What would you do?

[T202]

Here’s the Scenario:

I’m working today and driving from one facility that I check to another. I drive by the gas station that we use to gas up the company vehicle. Well it had just been robbed. Three deputy cars are there and the yellow tape is out. This got me thinking. If I had been gassing up at the time, to what extent would I have gotten involved? Well I know what I would have done but I am curious to know what the rest of you would have done.
If you did take some action, would the company you work for leave you out to dry or back you up on your decision.

[Mr. Security]

Here’s the Scenario:

I’m working today and driving from one facility that I check to another. I drive by the gas station that we use to gas up the company vehicle. Well it had just been robbed. Three deputy cars are there and the yellow tape is out. This got me thinking. If I had been gassing up at the time, to what extent would I have gotten involved? Well I know what I would have done but I am curious to know what the rest of you would have done.
If you did take some action, would the company you work for leave you out to dry or back you up on your decision.

If the robbers saw your uniform while you were getting gas, they probably would have waited for you to leave. If you walked in on the robbery, it might have gotten ugly. If I interrupted a robbery, I would immediately show my hands, tell them I am unarmed, and cooperate. Dead heroes can't help anyone. :(

[N. A. Corbier]

The company vehicle I was riding shotgun in stopped at a Shell station. As we went through the car wash, the store was robbed at knife point. Shell station person ran out into traffic, waved down a deputy as we exited. I was like, "That's odd." Tire squealing, car shoots past us. We decided to see where the bad guy's car was going as the deputy exited and started following it, too.

Six hours later, I had finally finished all the reports. During the initial traffic stop at a red light, the bad guy struck the deputy with his car, just as we pulled up behind the deputy. He was OK, jumped in, and the pursuit was on.

Followed em, found the suspect's car in a ditch on a steep curb in Tampa proper, the deputy's car parked, and no sign of deputy or suspect. The employee I was with wasn't sure what to do, and I kinda... took over. He covered me as I checked the deputy's car to make sure it didn't have a deputy down in it, or a suspect in it, then we circled the tractor trailer lot and made contact with a fighting deputy and suspect. The sudden appearance of a black uniform shouting such commands as "show me your motherf--king hands," and "roll the f--- over or I'm going to motherf--king shoot you" at high volume distracted the bad guy enough that the deputy who was underneath him was able to reveral and mount the bad guy. Bad guy was over the deputy with a closed ASP in his hand, couldn't tell what it looked like at 30 feet. So, I was advancing and yelling verbal commands while engaged with firearm.

The guy was charged with everything we could think of. Originally, just strong arm robbery. Oh, but wait, found a crack pipe during search. Possession of drug paraphanalia. Don't you remember the guy hit you with his car? Oh, yeah. Aggarvated Battery on a Law Enforcement Officer. Obviously, he fought, so Resisting Arrest with Violence.

Worst part was it took us 10 minutes to figure out where we were. And the deputy hadn't put his location out for 15. When we finally figured out a cross street, the other deputy (There were more coming) that arrived was like, "Yeah, we had no clue where you guys were." The deputy bailed without radioing his position. :(

The aftermath was fun, at least. Got hit on by a cute traffic deputy, got to play in a crime scene and not get yelled at for it, watched a Tampa Police vs. Hillsborough County Sheriff turf war over the car, and met several HCSO sergeants and the shift Lieutenant. Nobody said anything like, "You shouldn't of stopped," just "We're glad you guys stopped and helped our deputy."

I ran out of business cards that morning, everyone was like, "Ok, so Dep. Garcia said to talk to you, since you know what happened start to finish." Exchange of business cards so that we know who we're putting in our reports, etc.

[N. A. Corbier]

If the robbers saw your uniform while you were getting gas, they probably would have waited for you to leave. If you walked in on the robbery, it might have gotten ugly. If I interrupted a robbery, I would immediately show my hands, tell them I am unarmed, and cooperate. Dead heroes can't help anyone. :(

If you walk in on a robbery, you're going to have an issue really fast. Most people don't see anything but the uniform and badge.

There were steps that I was taught to parking and entering a structure in uniform to minimize the amount of problems you'd have inside it from this sort of thing. I use them to this day.

1. Park away from the doors. This creates a distance gap between the doors and you, allowing you time to survey the scene, and if necessary, react to a situation.

2. Size up the situation in the store before you get out. Look inside the windows. Is there a problem in the store? Are all the shutters closed? How many people are in it? What are they doing? This prevents you from walking in blind.

3. Remember you are a uniformed officer, a symbol of lawful authority before you get out. Do not lower your guard or "color condition" because you are off shift. You are, until your uniform comes off, on duty as far as the public is concerned. You a threat to the criminal and a source of protection to the public. "Any port in a storm" and all that. Keep this in mind when you go in.

My company had a rule that extended "performance of duties" to convinence stores during or directly after our shift. If we were in a company vehicle, we were to remain armed at all times. Florida's 493 stated you had to disarm if "not in performance of duties" or not on "the client's site." Well, your performance of duties was driving that vehicle.

Also, if your wearing an empty holster and walk into a robbery, all the bad guy is going to take note of is gun, badge, shoot!

[Mr. Security]

I'm gonna say it ONE MORE TIME. Using the "F" word with ---- IS NOT what the Forum Administrator meant when he asked us to keep it clean. Set the right example for the new members on this forum. :mad:

[N. A. Corbier]

There are times when the word, included in a quotation, conveys the sense of urgency and purpose in a verbal command. Most of our field guys who have issued verbal commands will know exactly what the situation was when someone is giving verbal commands the Samuel L. Jackson way.

Part of tactical communication is knowing both when to be nice, and when to be abusive and verbally intimidate the suspect. When the suspect is trying to kill a fellow officer, the tactical communication method should convey speed, shock, and maximum violence of action upon immediate failure to comply.

[Mr. Security]

There are times when the word, included in a quotation, conveys the sense of urgency and purpose in a verbal command. Most of our field guys who have issued verbal commands will know exactly what the situation was when someone is giving verbal commands the Samuel L. Jackson way.

Part of tactical communication is knowing both when to be nice, and when to be abusive and verbally intimidate the suspect. When the suspect is trying to kill a fellow officer, the tactical communication method should convey speed, shock, and maximum violence of action upon immediate failure to comply.

I'm not faulting you for the way you handled the situation. I understand what you mean. Nevertheless, your experience can be posted w/o using a format that leaves little to the imagination. Even if it is simply -------, we get the idea.

When new members see the way senior members post, they will copy our example, good or bad. So far, we have been able to keep this site as an example of what professionalism means. When you compare this site with O.com, it's clear to see that this site is to be preferred. If you can support me on this, we can keep it going.

[T202]

If the robbers saw your uniform while you were getting gas, they probably would have waited for you to leave. If you walked in on the robbery, it might have gotten ugly. If I interrupted a robbery, I would immediately show my hands, tell them I am unarmed, and cooperate. Dead heroes can't help anyone. :(

I agree, if you walk in on them, cooperate and be a good witness later. Would you try and follow them when they left? I don't mean high speed pursuit, but at a distance calling 911 with the location and direction of travel.

[T202]

There are times when the word, included in a quotation, conveys the sense of urgency and purpose in a verbal command. Most of our field guys who have issued verbal commands will know exactly what the situation was when someone is giving verbal commands the Samuel L. Jackson way.

Part of tactical communication is knowing both when to be nice, and when to be abusive and verbally intimidate the suspect. When the suspect is trying to kill a fellow officer, the tactical communication method should convey speed, shock, and maximum violence of action upon immediate failure to comply.

A old veteran range officer once told me that if you ever have to pull your weapon on a high risk suspect, scream and swear at him like a madman. He may actual think your nuts enough to really want to shoot him.

[Mr. Security]

I agree, if you walk in on them, cooperate and be a good witness later. Would you try and follow them when they left? I don't mean high speed pursuit, but at a distance calling 911 with the location and direction of travel.

In a company vehicle? No. In my POV? Absolutely.

[T202]

If you walk in on a robbery, you're going to have an issue really fast. Most people don't see anything but the uniform and badge.

There were steps that I was taught to parking and entering a structure in uniform to minimize the amount of problems you'd have inside it from this sort of thing. I use them to this day.

1. Park away from the doors. This creates a distance gap between the doors and you, allowing you time to survey the scene, and if necessary, react to a situation.

2. Size up the situation in the store before you get out. Look inside the windows. Is there a problem in the store? Are all the shutters closed? How many people are in it? What are they doing? This prevents you from walking in blind.

3. Remember you are a uniformed officer, a symbol of lawful authority before you get out. Do not lower your guard or "color condition" because you are off shift. You are, until your uniform comes off, on duty as far as the public is concerned. You a threat to the criminal and a source of protection to the public. "Any port in a storm" and all that. Keep this in mind when you go in.

My company had a rule that extended "performance of duties" to convinence stores during or directly after our shift. If we were in a company vehicle, we were to remain armed at all times. Florida's 493 stated you had to disarm if "not in performance of duties" or not on "the client's site." Well, your performance of duties was driving that vehicle.

Also, if your wearing an empty holster and walk into a robbery, all the bad guy is going to take note of is gun, badge, shoot!

It doesn't go away either. Retired three years ago and I still look in the windows before going in the store. Go out to eat and sit with my back against the wall, drives my wife nuts.

[N. A. Corbier]

I only sit in the corners with my back against the wall. :) It drives my girlfriend nuts. I showed this to her, and she's like, "Oh, good, other people are driven nuts too."

[Mr. Security]

It doesn't go away either. Retired three years ago and I still look in the windows before going in the store. Go out to eat and sit with my back against the wall, drives my wife nuts.

I stay away from gas stations and fast food restaurants when it's about closing time. I also sit as close to an exit as possible so that I can "split" if I see a potential robbery coming. I want to avoid the nightmare situation of being forced to lie facedown on the floor not knowing whether the robber intends on doing more than just cleaning out the cash register.

[N. A. Corbier]

In a company vehicle? No. In my POV? Absolutely.

Following someone in a company vehicle is basically a low-speed pursuit. :) The only time I suggest this is if something really bad has happened (such as a murder or forcible felony you personally observed or have probable cause to believe the actor is the person you're following) and you are the only person who knows where the suspect is. You have 911 on the speakerphone or your dispatcher does, and you're calling it out on the air or to 911 as a pursuit.

At that point, you have to do the same thing a pursuing officer does. Pursue to maintain visual contact with the suspect vehicle, while ensuring that the safety of the public is not jeapordized.

I knew a guy who pulled up onto a burglary during mobile patrol, in Saint Petersburg (Florida). He was in a marked patrol vehicle. They brandished a weapon at him, then fled. As they were driving like madmen to get away from the company supervisor, the supervisor was calling 911 on speakerphone. SPPD requested that he follow the car. He did, no lights, normal speeds. The suspect vehicle started running reds to evade chase, and the PD supervisor advised dispatchers to have the patrol car turn on its overheads and "keep up with the car, don't lose it till you get a tag." Old SPPD trick, "We don't pursue. We accelerate to get a tag number. It might take awhile, though."

So, you have this BG running 55 MPH (normal speed of traffic) in a 35 (Which nobody obeys), running red lights. People kinda figured out its time to stop when they saw amber/white lights going off everywhere.

SPPD finally got the two suspects after they bailed from the car and were chased down by the supervisor and SPPD. The PD supervisor suggested to our patrol supervisor that they install a digital air horn to warn motorists as well as help SPPD find the car.

We would of been crucified if we'd done that in a city to the north, and lauded if we did it in a city across the bay. Goes to show you how sometimes, the police will enjoy the fact that private citizen's aren't bound by police policy. No pursuit policy? That only applies to SPPD.

The second you follow someone in a marked company vehicle, or even an unmarked, you just became a pursuing officer attempting to make an arrest. You have to be extremely careful - all the liability concerns of a police pursuit apply to you! If the suspect drives crazy, and all you're doing is following him, they still might consider it a "pursuit" and try to go after you civilly.

[Mr. Security]

.......
The second you follow someone in a marked company vehicle, or even an unmarked, you just became a pursuing officer attempting to make an arrest. You have to be extremely careful - all the liability concerns of a police pursuit apply to you! If the suspect drives crazy, and all you're doing is following him, they still might consider it a "pursuit" and try to go after you civilly.

Exactly. My company would fire me in a heartbeat if I used their vehicle in such a situation. "Here's your medal of valor. Incidentally, you're FIRED!" :eek:

[Tennsix]

There are times when the word, included in a quotation, conveys the sense of urgency and purpose in a verbal command. Most of our field guys who have issued verbal commands will know exactly what the situation was when someone is giving verbal commands the Samuel L. Jackson way.

Part of tactical communication is knowing both when to be nice, and when to be abusive and verbally intimidate the suspect. When the suspect is trying to kill a fellow officer, the tactical communication method should convey speed, shock, and maximum violence of action upon immediate failure to comply.
I do not make it a habit to curse in the performance of my duties but there times when a few well placed curse words do serve a purpose. There are some people that do not understand the concept of civility and one has to speak in their tongue to effectively communicate.

[HotelSecurity]

Working in a suit & tie with a badge on a chain around my neck or clipped to my pocket is an advantage in a situation like this. Whenever I respond to a call for a disturbance in the bar or restaurant I remove the badge & hide the walkie-talkie. I enter & observe before I put the id back on.

In dealing with these types of calls I have another problem. I regularly get a call "Security is wanted at the bar" PERIOD! No other info. I call the Operator back & ask "what for?" I'm told "I didn't ask". This drives me nuts :mad: Am I walking into a robbery, do I need to bring a first aid kit, a fire extinguisher? I keep telling the Operators over & over that they MUST get as much information as possible when giving me this type of call but still it happens often.

[N. A. Corbier]

Working in a suit & tie with a badge on a chain around my neck or clipped to my pocket is an advantage in a situation like this. Whenever I respond to a call for a disturbance in the bar or restaurant I remove the badge & hide the walkie-talkie. I enter & observe before I put the id back on.

In dealing with these types of calls I have another problem. I regularly get a call "Security is wanted at the bar" PERIOD! No other info. I call the Operator back & ask "what for?" I'm told "I didn't ask". This drives me nuts :mad: Am I walking into a robbery, do I need to bring a first aid kit, a fire extinguisher? I keep telling the Operators over & over that they MUST get as much information as possible when giving me this type of call but still it happens often.

We had a policy on that. Find out why we're going there, or we won't respond. Period.

[1stWatch]

If you walk in on a robbery, you're going to have an issue really fast. Most people don't see anything but the uniform and badge...

...Remember you are a uniformed officer, a symbol of lawful authority before you get out. Do not lower your guard or "color condition" because you are off shift. You are, until your uniform comes off, on duty as far as the public is concerned. You a threat to the criminal and a source of protection to the public. "Any port in a storm" and all that. Keep this in mind when you go in.

My company had a rule that extended "performance of duties" to convinence stores during or directly after our shift. If we were in a company vehicle, we were to remain armed at all times. Florida's 493 stated you had to disarm if "not in performance of duties" or not on "the client's site." Well, your performance of duties was driving that vehicle.

Also, if your wearing an empty holster and walk into a robbery, all the bad guy is going to take note of is gun, badge, shoot!

This is precisely why I object to mandatory removal of weapons before entering such a facility. Texas has a law that states we may only be armed while at our "place of assignment" or while travelling directly to or from the place of assignment or while conducting duties as a security officer. Unfortunately, the interpretation of that law has been applied such that "place of assignment" is only at places where a contractual agreement to provide service is in place and "conducting duties" only applies if an incident such as the one you described is actually in progress. Walk in with an empty holster while an armed robbery is in progress and you're most likely going to get shot or get someone else shot. Walk in with the gun on when a robbery isn't in progress and you risk getting locked up for a felony.

[1stWatch]

Following someone in a company vehicle is basically a low-speed pursuit. :) The only time I suggest this is if something really bad has happened (such as a murder or forcible felony you personally observed or have probable cause to believe the actor is the person you're following) and you are the only person who knows where the suspect is. You have 911 on the speakerphone or your dispatcher does, and you're calling it out on the air or to 911 as a pursuit...

...The second you follow someone in a marked company vehicle, or even an unmarked, you just became a pursuing officer attempting to make an arrest. You have to be extremely careful - all the liability concerns of a police pursuit apply to you! If the suspect drives crazy, and all you're doing is following him, they still might consider it a "pursuit" and try to go after you civilly.

Those rules basically apply to my area as well; however, there have been problems with it. Some departments here would laud action such as what you described as excellent work and perfectly legal. Others, such as that of the big fat ugly D, would take such action as impersonation of police and you would be locked up if it involved flashing lights and siren or air horn equipment. They're really sensitive about that stuff and get their noses bent about it easily. We've also had problems with their 911 ordering our people to stop following, which is for prevention of civil liability on the part of the city, but it makes it easier for the bad guy to sue you just for following him since 911 told you otherwise.

[1stWatch]

...In dealing with these types of calls I have another problem. I regularly get a call "Security is wanted at the bar" PERIOD! No other info. I call the Operator back & ask "what for?" I'm told "I didn't ask"...

We have a group of inexperienced security dispatchers like that. We get a call that sounds something like "the resident at apt 101 wants to speak to you" with no subject matter or details of the call. We show up and find out somebody's in the apartment smashing it up. Thanks for asking the caller what he needed us for, dillweed. I really wish they'd just eliminate that dept of the company and have the incoming calls forwarded to the supervisor's phone.

[N. A. Corbier]

We have a group of inexperienced security dispatchers like that. We get a call that sounds something like "the resident at apt 101 wants to speak to you" with no subject matter or details of the call. We show up and find out somebody's in the apartment smashing it up. Thanks for asking the caller what he needed us for, dillweed. I really wish they'd just eliminate that dept of the company and have the incoming calls forwarded to the supervisor's phone.

If you're going to have dispatchers, they should be trained to some standard. Doesn't have to be a police standard, but clear expectations and training should be given.

[1stWatch]

If you're going to have dispatchers, they should be trained to some standard. Doesn't have to be a police standard, but clear expectations and training should be given.

Unfortunately the director of patrol isn't in charge of dispatch or they would have taken remedial training in that regard by now. However, since the powers that be are in the positions they are in... (dysfunction syndrome)
They're not a complete waste since they do facilitate effective enough communication between alarm clients and respective p.d.'s to give a reasonable satisfaction to those clients and they do dispatch applicable calls to guards or patrol officers swiftly.

At least they are not given actual authority by the company to override a supervisor's orders or even take people off the clock like they were at another company I worked for that was much more severely dysfunctional. This group of people actually tries and normally has a good attitude about doing the job, which is more than I can say for others I've had the experience of working with.

Then again, that's just 5 cents of mine. I don't have any control over what those people do since I'm just a peon. :)

[HotelSecurity]

In my case it's the hotel switchboard Operator that dispatches us. It's a 500 room hotel with place for 2 Operators. There is one during the day shift & one on the afternoon shift. Overnight the calls are transfered to the one Night Auditor who works as Auditor/Front Desk Clerk/Operator/Night Manager!

[1stWatch]

In my case it's the hotel switchboard Operator that dispatches us. It's a 500 room hotel with place for 2 Operators. There is one during the day shift & one on the afternoon shift. Overnight the calls are transfered to the one Night Auditor who works as Auditor/Front Desk Clerk/Operator/Night Manager!

It's no wonder you get insufficient information about calls since non-security personnel answer the phones and give what they have to you. It would be nice to have a separate line for security that is answered by one of your staff instead.

[Bill Warnock]

I only sit in the corners with my back against the wall. :) It drives my girlfriend nuts. I showed this to her, and she's like, "Oh, good, other people are driven nuts too."
Nathan, my wife thinks that after a number in "retirement" I could act like the rest of the human race and sit where you want to. I have to remind her that there are certain people who do not take kindly to have been sent to prison based on what you did.
It took years to hone those skills and a sufficient number of near misses to keep them fresh in my mind. LEO or SO, some folks place great stock in the old saying, "Revenge is a dish best served cold."
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Mr. Security]

I do not make it a habit to curse in the performance of my duties but there times when a few well placed curse words do serve a purpose. There are some people that do not understand the concept of civility and one has to speak in their tongue to effectively communicate.

Perhaps. However, I don't think civility is a problem here on this forum and I'd like to keep it that way. :)

[Mr. Security]

We had a policy on that. Find out why we're going there, or we won't respond. Period.

I agree. When I first started in dispatch, I quickly learned that officers want as much information as possible about the call they are responding to. That included checking in-house for any prior contact that LE might have had with the parties involved.

If a dispatcher failed to warn the officers, you can bet that their next stop was back at HQ to kick your rear end for risking theirs.

[Mr. Security]

Nathan, my wife thinks that after a number in "retirement" I could act like the rest of the human race and sit where you want to. I have to remind her that there are certain people who do not take kindly to have been sent to prison based on what you did.....

You can say that again! I just finished reading about two separate ambushes on the police at ODMP. Be safe and watch your back.

[HotelSecurity]

It's no wonder you get insufficient information about calls since non-security personnel answer the phones and give what they have to you. It would be nice to have a separate line for security that is answered by one of your staff instead.

I AM the Security staff :D

[darrell]

A old veteran range officer once told me that if you ever have to pull your weapon on a high risk suspect, scream and swear at him like a madman. He may actual think your nuts enough to really want to shoot him.


Thats whats I was trained to do when I carried my gun.

I heard it works really well.

[Bill Warnock]

Thats whats I was trained to do when I carried my gun.

I heard it works really well.
In the sheriffs academy we were taught to assess the situation, and if warranted, make the bad guy think you were crazier than they were.
Today the term, I believe, is mental judo.
In the modern era, that type of behavior would be looked upon as antagonizing the subject causing his behavior to escalate.
Hopefully the folks writing doctrine have spend some time in the field and at least scared half-to-death a time or two.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[1stWatch]

Oh my goodness, out of the f---ing pan and into the f---. Wait, I think you may be objecting to another "f" word. :p

Perhaps. However, I don't think civility is a problem here on this forum and I'd like to keep it that way. :)

[N. A. Corbier]

In the sheriffs academy we were taught to assess the situation, and if warranted, make the bad guy think you were crazier than they were.
<snip>
Enjoy the day,
Bill

An exchange I thought was funny:
EDI Officer: "I think Nate was going to shoot him."
Me: "I was not. He put the toy gun down."
Tampa Police Officer: "Oh, they all think you're insane, and will kill them all."
Me: "O rly."
Tampa Police Officer: "Its keeping you guys alive out here. Keep it up."

This was after we started dismantling the local drug trade on the property, and really pissing some folks off. Two teens with a toy gun wrapped in electrical tape approached us. The "weapon" was in the kid's waistband. I got out "gun" before drawing down.

[aka Bull]

[QUOTE=.....In dealing with these types of calls I have another problem. I regularly get a call "Security is wanted at the bar" PERIOD! No other info. I call the Operator back & ask "what for?" I'm told "I didn't ask". This drives me nuts :mad: Am I walking into a robbery, do I need to bring a first aid kit, a fire extinguisher? I keep telling the Operators over & over that they MUST get as much information as possible when giving me this type of call but still it happens often.[/QUOTE]

Our "dispatchers" in our hospital are the hospital operators. They too send us to calls of a "disturbance" on the floors with little or no info. We continually emphasize the "need for them to get more info".

Might I suggest you make them up a checklist of basic questions you - as the security officer - would like asked the moment your operators are asked to send security. Might improve what info your operators get for you before you respond.

[GCMC Security]

Our "dispatchers" in our hospital are the hospital operators. They too send us to calls of a "disturbance" on the floors with little or no info. We continually emphasize the "need for them to get more info".

Might I suggest you make them up a checklist of basic questions you - as the security officer - would like asked the moment your operators are asked to send security. Might improve what info your operators get for you before you respond.

Great Idea, I am currently working with the lead hospital operator to establish a better communication plan

[N. A. Corbier]

This is an excellent idea. This way, instead of having to commit to memory something, they have a little checklist. If you have the budget, write the checklist on a half sheet of paper with enough room for written answers under each question. Laminate it. Distribute with alcohol pens.

Instant dispatch call sheet.

[1stWatch]

One patrol company I worked for had call sheets for the dispatcher/operator to fill out. We had various ones for "disturbance call", "alarm", "break-in", "vandalism", etc. It made operations quite a bit smoother.