the same company and you are just here to basically tell me to stfu. About secrecy and trust, this is the kind of thing my company would do. Post messages from an anonymous person to further conceal its self and its activites and then I notice my ep and special details dry up for no reason.

I should probably stop posting.

Let me put your worries to rest and assure you that we don't work for the same company.

My company doesn't have "Team Leaders" and none of our managers fit the description you've painted of yourself and experience. All of the people doing EP I work with are personal friends and I'm pretty confident none of them are moonlighting as goons for strippers either.

Very few companies have a full time EP team performing constant protection. Typically work trickles in and isn't usually long term assignments. If there was a company like the one you are describing (high end, armed EP with full time staff), I would know about it.

To be completely blunt, I think everything you have posted is a complete fabrication. I don't believe any of it, nor do I believe in this high speed - low drag security company you say you work for. As I said, I'm very knowledgeable of this regions industry and I'm throwing a BS flag on what you are saying.

Your vague statements about "we handle things they pay us to handle" is pretty odd and raises some questions for me...

[Nauticus]

Let me put your worries to rest and assure you that we don't work for the same company.

My company doesn't have "Team Leaders" and none of our managers fit the description you've painted of yourself and experience. All of the people doing EP I work with are personal friends and I'm pretty confident none of them are moonlighting as goons for strippers either.

Very few companies have a full time EP team performing constant protection. Typically work trickles in and isn't usually long term assignments. If there was a company like the one you are describing (high end, armed EP with full time staff), I would know about it.

To be completely blunt, I think everything you have posted is a complete fabrication. I don't believe any of it, nor do I believe in this high speed - low drag security company you say you work for. As I said, I'm very knowledgeable of this regions industry and I'm throwing a BS flag on what you are saying.

Your vague statements about "we handle things they pay us to handle" is pretty odd and raises some questions for me...

I agree with this. Although I don't DO EP yet, I'm still familiar with the international 'players', and none of them sound like yours.

[Tom_Saxon]

Let me put your worries to rest and assure you that we don't work for the same company.

My company doesn't have "Team Leaders" and none of our managers fit the description you've painted of yourself and experience. All of the people doing EP I work with are personal friends and I'm pretty confident none of them are moonlighting as goons for strippers either.

Very few companies have a full time EP team performing constant protection. Typically work trickles in and isn't usually long term assignments. If there was a company like the one you are describing (high end, armed EP with full time staff), I would know about it.

To be completely blunt, I think everything you have posted is a complete fabrication. I don't believe any of it, nor do I believe in this high speed - low drag security company you say you work for. As I said, I'm very knowledgeable of this regions industry and I'm throwing a BS flag on what you are saying.

Your vague statements about "we handle things they pay us to handle" is pretty odd and raises some questions for me...

The only BS here is that you think you know everything. You present yourself as a 'professional' yet any 'professional' has better things to do with their time than what you are doing here. A professional ignores what is not important and takes a learners attitude towards things they feel are important but do not entirely know or understand. A professional actually evaluates information correctly before coming to conclusions, or stating those conclusions. So far you have misread or misunderstood my posts- I have not stated that we have a full time EP staff, you assumed that. I never worked as a 'goon' for strippers, if you read what I actually posted, you would know that.

I have answered terse questions in a polite and humble manner, have taken a learners attitude in encountering people who say they do things a different way.

You come sniffing around here and smell something that isn't familiar to you and so proceed to make assumptions and half-cocked conclusions. Is that how you conduct yourself on the job?

Yes I am vague, because I am not here to network, I am here to talk openly about the industry and maybe learn something. I do not want people to know where I work because where I work is very political and there is a good chance something I might say could be misconstrued by the people I work for or potential clients.

Are you here to learn also, or does your pride limit your professionalism to the extent that you think you know everything? Just accept the fact that you don't know everything and you don't know as much as you think about the region.

Let me ask you, do you work for yourself or are you given assignments from an agency or company? I am not asking if you are 1099, I am asking if you get the clients yourself. If you do work for an agency, does your employer tell you everything about the company and every assignment? Or is the information given you restricted to what you need to know about your particular assignment?

No team leaders? So are you going to say that there are no team leaders in ep, or that maybe just your company doesn't have them?

Aside from your poor attitude and poor attentiveness/understanding of what I said, there are a few things you have said which raise some BS flags for me as well. But I don't care enough to even call BS. This field is so full of good and bad information (much of it intentional misinformation) that I ignore what is not important to me (the BS) and open my ears and eyes to what might be important. Unless you are going to tell me that information control also has nothing to do with 'real ep' or private investigations, or security in general.

[Tom_Saxon]

I agree with this. Although I don't DO EP yet, I'm still familiar with the international 'players', and none of them sound like yours.

Any security firm that does more than o&r will not sound from the inside anything like they look from the outside. The operations of security companies is proprietary and necessarily secretive. Sometimes that is a good thing, sometimes that is a bad thing. It is a good thing when the people you are protecting against assume some operational condition that reached them through misinformation or disinformation and make a mistake, it is a bad thing when a client hires an ep firm under the assumption of certain operational conditions and things go south and there was no team leader (http://israelivipprotection.com/security-personals/vip-protection-team-leader-training/) to plan everything out in detail and coordinate with local law enforcement....so you have guys sitting in the lobby or out in the car eating a donut who might not even know what happened, and after some spilled coffee and chinese fire drills, someone finally finds out that the primary is dead or abducted, someone realizes to call '911', no one really knows what is going on and actions are reactionary rather than proactive....ya, I think $20.0 an hour is allot to ask for that mess. ;p

[FireControlman]

A change in tactics... I like. :D


I think I'll grab the popcorn and sit back; this thread is getting better.

[Execpro_Sequal]

The only BS here is that you think you know everything. You present yourself as a 'professional' yet any 'professional' has better things to do with their time than what you are doing here. A professional ignores what is not important and takes a learners attitude towards things they feel are important but do not entirely know or understand. A professional actually evaluates information correctly before coming to conclusions, or stating those conclusions. So far you have misread or misunderstood my posts- I have not stated that we have a full time EP staff, you assumed that. I never worked as a 'goon' for strippers, if you read what I actually posted, you would know that.

I have answered terse questions in a polite and humble manner, have taken a learners attitude in encountering people who say they do things a different way.

You come sniffing around here and smell something that isn't familiar to you and so proceed to make assumptions and half-cocked conclusions. Is that how you conduct yourself on the job?

Yes I am vague, because I am not here to network, I am here to talk openly about the industry and maybe learn something. I do not want people to know where I work because where I work is very political and there is a good chance something I might say could be misconstrued by the people I work for or potential clients.

Are you here to learn also, or does your pride limit your professionalism to the extent that you think you know everything? Just accept the fact that you don't know everything and you don't know as much as you think about the region.

Let me ask you, do you work for yourself or are you given assignments from an agency or company? I am not asking if you are 1099, I am asking if you get the clients yourself. If you do work for an agency, does your employer tell you everything about the company and every assignment? Or is the information given you restricted to what you need to know about your particular assignment?

No team leaders? So are you going to say that there are no team leaders in ep, or that maybe just your company doesn't have them?

Aside from your poor attitude and poor attentiveness/understanding of what I said, there are a few things you have said which raise some BS flags for me as well. But I don't care enough to even call BS. This field is so full of good and bad information (much of it intentional misinformation) that I ignore what is not important to me (the BS) and open my ears and eyes to what might be important. Unless you are going to tell me that information control also has nothing to do with 'real ep' or private investigations, or security in general.

How much do you charge for EP per hour?

You state that your "base" is a minimum of $20.00 per hour and you work in teams and you're the "team leader". A team of four would then be earning $80.00 per hour, minimum as you say.

EP in this region only goes for around $75-$100 per hour, and I will be flexible on each end. If we take the high end that means if you were billing the client per man/per hour you'd be billing $400 per hour, which is extremely high. There may be rare cases where this level of protection will be paid for but it would be extremely rare. One simple 8 hour shift would cost the client approximately $3,200.00. There must be some pretty scary threats going on in my backyward that clients are paying this sorta money to be protected from.

It also amazes me that I can work, network, recruit, research, and sale in this very region and not know that this high end EP work is available.

In the words of Chevy Chase, "I wouldn't be more surprised if I woke up tomorrow morning with my head sown to the carpet"....

If there was a company charging this high of rate in my area and working in these conditions (armed teams, taking on high-end local work) I would know about it.

Just so everyone knows, Western PA has a handful of qualified EP providers and the work is slim as it is, our economy just doesn't have the constant need (unlike DC, LA, NYC). Out of those EP providers, I'm familiar with all of them.

I just don't understand how this high paid, high speed low drag operation could be functioning under my nose and I have no idea, nor do I understand how I could be so blind to all these big dollar EP assignments that are being swallowed up by Tom_Saxon.

[Execpro_Sequal]

so you have guys sitting in the lobby or out in the car eating a donut who might not even know what happened, and after some spilled coffee and chinese fire drills, someone finally finds out that the primary is dead or abducted, someone realizes to call '911', no one really knows what is going on and actions are reactionary rather than proactive

ninja alert!!!!!!!!!!

[Jedi]

I can't help it....

Do you work for Ravenwood?

[Execpro_Sequal]

I keep seeing the OP referring to "coordinating with local law enforcement" in his posts...

It's true that anyone doing protection work should be in contact with local law enforcement, but this task is relatively simple and doesn't require a highly skilled "team leaader" to perform the task.

"Coordinating with local law enforcement" is simply done by calling your local police department, explaining to them who you are and why your there. For example I might call the PD and inform them that my client just terminated an employee and he is worried about retaliation. I provide my name, company name, make & model of my vehicle, cell phone number and how many other people I'm working with....9 times outta 10 I'm by myself.

If it's overnight you can ask them to do a patrol of the area, some might stop by and shoot the breeze with you for awhile.

If your going to be there for an extended period of time you could stop in and speak with the Chief personally.

Typically, this "coordination" takes about 3 minutes via telephone.

I did the same thing while doing surveillance investigations.

Myself and the majority of my coworkers usually work independently and we're all able to accomplish this task without the bold leadership of a team leader. Believe it or not, we can even do our own advance work if an assignment alots time, which it very seldom does.

[Nauticus]

I keep seeing the OP referring to "coordinating with local law enforcement" in his posts...

It's true that anyone doing protection work should be in contact with local law enforcement, but this task is relatively simple and doesn't require a highly skilled "team leaader" to perform the task.

"Coordinating with local law enforcement" is simply done by calling your local police department, explaining to them who you are and why your there. For example I might call the PD and inform them that my client just terminated an employee and he is worried about retaliation. I provide my name, company name, make & model of my vehicle, cell phone number and how many other people I'm working with....9 times outta 10 I'm by myself.

If it's overnight you can ask them to do a patrol of the area, some might stop by and shoot the breeze with you for awhile.

If your going to be there for an extended period of time you could stop in and speak with the Chief personally.

Typically, this "coordination" takes about 3 minutes via telephone.

I did the same thing while doing surveillance investigations.

Myself and the majority of my coworkers usually work independently and we're all able to accomplish this task without the bold leadership of a team leader. Believe it or not, we can even do our own advance work if an assignment alots time, which it very seldom does.

Agreed on all points, except when I conduct surveillance investigations, I tell them that I'm there, but I don't tell them why or who I'm observing.

[Execpro_Sequal]

Agreed on all points, except when I conduct surveillance investigations, I tell them that I'm there, but I don't tell them why or who I'm observing.

I would tell them something general if there is no likely potential for violence.

So I usually just say it's an insurance related matter or lawsuit related.

I've actually got burned by letting the police know which I'm following. The guy had a scanner and dispatch read his address through and that there was a PI stationed.

Live and Learn.

[Nauticus]

I would tell them something general if there is no likely potential for violence.

So I usually just say it's an insurance related matter or lawsuit related.

I've actually got burned by letting the police know which I'm following. The guy had a scanner and dispatch read his address through and that there was a PI stationed.

Live and Learn.

Haha That's a shame. I'm lucky that, when I completed my course in PI, the instructor was a 30 year veteran, so he taught us a lot of the mistakes he made, so we wouldn't make them as well. It was very interesting.

[Execpro_Sequal]

Haha That's a shame. I'm lucky that, when I completed my course in PI, the instructor was a 30 year veteran, so he taught us a lot of the mistakes he made, so we wouldn't make them as well. It was very interesting.

I didn't know they had PI courses.

I had some on the job training that was brief and I was on my own.

Surveillance isn't something you can teach from a book, mobile surveillance takes some time to adjust to and learning from your mistakes is the best way...as long as it doesn't screw your client.

If you are starting to do surveillance, the best advice I can give you is learn some good pretexts and don't adopt the attitude that your subjects are always suspicious.

[Execpro_Sequal]

Also to the OP, good luck starting your new company or whatever you decide.

I think you will find a bit more aid if you scale back the language (I don't mean profanity) in your posts, I've read through them and you seem to try and overwhelm people with your experience....most people wont respond to that, especially not when your first post in an EP forum is about bodyguarding strippers.

I'm sure you are involved in EP on some degree and perhaps you have done some interesting things, but I know how this industry works pretty well and I can tell when some one is exaggerating.

Good luck to you.

[jtwestern]

As an LE guy, I have always checked on the stake out cars in my beat. I've never burned them and have always given them their distance, however, I NEED to know who is sitting in my beat and why. You may be interfering in one of my cases, or another active investigation. I can also take care of those "suspicious subject" calls that come in on you.

I use a phone, and never go out on the radio, as do my beat partners. We understand what you need.

ExecPro,

Yes, there are PI schools, at least in CA. There is a mandatory time and education level needed to obtain the PI license here.


OP, you don't work for Jax Desmond, do you?

[Execpro_Sequal]

As an LE guy, I have always checked on the stake out cars in my beat. I've never burned them and have always given them their distance, however, I NEED to know who is sitting in my beat and why. You may be interfering in one of my cases, or another active investigation. I can also take care of those "suspicious subject" calls that come in on you.

I use a phone, and never go out on the radio, as do my beat partners. We understand what you need.

ExecPro,

Yes, there are PI schools, at least in CA. There is a mandatory time and education level needed to obtain the PI license here.


OP, you don't work for Jax Desmond, do you?

Here in PA the license holder must meet certain criteria, a set amount of years in law enforcement, government investigations, or working for a PI company.

However, that doesn't mean you need to hold your own PI license to work as a PI. If a company is licensed it can hire people to work as a PI and register them with the state government and in whatever county the company is licensed.

I didn't have my own PI license, but worked as a PI. I was working under my owners license. You just need to make sure that you are properly registered and have your criminal record checks completed.

The majority of people working for PI firms (at least in this state) aren't actual license holders. There is no mandatory training unless you want to do armed security, which requires PA Act 235 certification for anyone working armed other than LEOs.

I don't know about CA but I know this is common in many other states.

[Nauticus]

Here in PA the license holder must meet certain criteria, a set amount of years in law enforcement, government investigations, or working for a PI company.

However, that doesn't mean you need to hold your own PI license to work as a PI. If a company is licensed it can hire people to work as a PI and register them with the state government and in whatever county the company is licensed.

I didn't have my own PI license, but worked as a PI. I was working under my owners license. You just need to make sure that you are properly registered and have your criminal record checks completed.

The majority of people working for PI firms (at least in this state) aren't actual license holders. There is no mandatory training unless you want to do armed security, which requires PA Act 235 certification for anyone working armed other than LEOs.

I don't know about CA but I know this is common in many other states.

I've been doing PI work for a few years now.

In BC, it's "recommended" that you complete a course that covers several criteria (law, investigation techniques and integrity, interviewing, etc). Then, you have to apply for a PI Under Supervision license (it's an endorsement on a regular security license), and work with a licensed PI for up to 2400 hours, or until he can document that he's comfortable that you know what you are doing.

I've completed 2 courses in PI, one was 3 weeks, and the other was 1 month. That said, I mostly do retail investigations (shrink investigations, loss prevention consulting, workplace drug use, integrity checks, etc).

I'm interested in Executive Protection because I know many of my coworkers are able to offer EP and PI work - similar in preparation, I'm told, but obviously with very different goals.

[Execpro_Sequal]

Is it true that EP agents in Canada can't carry guns?

[Nauticus]

Is it true that EP agents in Canada can't carry guns?

No private citizens are allowed carrying restricted firearms for any reason, except for armoured car security.

That said, it's slowly changing, because last I heard, they will be allowing foreign EP carry firearms for the 2010 Olympic Games (they have to apply for an Authorization to Carry, same as what a BRINKS guard here needs). The floodgates are open, allowing foreigners to carry firearms is just a step away from letting domestic EP carry firearms.

[FireControlman]

ExecPro,

Yes, there are PI schools, at least in CA. There is a mandatory time and education level needed to obtain the PI license here.

Very true, the CA requirement to apply for a PI license is 6,000 hrs of compensated experience (approx 2,000 hrs x 3 yrs) and passing an exam. The education portion is not a requirement; but, rather an avenue to reducing the required hours of experience.

Example:

1) an associates degree in Police Science, Criminal Law or Justice, will reduce the requirement by 1,000 hrs.

2) a law degree or proof of 4 yrs of study in Police Science, Criminal Justice, or Criminal Law will reduce the requirement by two years (2,000 hrs).

[Execpro_Sequal]

I assume every that will have some sort of criteria to obtain a PI license, whether it be be education, experience or a combination of both.

All I was saying is that you don't need to be a license holder to be a PI in most states.

[Tom_Saxon]

How much do you charge for EP per hour?

I have no idea.



You state that your "base" is a minimum of $20.00 per hour and you work in teams and you're the "team leader". A team of four would then be earning $80.00 per hour, minimum as you say.

EP in this region only goes for around $75-$100 per hour, and I will be flexible on each end. If we take the high end that means if you were billing the client per man/per hour you'd be billing $400 per hour, which is extremely high. There may be rare cases where this level of protection will be paid for but it would be extremely rare. One simple 8 hour shift would cost the client approximately $3,200.00. There must be some pretty scary threats going on in my backyward that clients are paying this sorta money to be protected from.


I only know what I get paid. Maybe you need to pay closer attention to your backyward.



It also amazes me that I can work, network, recruit, research, and sale in this very region and not know that this high end EP work is available.

In the words of Chevy Chase, "I wouldn't be more surprised if I woke up tomorrow morning with my head sown to the carpet"....

If there was a company charging this high of rate in my area and working in these conditions (armed teams, taking on high-end local work) I would know about it.

Just so everyone knows, Western PA has a handful of qualified EP providers and the work is slim as it is, our economy just doesn't have the constant need (unlike DC, LA, NYC). Out of those EP providers, I'm familiar with all of them.


List them, if there are only a handful.



I just don't understand how this high paid, high speed low drag operation could be functioning under my nose and I have no idea, nor do I understand how I could be so blind to all these big dollar EP assignments that are being swallowed up by Tom_Saxon.

Maybe if you accepted the fact that you don't know everything you'd be doing better. Your skills as a networker and researcher are here displayed for everyone to see: there has not been a single attempt by you on the forum or in private to contact me about these 'high end' clients, instead you are full of ridicule and spite.

How is this good 'networking'? Lets look at what you are saying and the most obvious conclusions that could be drawn by anyone reading this: "Western PA is a tiny market with no high-end customers, so don't bother even looking here or even thinking about looking here".

[Tom_Saxon]

ninja alert!!!!!!!!!!

Now THAT is what you call professional.

[Tom_Saxon]

I keep seeing the OP referring to "coordinating with local law enforcement" in his posts...

It's true that anyone doing protection work should be in contact with local law enforcement, but this task is relatively simple and doesn't require a highly skilled "team leaader" to perform the task.

"Coordinating with local law enforcement" is simply done by calling your local police department, explaining to them who you are and why your there. For example I might call the PD and inform them that my client just terminated an employee and he is worried about retaliation. I provide my name, company name, make & model of my vehicle, cell phone number and how many other people I'm working with....9 times outta 10 I'm by myself.

If it's overnight you can ask them to do a patrol of the area, some might stop by and shoot the breeze with you for awhile.

If your going to be there for an extended period of time you could stop in and speak with the Chief personally.

Typically, this "coordination" takes about 3 minutes via telephone.

I did the same thing while doing surveillance investigations.

Myself and the majority of my coworkers usually work independently and we're all able to accomplish this task without the bold leadership of a team leader. Believe it or not, we can even do our own advance work if an assignment alots time, which it very seldom does.

So who does this limited amount of coordination? Everyone, anyone? Is it anyone's responsibility in particular?

Law Enforcement is a huge resource if you don't flatter yourself and insult them the whole time, like you are doing here.

I involve the police as much as I can, which normally is as much as they are interested in being involved. It takes longer than 3 minutes to establish a good rapport with someone.

[Tom_Saxon]

Also to the OP, good luck starting your new company or whatever you decide.

I think you will find a bit more aid if you scale back the language (I don't mean profanity) in your posts, I've read through them and you seem to try and overwhelm people with your experience....most people wont respond to that, especially not when your first post in an EP forum is about bodyguarding strippers.

I'm sure you are involved in EP on some degree and perhaps you have done some interesting things, but I know how this industry works pretty well and I can tell when some one is exaggerating.

Good luck to you.

Well thanks. What do you mean by scale back the language? I am really trying to exaggerate in the sense of understatement.

I also don't think my company is that high-speed. We provide pretty much everything for ourselves but bodies, customers, and training. Vehicles, weapons, vests, phones, advance work etc. Prior to an assignment I sit and plan the whole thing out from start to finish and submit it to my boss for approval. He approves it or makes some changes and I redo as much as he has changed. Then I meet with the team and go over the plan. I said I am not that experienced with this, 5 years the same company. How would I know that other companies don't use 'team leaders' or do things the same way? Yes, my base for armed details is $20. an hour and I don't think its enough.

[Tom_Saxon]

OP, you don't work for Jax Desmond, do you?

Nope, not Jax Desmond.

[Execpro_Sequal]

So who does this limited amount of coordination? Everyone, anyone? Is it anyone's responsibility in particular?

Law Enforcement is a huge resource if you don't flatter yourself and insult them the whole time, like you are doing here.

I involve the police as much as I can, which normally is as much as they are interested in being involved. It takes longer than 3 minutes to establish a good rapport with someone.

Anyone working the assignment, believe it or not it does not take any high end training to pick up the telephone and call the police and provide them with basic information.

If I'm working alone (which is typical) I make the call, if I'm working with some one else, one of us will say, "hey, have you talked to the cops, yet?", then one of us will call the police. Not exactly rocket science.

How did I insult law enforcement?

9 time out of 10 you are only speaking to dispatch anyways or speaking with an officer doing administrative tasks, the cops you'd actually be dealing with are out on the road.

[Execpro_Sequal]

Odd how you have no idea how much you charge clients, considering your "team leader" status and how you sit down and plan every assignment.

How can you properly plan something if you don't know your budget?

Have you ever worked in LE or the military?

[FireControlman]

Odd how you have no idea how much you charge clients, considering your "team leader" status and how you sit down and plan every assignment.

How can you properly plan something if you don't know your budget?

Have you ever worked in LE or the military?

Wouldn't it be great if we could all sit or stand around somewhere having a cup of coffee and shoot the sh*t? People tend to level with each other when we come out from behind the computer screen.

I'm on many different discussion forums; I used to enjoy meeting up and putting a face to the board name, shoot some guns, eat some food. Years ago, and I mean like ten years ago, I made the mistake of making snide comments and what not online, then later, unknowing to me, this same individual was at a group event and I had to deal with that awkwardness.

Later, I ended up swallowing my pride and the guy turned out to be one very smart and cool dude, I realized I could learn a lot from him.

--now back to the popcorn--

[Execpro_Sequal]

Wouldn't it be great if we could all sit or stand around somewhere having a cup of coffee and shoot the sh*t? People tend to level with each other when we come out from behind the computer screen.

I'm on many different discussion forums; I used to enjoy meeting up and putting a face to the board name, shoot some guns, eat some food. Years ago, and I mean like ten years ago, I made the mistake of making snide comments and what not online, then later, unknowing to me, this same individual was at a group event and I had to deal with that awkwardness.

Later, I ended up swallowing my pride and the guy turned out to be one very smart and cool dude, I realized I could learn a lot from him.

--now back to the popcorn--

I don't feel my quote that you posted was really snide or out of line.

lol, I really mean it would be difficult to plan an assignment or project if you don't know your budget.

I just found it odd that after working for a company for 5 years and having a leadership role in the company he doesn't know how much the clients pay for his services.

[FireControlman]

I don't feel my quote that you posted was really snide or out of line.

lol, I really mean it would be difficult to plan an assignment or project if you don't know your budget.

I just found it odd that after working for a company for 5 years and having a leadership role in the company he doesn't know how much the clients pay for his services.

I read you, especially since you ask if he had ever been in the military or LE, and I say that because when we (as in at my command) have meetings to plan events or build the way ahead, the budget is always brought up and taken into account. Flying people across the country, lodging, and per diem, can add up real fast.

[Nauticus]

I read you, especially since you ask if he had ever been in the military or LE, and I say that because when we (as in at my command) have meetings to plan events or build the way ahead, the budget is always brought up and taken into account. Flying people across the country, lodging, and per diem, can add up real fast.

Totally true, but this whole thread has pretty much been trying to catch Saxon in a lie, so I'm not sure if it's relevant anymore. :p

[FireControlman]

Totally true, but this whole thread has pretty much been trying to catch Saxon in a lie, so I'm not sure if it's relevant anymore. :p

So true. I LOL'd.

[Tom_Saxon]

Anyone working the assignment, believe it or not it does not take any high end training to pick up the telephone and call the police and provide them with basic information.

If I'm working alone (which is typical) I make the call, if I'm working with some one else, one of us will say, "hey, have you talked to the cops, yet?", then one of us will call the police. Not exactly rocket science.

How did I insult law enforcement?


You didn't insult law enforcement per se. I was talking about your general attitude here, which is and has been insulting.



9 time out of 10 you are only speaking to dispatch anyways or speaking with an officer doing administrative tasks, the cops you'd actually be dealing with are out on the road.

:rolleyes: